RootsChat.Com
Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Topic started by: Benny Gillies on Sunday 02 August 15 17:21 BST (UK)
-
Can anyone help with birth place and date for James Gillies 1877. His parents were Robert Gillies and Ann or Annie Cameron.
-
There are 6 matches for that name and date on http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/
Fees are very moderate £7 buys you 30 credits, it cost 1 credit to view the results from your search which will name parents and 5 credits to view the original record. If used wisely you can get up to 5 certificates. NB: Broaden your search to give more options so that you can choose the right one.
Colin
-
Hi ,
Is this the parents marriage ?
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XYSJ-H9Q
ev
-
Yes I beleive this is the parents marriage.
James married Jeanie Wyllie on 23/02/1907 and he was listed as staying at Haspielaw near Hamilton at time of marriage. His father Robert died 1945 and is burried at Lossiemouth.
-
Yes I beleive this is the parents marriage.
James married Jeanie Wyllie on 23/02/1907 and he was listed as staying at Haspielaw near Hamilton at time of marriage. His father Robert died 1945 and is burried at Lossiemouth.
They fairly got about!
Where was Jeanie Wyllie from?
(are you the bookseller BTW?)
-
My grandmother Jeanie Wyllie was from Ochiltree. She is listed as Jeanie on the record of marriage I found but my father's marriage certificate lists her as Jane.
I used to be a bookseller but I sold my business and retired 4 years ago. I am guessing yo may have been a customer or I have met you at a Book Fair?
-
Have you found them on any census records?
-
Found the couple on 1881 and 1891 census but they didn't have a son James??
In 1881 - they had a John (b.8/6/1876 Drainie, Moray) 4
Jane 2 (born 1878 Duffus)
Robert 1 (born 1879 Duffus)
1891 - children Robert 11, William L. 8, Maggie Ann 5, Alex. Grigor 1 plus nephew Hugh Cameron 11 (son John is working as a servant on a farm)
Robert bc.1857 Aberdeen, Annie bc.1857 Elgin/Dallas?, Moray.
1881/1891/1901 show no James Gillies - so, it looks like son John changed his name to James between 1901 and 1907.
Annette
-
Annette
Thanks for that. I had already found the census record you have given me and did not find James listed. I am fairly new to family history research and had not considered a name change. As there are no James listed in the 1901 census this seems to be the most likely conclusion.
You mention John working on a farm. Was the farm name listed?
I have a copy of the statuary marriage record for the marriage of James/John's father Robert Gillies marrying Ann Cameron. Robert's father is listed as Joseph Gillies and his mother is listed as Ann Gillies M.S. Asher (deceased) but I have a copy of Old Parish register which lists Robert being born the lawful son of son of John Gillies and Ann Macbeth. Should I presume them that John also changed his name to Joseph and he was married twice i.e. to Ann MacBeth and Ann Asher? How could I work out which Ann was Robert's mother? Maybe this is obvious to an experienced researche but I am a bit confused. Any help would be appreciated.
-
My grandmother Jeanie Wyllie was from Ochiltree. She is listed as Jeanie on the record of marriage I found but my father's marriage certificate lists her as Jane.
Thanks. She isn't one of my Wyllies then.
I used to be a bookseller but I sold my business and retired 4 years ago. I am guessing yo may have been a customer or I have met you at a Book Fair?
I was a customer, and even managed to visit your shop once, and I have certainly seen your stalls at more than one book fair - though I now ration myself to a maximum of one book fair a year for the sake of my bank balance and the space in the house.
-
Afraid this one has got me beat!
Robert Gillies consistently says he was born in Aberdeenshire and the latest census actually specifies the place Buchan. Can find no trace of him.
Joseph Gillies and Ann Asher - whom he gives as his parents when he married - can find no children baptised to this couple, nor can I find a marriage for them or find them on census.
John Gillies and Anne McBeth/McBain (there are 2 marriage/banns entries for a John Gillies and an Anne - one gives her name as McBean 19/6/1840 Drainie, and the other as McBeth one day later, 20/6/1840 Elgin. I feel sure this is the same couple. In 1851 they have 2 sons - William 9 and John 5 - cannot find baptisms for either. As to the Robert bp.1854 Drainie - I think he must have died as in 1861 at Drainie, John and Anne just have eldest son William.
I've also searched for Robert under surname Asher - it's an odd quirk in Scotland that children born illegitimately often have the surname of their natural father. Can find nothing under Asher either.
Quite what the key is here I don't know - Robert seems to appear out of nowhere when he marries as I cannot find him on census before then. However, the one consistency is that he gives he birthplace as Aberdeenshire, the most recent census specifying Buchan!
Sorry I can't be of more help. The farm where John Gillies was working in 1891 was named Rosebrae Farm, Bothy.
Annette
-
I can cope with McBeth <-> McBean and even John -> James, but Joseph -> John and Asher -> McBean seems to me to be a change too far.
LIBINDX http://libindx.moray.gov.uk/mainmenu.asp has a record for Robert Gillies, born c. 1854, parents Joseph Gillies and Ann Asher, married Ann Cameron 1874 in Lhanbryde, died 8 December 1945 at Ashgrove, Dalmunach, Carron and buried at Lossiemouth with his wife, who died on 7 March 1946 in Lhanbryde. There's a death notice in the Elgin Courant on 14 December 1945.
According to this, Robert lived at Coral Peel, which is a couple of miles south-east-ish of Lossiemouth.
See http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/1085608 and
http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/179085
I am fairly sure that I remember discussion of Coral Peel in a genealogy forum somewhere, somewhen, but I can't remember where or when!
It's not far from Rosebrae http://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NJ1764 or from Waterton www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NJ1866 where Robert and family were living in 1881.
She is listed as Jeanie on the record of marriage I found but my father's marriage certificate lists her as Jane.
Jane/Jean/Jean(n)ie are totally interchangeable. (You will also be told that Jane/Jean/Janet are also interchangeable, but in my experience this is rare. Janet is interchangeable with Jessie, and I have come across more families with both a Jane/Jean(ie) and a Janet/Jessie than I have Jane/Jean(ie)s who were also called Janet.)
I now speculate.
Robert says he was born in Buchan, which is rather vague, covering several parishes including Fraserburgh and Peterhead. This area was a stronghold of the Episcopal Church. The New Statistical Account of Peterhead, for instance, says that there were in the parish 1400 to 1500 members of the Episcopalian congregation, while the population according to the 1841 census was 6,695 (probably un under-estimate because a significant number of parishioners would have been absent in connection with fishing).
So maybe the reason why no-one has found a record of Joseph Gillies and Ann Asher is because they belonged to an Episcopalian congregation somewhere in Buchan whose boundaries did not match those of the Church of Scotland parishes, so their marriage and Robert's baptism are not in the OPRs? And could the family's absence from the census be because they were following the fishing?
-
Hello again
I am confused about Robert Gillies you mention being born Aberdeenshire.
A good number of years ago I had a brief foray into my roots and at that time I sent away for extracts of the entries in Old Parish Register which I have now found.
I have a copy of the entry (Parish of Drainie) for the birth of Robert Gillies: "Robert lawful son of John Gillies Lossiemouth and his wife Ann Macbeth was born March 7th and baptised March 8th 1854 Witnesses Mrs Milven or Miller? Midwife and Mary MacBeth Lossiemouth"
The confusing thing here is that Robert's marriage to Ann Cameron states his mother as Ann Asher (deceased) and Father Joseph Gillies Plougman (deceased)
I also have an entry for (Parish of Elgin )the marriage of John Gillies farm servant in the parish of Elgin to Anne Macbeth in the Parish of Drainie. Married 20/06/1840 Parish Church of Elgin.
I am wodering if John and Joseph are the same person? It doesn't however explain the discrepancy with Ann MacBeth and Ann Asher.
Glad of all your help so far. Thanks
Benny
-
I have just found a note that I made after speaking to a late aunt a number of years ago. She told me that Robert Gillies was brought up by an aunt and his mother was dead at the time of his marriage. Do you think think Ann Asher could be the aunt and the entry on his marriage record could be wrong???
-
My immediate reaction to all this is that there must be two different Robert Gillieses, one the son of Joseph G and Ann Asher, and the other the son of John G and Ann MacBeth.
There is a triple discrepancy: father's given name, mother's surname and place of birth.
Generally speaking, marriage records are the most accurate way of finding out who someone's parents were. Yes, they can occasionally make a mistake with their parents' names if they have not been brought up by their own, married, parents.
It is very important to realise that the OPRs in Edinburgh do not contain every birth/baptism or proclamation/marriage that ever occurred. There are all sorts of reasons why a baptism was not recorded, and estimates of the proportion that went unrecorded vary from 25% to 50% depending on whom you speak to.
Therefore, just because Robert G, son of John G and Ann Macbeth, is the only matching person in the OPRs, you cannot safely assume that he is the right one without any supporting evidence, especially when he tells you that his parents are Joseph G and Ann Asher.
Ann MacBeath, widow of John Gillies, labourer, died in Lossiemouth in 1888 aged 67. Therefore she did not die when her son Robert was very young. If your late aunt is right about your Robert being brought up by an aunt and that his mother was dead by the time of his marriage, then this is evidence against your Robert being the son of John G and Ann MacBeth. Unless he was lying, of course, in which case all bets are off.
There are one or two details which must be on the marriage certificate and which could be very useful. First, does it say that Joseph Gillies was deceased? Second, how, exactly, does it give Ann Asher's name - is she 'Ann Gillies M S Asher' or is she 'Ann Asher'? Third, does the marriage certificate say that Ann Asher was deceased?
-
Hi Benny,
Just joining in here to say I agree completely with Forfarian's post.
I think you need to concentrate on the info provided by Robert when he married, he may have given some wrong details :-\ , especially if both parents died when he was young but it is at the moment your only documented evidence of who his parents were.
Knowing if Ann Asher is recorded as Ann Gillies m.s. Asher or just Ann Asher on Robert's marriage cert. is important.
I have found a death of a Joseph Gillies born circa 1828 at Rothes Morayshire in 1858 -making him approx. 30.
I struggled to find this man on the 1851 Census - but finally think I located him in Bellie where he is boarding with people called Geddes . Note that this man is called Joseph Golish ???
GEDDES John Head W M 63 Chelsea Pensioner Banffshire - Bellie
GEDDES George Son U M 35 Salmon Fisher Banffshire - Bellie
FINLAY Elspet Servnt U F 23 House Servant Morayshire - Duffus
GOLISH Joseph Boardr U M 22 Salmon Fisher Morayshire - Rothes
I wonder if Golish is a mistranscription or a mispronunciation of the name Gillies. Incidentially I have also come across the name Gillies recorded as Glass. I also note that this man is a salmon fisher in 1851 not a ploughman (as per Robert's marriage cert) but he could have been trying a new occupation! His birthplace is Rothes which obviously is rural, so he probably had a agricultural background.
So apologies if all this with the salmon fisher is a red herring - pardon the pun. But I thought I would draw him to your attention .
Looby :)
-
I am confused about Robert Gillies you mention being born Aberdeenshire.
If we've found the right Robert Gillies and Annie on census he just gives 'Aberdeenshire' on 1881/1891/1901 census and the most recent says 'Buchan, Aberdeenshire' so only stating what he detailed as his birthplace.
Because of the complexities of this thread re. this Robert's parents, no sighting of a son James (only a John born in the right time) have you located James and his wife on the census in 1911 to confirm his birthplace? If not, I think you need to do this as it looks like we need to dot all the 'i's' and cross all the 't's' on this one to ensure we have the right family.
Annette
-
Looby's find is interesting, because he's the first possible sighting of a Joseph Gillies as potential father.
I also noticed that in the household of my great-great-aunt Grace or Grizel Cruickshank, widow of James Stephen, farmer at Coxton, Lhanbryde in 1871, there is a Robert Gillies, farm servant, aged 14, born Rothes.
So curiosity got the better of me and I looked up the 1874 marriage certificate, from which I see that Robert Gillies gave his age as 19 and that he was residing at Coxton, Lhanbryde at the time of his marriage. He gave his father's name as Joseph Gillies, ploughman, deceased, and his mother as Ann Gillies MS Asher, deceased.
So we have Joseph Gillies dying in Rothes in 1858, and Robert Gillies, born Rothes, living in Lhanbryde in 1871 and Robert Gillies marrying in Lhanbryde in 1874.
There's a Joseph Gillies, aged 15, an ag lab at Earnside, Alves, in the 1841 census. His age is a bit out, but could it be 'your' Joseph, I wonder?
Also took a look at the death of Joseph Gillies in 1858. There are some interesting details.
First, he was unmarried. So if he was Robert's father, Robert was illegitimate, which would explain the absence of records in the OPRs, but would suggest that Robert was being less than strictly truthful when he registered his marriage. This is pretty common practice to conceal illegitimacy.
Second, he died at Hillylands of Inchberry, which is the northern extremity of the parish of Rothes, lying on the left bank of the River Spey. See http://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NJ3155
Third, his parents were James Gillies, ag lab, and Anne Riddoch, deceased. Not Anne Gillies MS Riddoch. Therefore Joseph was illegitimate, because his parents were not married to one another.
Fourth, he was buried in Dipple kirkard, not Rothes itself, or Dundurcas. Dipple is the closest burial ground to Inchberry.
Fifth, the place of burial was certified by William Gillies 'who had charge of the funeral'. There is just one Williiam Gillies of suitable age in the 1851 and 1861 censuses of Rothes. In 1851 the exact address isn't given, and William is 75, but in 1861 it is Inchberry Hill Farmhouse, and William is a widower, aged 82, born Rothes.
Sixth, the informant was John Gillies, uncle. The household of the above William Gillies includes William's son John, who in 1861 is described as a widower, aged 54. In 1851 he was widowed, aged 40.
William Gillies and Helen Clark had at least two sons, both born in the parish of Rothes: James in 1805 and John in 1808.
James Gillies, aged 55, with wife Elspet and a numerous family, is listed in a house on Hill of Inchberry in 1861, described as pauper and salmon fisher. In 1851 he is described as a labourer with one acre of land.
So pulling that all together I deduce that Joseph Gillies, being the son of James Gillies, was the illegitimate grandson of William Gillies. The family home was at Inchberry. In spite of what Robert says on his marriage certificate, I speculate that Robert himself was also illegitimate, and born in Rothes just before the start of civil registration.
That still leaves open the question why Robert consistently said in later censuses that he was born in Aberdeenshire. Was he trying to distance himself from the Gillies family in Inchberry, and if so, why? Or have I got the complete wrong end of a tempting stick?
I think that if I were you my next step would be to take myself off to the National Records of Scotland in General Register House, Edinburgh, or the Mitchell Library in Glasgow and read through the digitised minutes of the Rothes Kirk Session in the hope that the Session noticed, and took as dim a view of the arrivals of Joseph and Robert as it did of the arrivals of several of my relatives in Rothes in the 19th century.
Then I would go downstairs to the Scotland's People Centre and look up the deaths of every Robert Gillies/Gillis/Gillice etc born within a couple of years on 1854, to see if the son of John G and Ann MacBeath can be eliminated as a possible candidate. If he died somewhere and somewhen else, they you know for certain that he can't be 'your' Robert. Note that not finding his death doesn't prove that he is yours - it could mean that he died outwith Scotland.
I am now beginning vaguely to recall doing some work on this Gillies or Gillis or Gillice family (spellings vary!) many years ago. I will see if I can remember when, why, for whom, and where I put the resulting information.
-
Oooft, you have been a busy lady Forfarian.
I had just discovered Robert Gillies with the Stephen family at Mains of Coxton and was pretty excited when I managed to decipher Rothes as his place of birth.
I'm still looking for him on 1861 Census but no luck yet - I don't think he's on it as a Gillies.
But I think Forfarian's finds and deductions are excellent and would agree with the scenario re. Joseph and Robert's births. Both look to be born out of wedlock - not uncommon ;) and both use their fathers names.
I'll keep having a look at 1861,
Looby :)
-
I'm with you, Forfarian - I too believe Robert's parents were unmarried and that his father was the Joseph Gillies who died in 1858.
But which Ann/Anne Asher was his mother especially with absence of baptism for Robert?
Been trying to follow certain ladies of this name who appear in 1841 and 1851 census to see what happened to them. Also, if they had sisters (who'd probably married themselves) who'd taken in young Robert. If only we could locate him in 1861 it might give us some answers but no joy for me yet.
Another thing I noticed was that one of Robert's sons was named Alexander Grigor Gillies - one of the Ann's I'm looking at had a sister Margaret who possibly was the one who married a John Grigor i6/2/1852 St. Andrews Lhanbryd - was hoping when I found them on 1861 they'd have a Robert with them but no joy there. Worth a shot though.
So frustrating, isn't it?
Annette
-
I have just found in Drainie in 1861
John Gillion (sic FreeCEN), 59 labourer, born Speymouth
Ann Mcbain Gillion, wife, 41, born England
William Gillion, son, 20, joiner, born Drainie.
No Robert, aged 6, as you would expect. So did this Robert G die in infancy? In which case there would be no point in looking for him in the SP deaths registers.
1871: Ann Gillies, widow, 51, annuitant, born Norwich.
1881: Ann Gillies, widow, 61, born England
-
I have just found in Drainie in 1861
John Gillion (sic FreeCEN), 59 labourer, born Speymouth
Ann Mcbain Gillion, wife, 41, born England
William Gillion, son, 20, joiner, born Drainie.
No Robert, aged 6, as you would expect. So did this Robert G die in infancy? In which case there would be no point in looking for him in the SP deaths registers.
1871: Ann Gillies, widow, 51, annuitant, born Norwich.
1881: Ann Gillies, widow, 61, born England
I agree Forfarian, Looks like that Robert died very young.
I am liking the look of the Ann Asher age 17 who is living with her grandmother Isobel Gow age 77 at St. Andrew Llanbryde on the 1851 Census. Isobel is widowed but hag been married to John Asher. There are at least 2 sons Alexander born 1800 and John born 1803. Looks like they may still be in the area. I have drawn a blank discovering the fate of this Ann ??
Looby :)
-
Yes, I have noted that 17-year-old Ann as well, and I can't find her in 1861. Perhaps she died giving birth to Robert?
Still doesn't explain why we can't find Robert in 1861, or why he says he was born in Aberdeenshire/Buchan.
-
Yes, I have noted that 17-year-old Ann as well, and I can't find her in 1861. Perhaps she died giving birth to Robert?
Still doesn't explain why we can't find Robert in 1861, or why he says he was born in Aberdeenshire/Buchan.
Yes I'm puzzled by the fact that Robert is (so far) missing - especially as if his age on the 1871 Census , the subsequent 1881 Census and his marriage certificate are to be believed he was born 1856/1857 and therefore there should be a Statutory Birth record :-\ Mind you I have a similar problem with a GGGgrandfather of mine who was also illegitmate born circa 1856 possibly with the name Smith in Glasgow :o - I have never been able to definitely find his birth cert !
Added - although I do have a candidate.
Looby :)
-
An Anne Asher married a George Wilson in 1860 in Gamrie. They appear to be living in Falkland Fife in 1861 with a newborn daughter Jane. They had a number of children born in Fife in subsequent years. Anne was age 29 and had been born in Hillside, Banffshire. Perhaps a match for the 1851 Ann already mentioned.
Isobel
-
Perhaps, but there is a 19-year-old Ann Asher, born in Gamrie, visiting the household of Alexander Asher in Gamrie in 1851. In 1841 she is in the same household so could be a daughter.
There's an Ann Asher marrying Thomas Fraser in 1856. This couple were in Forres in 1871, Ann shown as born in Duffus, aged 52, but as there is a child, Elizabeth, born 1869, I suspect an error in Ann's age. There is a 17-year-old Ann Asher in Duffus in 1851 as well as the 17-year-old in St Andrews-Lhanbryd.
-
There is an Ann Asher aged 26 born Urquhart Morayshire on the 1861 Census at Elgin.
She is unmarried and working as a domestic servant in the household of a MacDonald family.
3 Reidhaven Street Elgin.
MACDONALD James Head 34 Teacher Of English M A Morayshire - Elgin
MACDONALD Margaret Wife 33 Teacher's Wife Morayshire - Forres
MACDONALD James Son 2 Morayshire - Elgin
MACDONALD Robert Son 8m Morayshire - Elgin
ASHER Ann Servant 26 Domestic Servant Morayshire - Urquhart
MCDONALD Jane Servant 15 Domestic Servant Morayshire - Elgin
Think this looks like the Ann Asher from St Andrew Llanbryde in 1851.
Looby :)
-
Ok bear with me folks but with the suspected name change from John to James Gillies how about a Joseph to Robert ??
Long long shot I know but there is a 4 year old Joseph Gillis on the 1861 Census living at Inchberry Hill Farmhouse Rothes and his place of birth is Aberdeenshire , Aberchirder. He is recorded as being the Great Grandson of the Head of house.
GILLIS William Head W 82 Farmer 16 Acres Morayshire - Rothes
GILLIS Margaret Dau U 59 Housekeeper Morayshire - Rothes
GILLIS John Son W 54 Farmer With Father Morayshire - Rothes
GILLIS Margaret Grndau U 20 Agricultural Labourer Morayshire - Rothes
GILLIS Ann Grndau U 17 Agricultural Labourer Morayshire - Rothes
GILLIS Helen Grndau U 15 Agricultural Labourer Morayshire - Rothes
RIACH William Ggrson 4m Morayshire - Rothes
GILLIS George Ggrson 8 Scholar Morayshire - Elgin
GILLIS Joseph Ggrson 4 Aberdeenshire - Aberchirder
Added - Just realised that this family have been mentioned by Forfarian and that William Gillis is the Grandfather of the Joseph Gillies/Gillis/Gilosh who died in 1858.
Looby :)
-
I really believe you have hit the nail on the head, Looby! Was a bit dubious at first regarding change of name from Joseph to Robert (but then again, he may have been born as Robert and family called him Joseph - who knows).
However, George Gillies aged 8 in 1861, married in 1873 and his father is given as - wait for it - Joseph Gillies, Ploughman (deceased). As with Robert/Joseph, can find no baptism for said George. The problem is that the marriage certificate is virtually illegible and although I can read the name of his father (just) I cannot make out anything at all for the name of his mother. The words there appear longer to me than 'Ann Asher' so perhaps Joseph had George with someone else. So George would appear to be a brother (or half-brother) of Robert (Joseph).
Anyway, I have contacted SP and explained the problem and that it is his mothers details I am particularly interested in. If they cannot provide a clearer copy perhaps they are able to read what it says for his mother.
Will post further when I hear back from them.
Annette
-
The marriage record of Robert Gillies 17th October St Andrews Lhanbryde to Ann Cameron states his residence as Coxton and his father as Joseph Gillies Ploughman (Deceased)
His mother is listed as Ann Gillies M.S. Asher (Deceased)
Hope this makes things clearer.
-
That's a very interesting idea. I checked the SP index and there is only one death of a Joseph Gillies born 1856 plus or minus 3 years - and that is Joseph Wilson Gillies, son of James Gillies and Elisabeth Don, born 1853 at Kinnaird, Perthshire. So it's anyone's guess what became of that 4-year-old in 1861.
One slight fly in the ointment is that a 4-year-old in 1861 would be just 17 in 1874, which is extraordinarily young for a farm labourer to marry. Even 19, his claimed age on his marriage certificate, is very young.
Also Aberchirder is in the parish of Marnoch, which is in Banffshire, not Aberdeenshire.
-
Benny Gillies - yes, was well aware of Robert's given parents but if the 'Joseph' aged 4 g/grandson found by Looby was actually your Robert was trying to see if the George Gillies 8, also a g/grandson, was also a son of Joseph Gillies, Ploughman and to see who was given as his mother, i.e. was she also named Ann Asher, or was it possibly slightly different such as different first name or different surname. The only occasion when Robert's parents are given are at his marriage - when he died aged 91 in 1945 the informant clearly didn't know these details as his parents details are blank.
Joseph Gillies are thin on the ground as has been found and to now know that Georges' father was also a Joseph Gillies, Ploughman (deceased) seemed to much of a coincidence to ignore. Plus the 4 year old Joseph in 1861 effectively 'disappears' at the time when Robert first appears by this name in census in 1871.
Forfarian - I noticed at the outset that Robert would only have been 17 at marriage (not 19) but his age in 1871 was 14, 1881 24, 1891 34, 1901 45 so he was pretty consistent with a circa birthdate of 1857 hence the 4 year old 'Joseph' in 1861 looking a strong possibility for him.
Clearly, working 'inside the box' from given facts is not panning out so one then has to start looking 'outside the box' so to speak.
What we now know is that Robert's father was a Joseph Gillies, ploughman, George (bc.1853) was also a son of a Joseph Gillies, ploughman, the only likely candidate for such Joseph died in 1858 (single), son of a James (son of William), and that in 1861 living with William the household includes 2 g/grandsons i.e. George 8 and Joseph (later Robert?) 4, who are both known to be sons of Joseph Gillies, ploughman.
Phew, hope I've explained that clearly enough.
Annette
-
Forfarian - I noticed at the outset that Robert would only have been 17 at marriage (not 19) but his age in 1871 was 14, 1881 24, 1891 34, 1901 45 so he was pretty consistent with a circa birthdate of 1857 hence the 4 year old 'Joseph' in 1861 looking a strong possibility for him.
Yes, indeed.
-
That's a very interesting idea. I checked the SP index and there is only one death of a Joseph Gillies born 1856 plus or minus 3 years - and that is Joseph Wilson Gillies, son of James Gillies and Elisabeth Don, born 1853 at Kinnaird, Perthshire. So it's anyone's guess what became of that 4-year-old in 1861.
One slight fly in the ointment is that a 4-year-old in 1861 would be just 17 in 1874, which is extraordinarily young for a farm labourer to marry. Even 19, his claimed age on his marriage certificate, is very young.
Also Aberchirder is in the parish of Marnoch, which is in Banffshire, not Aberdeenshire.
Not being acquainted with the area of Aberchirder I only posted what appeared on the transcription of the 1861 Census - it would require Benny to use SP credits and double check the original. Perhaps it's not even Aberchirder??
What puzzles me about this boy Joseph Gillies aged 4 is that if this age is accurate he would have been born circa 1856/1857 when there should have been a Statutory Birth Record - I can't find one so far. Also he appears to be missing from the 1871 Census - but a boy called Robert Gillies same approx. year of birth appears in LLandbryde working as a farm servant. His place of birth is Rothes , the same place young Joseph is living ten years earlier. We always advise that Census info is only as accurate as the knowledge of the person who provided it. In this case perhaps, and it is of course perhaps, the head of household was unaware of Robert Gillies place of birth and gave the enumerator the name of the place that Robert had come to them from??
Equally just as Robert Gillies materialises as a 14 year old in 1871, Joseph Gillies aged 4 vanishes, I cannot find a suitable death record either.
As for marrying at age 17 ? And lying and claiming to be 19? I agree seems young but who knows? :-\ Robert's age on 1881 and 1891 Census still tallies with a 1856/1857 birth. When he died however in 1945, he died on 8th December, he is recorded as 91 making a year of 1854 (I parted with a few credits to look at the original) . Sadly his parents details are blank - the death is registered by his son in law Wm. Mitchell , who obviously didn't know the names and again perhaps could have been mistaken with his father-in-laws age ?? All supposition.
Interestingly, according to Familysearch records in 1891 there were 15 people called Gillies living in New Spynie parish. As I said earlier I do not know any of this area so have no clue how big or widespread that could be. But what I did notice was that 6 of them were Robert and his family. Another 2 of them are George Gillies, illegitimate son of Joseph Gillies, and wife Elizabeth (perhaps with children).
Looby :)
-
Re Aberchirder - I was pretty sure it isn't in Aberdeenshire - Marnoch has Inverkeithy, Forglen and Alvah between it and Aberdeenshire - but there could have been an enclave of Aberdeenshire around there so I did check the Statistical Account and with Fullarton's Gazetteer of 1848, and neither makes any reference to Aberchirder (aka Foggyloan!) or any part of it being in Aberdeenshire.
New Spynie is pretty small - Fullarton says it is about 8 square miles. The village of Bishopmill, now shown on maps as effectively a northern suburb of Elgin, is in the parish of New Spynie.
-
I think Forfarian that I might see how many credits I have left and look at the original 1861. Odd that the transcription has Aberdeenshire - Aberchirder if Aberchirder was never in that county!!
It could be poor handwriting to blame .
It has also occurred to me that me are accepting the name Joseph Gillies on that Census as being Gospel.....might be that someone made a mistake and the child wasn't a Joseph at all ;D
Looby :)
-
No - but I couldn't find any child at all, Joseph or Robert or anything else, with mother Ann Asher and no father named, born in Scotland 1852-1859, and as you say, if he was 4 in 1861 or 14 in 1871 or 24 in 1881 etc, then there should be a birth record.
-
Ok - so I used my last credits ::) on looking at the original 1861 Census for Joseph Gillis.
He is clearly recorded as Joseph and his place of birth is - Banff Aberchirder.
How the word Banff came to be transcribed as Aberdeenshire is beyond me ;D
However muttering the word Aberchirder under my breath made me realise how similar it sounds to the word Aberdeenshire. Could easily understand how Robert may have misheard the place name as a child.....but again maybe that's my vivid imagination.
I also googled Aberchirder to see it's proximity to Rothes, LLandbryde and Bellie (where Joseph was living and working as a salmon fisher in 1851). Roughly 23 to 26 miles away :-\ Of course the mother of Joseph may have been working in Moray and returned to her home or went to a relative in Aberchirder to give birth.
Looby :)
-
Agree with all you say - however, with my own Scottish research, there are a large number of my own ancestors baptisms missing that I was only able to correctly identify from marriage/death records. It can be very hit/miss pre 1855 with Scottish parish records (either lucky or your not) and although Robert's birth should have been registered it's quite possible as apparently born away from family home his mother simply didn't register it, or if she died as result of childbirth someone else didn't register it.
Then again I can't find a death for an Ann Asher or Gillies between 1855-1858 either so one has to wonder if 'Ann' Asher was indeed her name and not something else. Can imagine a birth entry getting overlooked but not a death.
Annette
-
Rothes to Aberchirder is 27 miles. Lhanbryde (not Llandbryde!) to Aberchirder is 29 miles. Bellie is a parish, and the biggest settlement here is Fochabers, from which it's 23 miles to Aberchirder. All of them a day's journey in the mid-19th century. From about 1850 or 1860 you could have gone most of the way by train, but it would have been a complicated journey with various changes of trains.
I couldn't find a death of a likely Ann Asher between 1855 and 1874 either.
I'm sure that the kirk session minutes are bound to shed some light on all this.
-
Rothes to Aberchirder is 27 miles. Lhanbryde (not Llandbryde!) to Aberchirder is 29 miles.
Ooops apologises to all Lhanbryde folk. Like our ancestors before us I was making up my own spelling there of an unfamiliar place name. ;D
But seriously now, those places were a fair distance away for travel in those times. Although it has to said sometimes it amazes me how far some of my ancestors travelled between births of each yearly baby !
I do wonder if Ann Asher (if this was indeed Robert's mother's name) did die during Robert's first 19 or so years. She could have handed him over to his father's family to be raised especially after Joseph died. Oddly this is much like the situation I have with my own family tree - an illegitimate boy born circa 1855/56 and raised by his paternal grandparents using his father's surname and with another county as place of birth and for whom I can find no birth cert. His mother's name on his marriage and death cert is Smith ::) but a different forename on each. And it's just dawned on md .....his first name too is Joseph !!
But if Ann didn't die , she may have married and had no contact with her son. Sadly, to Robert she may have been dead.
As you say Forfarian, Kirk Session records may hold the answer.
Looby :)
-
To everyone out there taking an interest in this I thank you for your interest and dedication.
I will need to print all this out and tabulate it down as my mind is awash with all the information you have gathered in such a short time. I am struggling to keep up with you so please excuse my lack of response. All very much appreciated.
-
Hi Benny,
No need to apologise. Think we galloped away with your query. The mystery of the name changing James/John caught our imagination I think.
Take time to read it all through.
However I would suggest you find John Gillies on the 1901 Census and see where he was living at that time. It does seem very likely that for some reason which you may never get to the bottom of John became James by the time he married in 1907.
Good luck with your research ,
Looby :)
-
Hi James. I am new to this and hope i do it right. My Grandfather Thomas Gillis was said to be born in Galashiels in 1871 to Thomas Gillis from Peebles Scotland whose wife was Margaret Stewart I have put a post on this site with all the info I have. I went to Peebleshire sources . Maybe you can look it up .If not could you message me.
Regards
eagle4