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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Midlothian => Topic started by: Chris_Hogg on Sunday 09 August 15 09:24 BST (UK)
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I need information on William Hogg. All that I have been able to find is that he married a woman named Catherine Bryson at East Canon Gate in 1815 and they had four children. They are: Catherine born in 1818, Ann born in 1820, Jean born in 1825 and William born in 1826. Can anyone find anything on this man? Particularly the names of his parents and his birth/death dates. Thank you in advance.
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Have you found them on any census so far & where ???
Annie
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Hi Chris and welcome to Rootschat,
Have you tried looking for any of the family on the 1841 Census?
Looking at your site name, can I ask are you descended from William Hogg's son William born circa 1826?
If so can you perhaps provide his marriage details too? Gives us something to work on ;D
Looby :)
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I am descended from William Hogg born 2 February 1826.
He married Margaret Minto Thomson in Perth Ontario Canada on 22 January 1858
Margaret Minto Thomson was born 4 September 1836 in Lanarkshire to Gavin Thomson and Jane Minto
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Who were any of the children married to, where & when ???
Annie
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I have no information on the girls but I know that William Hogg born 2 February 1826, married Margaret Minto Thomson 22 January 1858 in Perth Ontario Canada.
From there they appear on numerous censuses in the United States but none of them show I information on the parents. I did find a form that said that 1826 Williams parents were born in Scotland and spoke "Upper Gaelic." I do not know what that means. It gave no mention of birth dates or who their parents were.
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Hi again Chris,
My advice would be to look at William who emigrates to Canada and try and find him on 1851 and 1841 Scottish Census.
Do you know which year he left Scotland? Do you know his occupation?
Finding William born 1826 on 1841 Census could locate his parents and then you can try and work from that.
Looby :)
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This HOGG FAMILY TREE may help
http://hdhdata.org/roots/h2716.html
and this may come in useful
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~hogg/archives/scotland/midlothian.html#CANONGATE Parish
Annie
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Hi Chris,
The four Hogg children according to Familysearch are all christened in North Leith, Midlothian
There is a couple on the 1841 Census at Spenses Place, Leith South
William Hogg age 50 Joiner Journeyman born outside Census County
Catharine Hogg age 45 born outside Census County
Spellings above as per Freecen transcription.
The 1841 Census advised people to round down their ages to nearest 0 or 5 - although in my experience some folk rounded up too! And according to this Census these people were not Midlothian born.
Don't know if this is your couple but worth looking at.
Looby :)
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I have no information on the girls but I know that William Hogg born 2 February 1826, married Margaret Minto Thomson 22 January 1858 in Perth Ontario Canada.
William Hogg and Catherine Bryson's son, William Hogg was born 2 Feb 1822 and baptised in North Leith, Midlothian (as were his sisters, Catherine, Ann and Jean). There are lots of trees on Ancestry that have this William Hogg born on 2 Feb 1826, but I think this must be an error.
There were two William Hoggs baptised in Edinburgh in 1826 - William Hogg, son of George Hogg and Ann Davidson, on 11 Jun 1826; and William John Hogg, son of John Hogg and Janet Fraser, on 23 Dec 1826.
Haven't had any joy finding the rest of the family though - they do appear a bit elusive - and there are a lot of Hoggs in the Edinburgh area. On Catherine and William's marriage record, her father is given as Peter Bryson. There was a Catherine Bryson born to Peter Bryson and Jean Notman on 24 Jan 1784, baptised in Tranent, East Lothian on 22 Feb 1784 who may fit the bill.
Ruth
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I did find a form that said that 1826 Williams parents were born in Scotland and spoke "Upper Gaelic." I do not know what that means. It gave no mention of birth dates or who their parents were.
The marriage record for William Hogg and Margaret Thompson gives William's parents as father: William and mother: Catharine Bryson.
Interestingly, there are also a couple of trees on Ancestry that have Catherine Bryson dying in 1884 - aged 100 - but a cursory search of Scotland's people doesn't bring up a death record to support that in Midlothian, but I haven't looked further afield :o
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Scotlandspeople have a FREE WILL INDEX to search but would cost credits to download if you were to find anything.
Does anyone know the occupation of William ???
Annie
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I'm getting confused with threads.com
I have Hoggs in my own tree so thought I would give you some variants I've encountered on census & other sources.......
Hagg, Hogge, Ogg, Og
Annie
Moderator comment , duplicate topics merged.
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Another post from ruthhelen on other thread
The marriage record for William Hogg and Margaret Thompson gives William's parents as father: William and mother: Catharine Bryson.
Interestingly, there are also a couple of trees on Ancestry that have Catherine Bryson dying in 1884 - aged 100 - but a cursory search of Scotland's people doesn't bring up a death record to support that in Midlothian, but I haven't looked further afield :o
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spoke "Upper Gaelic." I do not know what that means.
I have just asked some "Gaelic" speakers what that term may have meant & here is one of the replies............
"My Gaelic tutor used to speak of Higher Register Gaelic which really meant using more complex, ambitious vocabulary and structures"
So, very good & educated Gaelic ;D
Annie
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I haven't found any record of William Hogg's birth. I based his birthdate off of his headstone. His headstone says that he died November 2, 1892 at age 66.
I am looking for the parents and any information pertaining to the William Hogg who was married to Catherine Bryson.
I have no information on the girls but I know that William Hogg born 2 February 1826, married Margaret Minto Thomson 22 January 1858 in Perth Ontario Canada.
William Hogg and Catherine Bryson's son, William Hogg was born 2 Feb 1822 and baptised in North Leith, Midlothian (as were his sisters, Catherine, Ann and Jean). There are lots of trees on Ancestry that have this William Hogg born on 2 Feb 1826, but I think this must be an error.
There were two William Hoggs baptised in Edinburgh in 1826 - William Hogg, son of George Hogg and Ann Davidson, on 11 Jun 1826; and William John Hogg, son of John Hogg and Janet Fraser, on 23 Dec 1826.
Haven't had any joy finding the rest of the family though - they do appear a bit elusive - and there are a lot of Hoggs in the Edinburgh area. On Catherine and William's marriage record, her father is given as Peter Bryson. There was a Catherine Bryson born to Peter Bryson and Jean Notman on 24 Jan 1784, baptised in Tranent, East Lothian on 22 Feb 1784 who may fit the bill.
Ruth
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Hi Chris ,
The reason we are asking about William Hogg born circa 1822/1826 is to try and find him in Scotland before he travels across the Atlantic then there is a good chance we could link him to his parents and work backwards from there :)
I have found a William and Catharine Hogg at Leith on the 1841 re- reply 8. But we have no way yet of knowing if these are young William's parents. Equally investigating William's sisters and finding them can give clues and lead the way backwards.
Do you know what your William's occupation was? That could help us in the search.
Do you know the full names of all his offspring? Again names including middle names can give us clues to family origins.
Looby :)
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Re- William Hogg's birthday - this link supports ruthhelen's post which gives William's d.o.b. as 2nd February 1822.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTRR-JLK
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Unfortunately, I know very little about Jean, Ann and Catherine. I have only the years they were born.
I don't know what Williams occupation was.
There are so many William Hogg's. I do feel that the correct parents are William Hogg and Catherine Bryson because "Bryson" appears as a middle name for a couple of children on down the line.
1822/1826 Williams headstone says he was born in Edinburg. It also says he died at age 66 and three months in November 1892.
His wife was Margaret Minto Thompson. Her Headstone shows she was born in September of 1836 in Scotland and died in Kansas USA in 1912. Her parents were Gavin Thomson and Jane Minto.
I've not been able to find any passenger information for William Hogg but we know he married Margaret in Perth Ontario Canada in the year 1858.
I've been trying to solve this mystery for years and I've gotten pretty frustrated with it.
Hi Chris ,
The reason we are asking about William Hogg born circa 1822/1826 is to try and find him in Scotland before he travels across the Atlantic then there is a good chance we could link him to his parents and work backwards from there :)
I have found a William and Catharine Hogg at Leith on the 1841 re- reply 8. But we have no way yet of knowing if these are young William's parents. Equally investigating William's sisters and finding them can give clues and lead the way backwards.
Do you know what your William's occupation was? That could help us in the search.
Do you know the full names of all his offspring? Again names including middle names can give us clues to family origins.
Looby :)
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There I was, getting excited because my great-grandparents were James Bryson and Anne Hogg :(
Chris: Do not believe anything you find in any online family tree on Ancestry or MyHeritage or any of these web sites. There are some excellent and well researched trees out there, but there are also some frankly rubbish ones, and at first sight it can be hard to know which are which.
Use the information in online trees as a pointer to find the original documents that are the building blocks of an accurate tree.
Oh, and don't trust anyone else's transcriptions, including mine. Always go for the original so that any mistakes are yours and yours alone.
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1822/1826 Williams headstone says he was born in Edinburg. It also says he died at age 66 and three months in November 1892.
I wouldn't get too hung up on the ages - people frequently either didn't know their exact age, or chose to give it differently. William gives his age as 30 when he marries in 1858 - which would put his birth year at 1828 - but gives his age as 47 in the 1870 census, making his birth year around 1823...
I've been trying to track down William's siblings - so far, only have a semblance of luck with Catherine, who appears to marry a John Thompson in North Leith in 1841. Got quite excited at this point, wondering if this was the same family as Margaret Minto Thompson, but she's the youngest, born 1836 - so if John was her brother, he'd be unlikely to be getting married in 1841... ;D
The census records for Edinburgh and Leith - and indeed for most of the Lothians - are a bit confusing around 1841 and 1851, as there were some district name changes - so I'm having trouble tracking down John Thompson and Catherine Hogg after they married. They do appear to have had a son, William, in 1843, who married Agnes Lawson in Auchterderran, Fife in 1865 - on the marriage cert, father John Thompson is deceased by this time - his occupation is down as gardener. One of the witnesses is a John Thompson - who could be a brother of William...
Not having much luck with the other Hogg siblings - thought I may have found Jean/Jane in Uphall, West Lothian in 1851, with father William and two seemingly illegitimate children :o But I can't track that census entry down on FreeCen yet to see whether their transcription matches Ancestry's...
Onwards and upwards...
Ruth
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There is a couple on the 1841 Census at Spenses Place, Leith South
William Hogg age 50 Joiner Journeyman born outside Census County
Catharine Hogg age 45 born outside Census County
according to this Census these people were not Midlothian born.
Looby :)
I wonder if the Hoggs were form further south........... I think Selkirk or Dumfries was a settlement area although my Hogg 3 x g g/father c1811 & his 2 sons were born Fetteresso, Kincardine although I believe his family probably moved there ??? I haven't got his death cert. either, he died in England pre 1851 so no point there as it won't reveal his father even. Married 1834 so again no parentage to follow ::)
Annie
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Here are a couple of sites.
This is a better Hogg Family Tree for reading
http://douglashogg.co.uk/images/Hogg%20Chart%203%20Feb%202015.jpg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selkirk,_Scottish_Borders
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hogg_(surname)
Annie
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Hi again,
Ruthhelen mentions Catherine Hogg, William's sister and John Thompson marrying.
I believe Catherine is widowed by 1851 and living in Stonehouse, Lanarkshire (oddly not that far from Margaret Minto Thomson's origins) -
New Street Stonehouse-
THOMSON Cathrine Head W 30 Pauper, Muslin Sewer, Flowerer Midlothian - Leith North
THOMSON Thomas Son 10 Scholar Lanarkshire - Stonehouse
THOMSON William Son 8 Scholar Midlothian - Ratho
THOMSON John Son 6 Scholar Ross and Cromarty - Dingwall
THOMSON Cathrine Dau 4 Ross and Cromarty - Dingwall
THOMSON Andrew Son 2 Ross and Cromarty - Dingwall
I found births for John Thomson and Catherine Thomson at Dingwall to parents John Thomson and Catherine Hogg on Familysearch.
Looby :)
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Ruthhelen mentions Catherine Hogg, William's sister and John Thompson marrying.
I believe Catherine is widowed by 1851 and living in Stonehouse, Lanarkshire
Beat me to it Looby ;D
Busy lady, our Catherine Hogg - she then goes on to remarry to one John Price on 29 May 1852, Stonehouse, Lanarkshire. They appear in the 1861 census in Dalserf, Lanarkshire along with two of Catherine's children, Catherine and Andrew... ;)
Ruth
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Are we sure this is the same Catherine Hogg? Is there any information on her parents, particularly her father?
Ruthhelen mentions Catherine Hogg, William's sister and John Thompson marrying.
I believe Catherine is widowed by 1851 and living in Stonehouse, Lanarkshire
Beat me to it Looby ;D
Busy lady, our Catherine Hogg - she then goes on to remarry to one John Price on 29 May 1852, Stonehouse, Lanarkshire. They appear in the 1861 census in Dalserf, Lanarkshire along with two of Catherine's children, Catherine and Andrew... ;)
Ruth
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Are we sure this is the same Catherine Hogg? Is there any information on her parents, particularly her father?
Yes, I'm pretty confident this is the same Catherine Hogg. She died as Catherine Hogg Price, aged 51, on 6 Mar 1872 in Dalserf, Lanarkshire. Her death was registered by her son, Thomas Thomson (who was by then living in Dalserf with his wife and family), and gives her father as William Hogg, mother Catherine Hogg (ms Bryson).
Ruth
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1822/1826 William was a farmer after he came to America. I don't know what he did in Scotland.
Hi Chris ,
The reason we are asking about William Hogg born circa 1822/1826 is to try and find him in Scotland before he travels across the Atlantic then there is a good chance we could link him to his parents and work backwards from there :)
I have found a William and Catharine Hogg at Leith on the 1841 re- reply 8. But we have no way yet of knowing if these are young William's parents. Equally investigating William's sisters and finding them can give clues and lead the way backwards.
Do you know what your William's occupation was? That could help us in the search.
Do you know the full names of all his offspring? Again names including middle names can give us clues to family origins.
Looby :)
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The Birth record I have for Catherine Bryson Hogg shows she was born in Monteith Perthshire Scotland in 1784.
There is a couple on the 1841 Census at Spenses Place, Leith South
William Hogg age 50 Joiner Journeyman born outside Census County
Catharine Hogg age 45 born outside Census County
according to this Census these people were not Midlothian born.
Looby :)
I wonder if the Hoggs were form further south........... I think Selkirk or Dumfries was a settlement area although my Hogg 3 x g g/father c1811 & his 2 sons were born Fetteresso, Kincardine although I believe his family probably moved there ??? I haven't got his death cert. either, he died in England pre 1851 so no point there as it won't reveal his father even. Married 1834 so again no parentage to follow ::)
Annie
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The only marriage information I have for any of the children belonging to William Hogg and Catherine Bryson is for William. He married Margaret Minto Thomson in Perth Ontario Canada in 1858.
The next time they appear is on a U.S. Census from 1860. They are farming in Iowa.
I have been stuck for years trying to locate birth/death dates for the William Hogg who was married to Catherine Bryson. It's as if the family didn't exist before him. It's very frustrating.
Who were any of the children married to, where & when ???
Annie
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The Birth record I have for Catherine Bryson Hogg shows she was born in Monteith Perthshire Scotland in 1784.
I've seen a couple of trees on Ancestry saying Catherine Bryson was born in Monteith/Menteith, Perthshire - have you seen the actual register entry? The only Catherine Bryson I can find on Scotland's People with father Peter around that time was born on 24 Jan 1784 to Peter Bryson of Elphinstone, East Lothian and his wife Jean Notman - the child was baptised on 22 Feb in Tranent, witnesses Archibald Notman and David Crock (maybe Croch).
Having just done a general search on SP for Bryson children around that time, I see Peter Bryson and Jean Notman had six other children baptised in Tranent between 1766 and 1800... ;D
Still no luck finding the elusive William Hogg though...
Ruth
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The Birth record I have for Catherine Bryson Hogg shows she was born in Monteith Perthshire Scotland in 1784.
Hi Chris,
That year of birth for Catherine Bryson would have made her approx. 31 years old when she married in 1815 and over 40 when she gave birth to Jean Hogg in 1825 - obviously not impossible, but Catherine seems quite old for the times for a first time marriage :/
Have you actually looked at the original Parish record of the marriage between William Hogg and Catherine Bryson at East Cannongate Edinburgh on Scotlands People website? As Forfarian has already posted, it's best to check out original documents if you can. The OPR (Old Parish Record) will perhaps add nothing new to your search and just have two names and a date of marriage but sometimes there can be an extra nugget of information such as the bride or groom's home parish or groom's occupation . If you haven't looked at that I would recommend that you do.
Also the original OPR's for the birth's of the 4 Hogg children - again they may add nothing new, but occasionally they can give a place name or something which can be another clue on the search.
Looby :)
Added - Snap Ruthhelen ;D
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Decided it was time to have a look at William Hogg and Catherine Bryson's wedding record - and it's surprisingly illuminating (being used to the one-line parish records of rural Aberdeenshire as I am... ;D):
'William Hogg, wright, Blair(?) St, Edin, and Catharine Bryson, No. 20 St John Street, Canongate, daughter of the late Peter Bryson, labourer, parish of Tranent, gave up their names for marriage.'
So our man Hogg was a wright - and we do appear to have the correct Catherine Bryson - although Looby's right - she does appear somewhat old for the time for her first marriage...
Ruth
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From a look at Familysearch, which I should have checked our earlier ::)
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XYW7-1ZZ
This shows a marriage date of 1st November 1815 between William Hogg and Catherine Bryson and the bride's father is named as Peter Bryson. So perhaps on the right track with the Catherine Bryson christened in Tranent.
Looby :)
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Well done Ruthhelen.
Our posts keep clashing ;D ;D
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Our posts keep clashing ;D ;D
Tee hee - I do love a good bit of detective work - reached too many dead ends with my own tree at the moment... it's nice to actually be able to find something ;D
R
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The Birth record I have for Catherine Bryson Hogg shows she was born in Monteith Perthshire Scotland in 1784.
I've seen a couple of trees on Ancestry saying Catherine Bryson was born in Monteith/Menteith, Perthshire - have you seen the actual register entry? The only Catherine Bryson I can find on Scotland's People with father Peter around that time was born on 24 Jan 1784 to Peter Bryson of Elphinstone, East Lothian and his wife Jean Notman - the child was baptised on 22 Feb in Tranent, witnesses Archibald Notman and David Crock (maybe Croch).
Ruth
Hi Ruth,
Do you think it's possible they may have possibly been on holiday or such, having the child born in Perthshire but baptised back home ???
Annie
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Mmmm............
A closer look, she would have had to at least have been on 1841 & 1851 census to devise a Perthshire birth ??? ::)
Annie
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Well, after a lot of digging around, I think I've finally found the elusive William Hogg senior ;D ;D ;D
He died on 16 Dec 1861 in West Linton - which these days is in the Scottish Borders, but was formerly in Peebleshire - it's practically on the border of Midlothian, only about 15 miles from Edinburgh city centre. William was 79 years old, listed as a joiner on the death registration, and widower of Catherine Bryson ;D He was living with his sister, Ann Ramage (nee Hogg) and her husband Alexander Ramage in West Linton - they all appear together in the 1861 census in West Linton.
William Hogg was born on 20 Sep 1782 in Penicuik, Midlothian (which is about 8 miles north of West Linton) to John Hogg - a miller, according to William's death record - and Anne Porteous. I've found two other children for John and Anne so far, both born in West Linton - John born around 1789 and Ann, already mentioned, around 1800. Ann Hogg married Alexander Ramage in West Linton in 1822 - I've found two children for them so far.
So... this means that the 1851 census entry that I found for William Hogg and his daughter Jane/Jean (and the off-spring of dubious parentage...) is correct, as that William Hogg's birth place was noted as Penicuik (albeit spelled very phonetically :D) - they were in Uphall, Midlothian - still need to work out who the two grand-children actually were - not documentary trace of them as yet...
It also means that all those trees on Ancestry who have Catherine Bryson down as dying in 1884 are probably wrong - William was a widower by the time of the 1851 census.
Phew... :o
Added: Oh, and as a final clue that this probably is the correct William Hogg - William Hogg junior (he who married Margaret Minto Thompson) named one of his children James Porteous Hogg...
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Well done Ruthhelen - you've certainly put a lot of effort into the search. ;D ;D
I wonder if the couple on the 1841 Census at Leith was William and Catherine ? Ages don't quite match the 1782 & 1784 years of birth. But then again the 1841 Census is never reliable for ages!
Looby :)
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Just noticed ruthhelen that William Hogg snr. was a Joiner on the death cert you found.
That ties in too with the occupation of the Leith William Hogg on the 1841 - so that looks like it could be the couple together . So Catherine must have died between 1841 /1851.
I can't find William with Jean on the 1851 (Freecen) - what are her children called please??
Once again great work Ruthhelen ;D
Looby :)
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I wonder if the couple on the 1841 Census at Leith was William and Catherine ? Ages don't quite match the 1782 & 1784 years of birth. But then again the 1841 Census is never reliable for ages!
It seems likely - they're certainly the best (in fact only!) possible match I've come across. On daughter Catherine's wedding registration in 1841, William Hogg is noted as being from Newhaven - 'a builder there...'. And Catherine Bryson was certainly born 'outside the census county' - Penicuik was probably regarded as being outside the census county too...
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I can't find William with Jean on the 1851 (Freecen) - what are her children called please??
No - that's really odd isn't it? I couldn't find them on FreeCen either - it was coming up on Ancestry, I couldn't get it on FreeCen at all, even with every spelling variation I could think of :D I pulled the record off SP in the end...
One child is William H Rankine or Rankins - Ancestry has Rankins and SP has Rankine. It's difficult to tell from the actual census document - it looks more like Rankine. Anyway, he is aged 5, born abt 1846 in Uphall, West Lothian. Jane/Jean Hogg is identified as the mother in the Ancestry transcription, but I always take that with a pinch of salt...
The second child appears to be John M Knight, aged 8 months, according to Ancestry - it's impossible to be sure from the record, but it's certainly in months, rather than years. Again born Uphall.
It looks like Jane/Jean Hogg is noted as married from the record - but if she is, she's not recorded using her married name - but that's not that unusual if the husband has 'gone away'... ;D
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Interestingly, I also came across an 1841 census entry for a Jean Hogg in Lasswade, aged 20, female servant. On Ancestry, the family she was living with was transcribed as Rackham - and I wondered if you could possibly make 'Rankine' from that... but FreeCen has them transcribed as Buckham ::) And the only man in the house was the 70 year old father :o But still - there may be a son somewhere...
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There is a 15year old Jean Hogg , female servant, born outside the county at Bathgate, West Lothian on the 1841.
I had looked at her earlier as a potential sister of William Hogg jnr. She is living with a family called Brown. Head of household James Brown is a teacher.
Looby :)
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Bingo - good old Family Search ;D
Jean Hogg - married John McKnight on 14 Jan 1850 at Uphall. The banns were also read on 25 Nov 1849 in Gorbals, Lanarkshire, so our man must have been from there...
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Bingo - good old Family Search ;D
Jean Hogg - married John McKnight on 14 Jan 1850 at Uphall. The banns were also read on 25 Nov 1849 in Gorbals, Lanarkshire, so our man must have been from there...
Well done again ;D
So we've found Catherine and Jean. But Ann and William jnr. have so far escaped me on 1841/1851 Censuses - of course Ann could have died. I would have thought we might have found William jnr at least on the 1841 :-\ He married in Canada in 1858 - I wonder when he left Scotland . William was no spring chicken either when he married - 36 years.
Looby :)
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There has always been a tale of one of the children sleeping with the hired help. Maybe that explains the illegitimate children? From what I understand it was quiet a fiasco and resulted in the child in question being basically disowned. This story has filtered down through the ages and I have no idea if it's true.
Well, after a lot of digging around, I think I've finally found the elusive William Hogg senior ;D ;D ;D
He died on 16 Dec 1861 in West Linton - which these days is in the Scottish Borders, but was formerly in Peebleshire - it's practically on the border of Midlothian, only about 15 miles from Edinburgh city centre. William was 79 years old, listed as a joiner on the death registration, and widower of Catherine Bryson ;D He was living with his sister, Ann Ramage (nee Hogg) and her husband Alexander Ramage in West Linton - they all appear together in the 1861 census in West Linton.
William Hogg was born on 20 Sep 1782 in Penicuik, Midlothian (which is about 8 miles north of West Linton) to John Hogg - a miller, according to William's death record - and Anne Porteous. I've found two other children for John and Anne so far, both born in West Linton - John born around 1789 and Ann, already mentioned, around 1800. Ann Hogg married Alexander Ramage in West Linton in 1822 - I've found two children for them so far.
So... this means that the 1851 census entry that I found for William Hogg and his daughter Jane/Jean (and the off-spring of dubious parentage...) is correct, as that William Hogg's birth place was noted as Penicuik (albeit spelled very phonetically :D) - they were in Uphall, Midlothian - still need to work out who the two grand-children actually were - not documentary trace of them as yet...
It also means that all those trees on Ancestry who have Catherine Bryson down as dying in 1884 are probably wrong - William was a widower by the time of the 1851 census.
Phew... :o
Added: Oh, and as a final clue that this probably is the correct William Hogg - William Hogg junior (he who married Margaret Minto Thompson) named one of his children James Porteous Hogg...
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Bingo - good old Family Search ;D
Jean Hogg - married John McKnight on 14 Jan 1850 at Uphall. The banns were also read on 25 Nov 1849 in Gorbals, Lanarkshire, so our man must have been from there...
So we've found Catherine and Jean. But Ann and William jnr. have so far escaped me on 1841/1851 Censuses - of course Ann could have died. I would have thought we might have found William jnr at least on the 1841 :-\ He married in Canada in 1858 - I wonder when he left Scotland . William was no spring chicken either when he married - 36 years.
I know - I've had a cursory look at travel stuff for William Hogg junior, but the exit points from the UK and entry points into the US and Canada are so many and varied, it's difficult to know where to start... And there are a lot of William Hoggs... ;D
Incidentally, it seems our John McKnight senior was a slippery soul after all - Jean/Jane remarries in Uphall in 1853 to a James Henderson - her son John McKnight appears with them both in the 1861 and 1871 censuses... :D
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I found a John Hogg born in 1789 to John Hogg and Ann Porteous in Peebleshire.
Bingo - good old Family Search ;D
Jean Hogg - married John McKnight on 14 Jan 1850 at Uphall. The banns were also read on 25 Nov 1849 in Gorbals, Lanarkshire, so our man must have been from there...
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There has always been a tale of one of the children sleeping with the hired help. Maybe that explains the illegitimate children? From what I understand it was quiet a fiasco and resulted in the child in question being basically disowned. This story has filtered down through the ages and I have no idea if it's true.
Well, it looks like the second child - John McKnight - may have been legitimate, although it also looks like the father disappeared quite soon after. He possibly died of course - so perhaps we should give him the benefit of the doubt :) As for the first child - so far he only appears to be with his mother in 1851 and then vanishes - by 1861 he'd have been around 15, so could have left home in any case - or been claimed by his father...
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To be honest Chris , illegitimacy was far more common than you'd think back then!
Catherine was certainly married then widowed then remarried.
Ann we haven't found yet.
And Jean does have a child called Rankine but she could have been married and widowed young , also she marries John McKnight father to her 2nd son. Obviously that didn't last long as she's on her own by 1851 and remarrying in 1853. Maybe John McKnight had died or maybe :-X ....she remarried when still married. ;D
Looby :)
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Ann Hogg was married to Alexander Ramage right?
To be honest Chris , illegitimacy was far more common than you'd think back then!
Catherine was certainly married then widowed then remarried.
Ann we haven't found yet.
And Jean does have a child called Rankine but she could have been married and widowed young , also she marries John McKnight father to her 2nd son. Obviously that didn't last long as she's on her own by 1851 and remarrying in 1853. Maybe John McKnight had died or maybe :-X ....she remarried when still married. ;D
Looby :)
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The Ann Hogg married to Alexander Ramage was a sister of William Hogg snr.
So she was the aunt of William who emigrated to Canada then USA.
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There is a William Rankine with the correct year of birth and birth county (West Lothian) at Kirknewton & East Calder, Midlothian on the 1861 Census and West Calder, Midlothian on 1871. Could well be Jean Hogg's first son - probably a miner?? Can't see a 1881 entry but he's still in West Calder for the 1891.
Looby :)
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Great work looby & ruth
Enjoying following.........
Great story unfolding.
Just let us know when the book release date is ;D
Annie
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Great work looby & ruth
Enjoying following.........
Great story unfolding.
Just let us know when the book release date is ;D
Annie
;D The book is up to Chris. Bound to be a bestseller though!
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I have been able to trace my family back as far as 1822 William. Beyond that has been a mystery. I even joined a Hogg DNA project in search of information. The DNA project revealed that I was somehow related to the Etterick Shepard and to some folks with the last name of Laidlaw but there was a big hole in the lineage and I wasn't able to connect the dots. You are helping to close that hole. Thank you for taking the time to help me with this. It's been bugging me for years!
Great work looby & ruth
Enjoying following.........
Great story unfolding.
Just let us know when the book release date is ;D
Annie
;D The book is up to Chris. Bound to be a bestseller though!
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An update on the Hogg/Bryson search ;D
Jean/Jane Hogg - the daughter of William Hogg senior (m. Catherine Bryson) and sister of William Hogg who emigrated to Canada/US. Still no conclusive evidence of the presumed illegitimate child, but just to tie up Jean/Jane's story, she died in 1893 aged 68 in Uphall, West Lothian - her death was registered by her son, John McKnight. It doesn't look like she had any other children with her second husband, James Henderson.
I've been following William senior's two known siblings: Ann Hogg and John Hogg, so by way of summary:
Ann Hogg (b. abt 1800 to John Hogg and Ann Porteous) married Alexander Ramage, a hand loom weaver, in West Linton, in 1822. She died in 1887 in Coatbridge, Lanarkshire at the home of her daughter, Margaret Jack (nee Ramage). Ann and Alexander had three known children:
- James Ramage, b. abt 1826, West Linton. A bit of a jack of all trades it seems (variously, carter, gardener and weaver), married Jane Moffat in 1848 in West Linton. Had seven known children.
- Andrew Ramage, b. abt 1833, West Linton. Started out as a shoemaker, but then switched to working in a rubber factory. Married (1) Marion Cook in Edinburgh in 1857. They had seven known children. (2) Ann Thomson in Newington in 1880. No known children.
- Margaret Ramage, b. abt 1844, West Linton. She married William Marton or Marlow Jack, a mason, (the illegitimate son of John Jack, a mason) in West Linton in 1867. No children known.
John Hogg (b. 7 Feb 1789, West Linton, to John Hogg and Ann Porteous) a grocer and merchant - he kept a store in the High Street in Inverkeithing, Fife. He married Elizabeth Murray in Madderty, Perthshire in 1818 and died in 1866 in Inverkeithing at the age of 77. John and Elizabeth had four known children:
- Janet Hogg, b. 5 Apr 1821, Madderty. No further trace of her, so presumably died in infancy.
- James Hogg, b. 16 Jan 1823, Madderty. He became the owner and editor of the Stirling Journal and Advertiser. He married Jane Donaldson McLaren from Gamrie, Banffshire in Stirling in 1858, and he ran the paper with her until his death in 1876, aged 53. His wife took over and continued as publisher until her death in 1900 - she wrote a regular column for women under the pseudonym Atalanta - Google her - a very interesting and progressive lady for her time ;D They had six daughters and a son, most of whom died young, but one daughter - Anna Porteous Hogg married the then editor of the Stirling Journal, Thomas Johnston, in 1887 and became co-editor from 1900 to her death in 1909. Two of their other surviving daughters became principals at St Hilda's School for Girls in Stirling.
- William Hogg, b. Jan 1825, Madderty. No further trace of him.
- Anne Porteous Hogg, b. 31 Aug 1831 in Edinburgh. She was a seamstress, and ran the store in Inverkeithing with her parents. She died in Edinburgh in 1884, aged 52. She never married.
Well, that was a lot of fun - don't you just love it when it all comes together ;D
Ruth
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Well, after a lot of digging around, I think I've finally found the elusive William Hogg senior ;D ;D ;D
William Hogg was born on 20 Sep 1782 in Penicuik, Midlothian to John Hogg - a miller and Anne Porteous. He died on 16 Dec 1861 in West Linton
Was hoping Ruth with your brilliant find that this would have been the link to James Hogg "The Ettrick Shepherd" but the tree is missing info. ???
http://www.monicahogg.com/jameshogg/
Annie
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Was hoping Ruth with your brilliant find that this would have been the link to James Hogg "The Ettrick Shepherd" but the tree is missing info. ???
I was wondering about that too - but these Hoggs seem to be in the wrong part of Scotland for a link to James Hogg of Ettrick - although if we can get back further, who knows - they probably all link together in the end ;D
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I suppose "related to" can be mistaken as "descended from"......................
It's all in the reading & interpreting :P
Annie
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I took part in a DNA project. There is a link to the Etterick Shepard. I will look up what is was later.
Was hoping Ruth with your brilliant find that this would have been the link to James Hogg "The Ettrick Shepherd" but the tree is missing info. ???
I was wondering about that too - but these Hoggs seem to be in the wrong part of Scotland for a link to James Hogg of Ettrick - although if we can get back further, who knows - they probably all link together in the end ;D
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The Ettrick Shepherd - James Hogg's mother was called Margaret Laidlaw.
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I took part in a DNA project. There is a link to the Etterick Shepard. I will look up what is was later.
Chris,
I'm not denying that as there could well be but link & descent are of 2 different meanings.
You could be "linked" through his g grandfather but knowing that "The Ettrick Shepherd" was of "calibre" if you like, they may have thrown that info. in ???
Annie
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I did find a form that said that 1826 Williams parents were born in Scotland and spoke "Upper Gaelic." I do not know what that means.
What was this "form"? Was it an original document or a transcription?
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The Ettrick Shepherd - James Hogg's mother was called Margaret Laidlaw.
And his father was Robert.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Hogg
Annie
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There is a story in our family that we are also related to the Ettrick Shepherd. Interestingly, I have heard this not only from my mother, but also from the husband of a 3rd cousin once removed whose line diverged from mine in 1826, which was still in the lifetime of the Ettrick Shepherd.
This cousin has sent me an obituary of his wife's grandfather, which states that the founder of both lines moved from Selkirk to Larbert in 1765. You won't be surprised to hear that I have utterly failed to substantiate any of this information, but it's not for want of trying.
I do know of at least one living direct male descendant of 'my' line - maybe I should get in touch as ask him for a DNA sample.
I have a modest tree of 181 people related to the Ettrick Shepherd (not including 'my' line of course) which is far too big to post here, but if anyone would like a copy send me your direct e-mail address by PM.
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I found a U.S. Census form that lists the place of birth for William Hogg and Margaret Minto Thomson Hogg as "Scotland Gaelic L" do any of you know what that means?
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Could simply mean "Literate" ???
Annie
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I took part in a DNA project. There is a link to the Etterick Shepard. I will look up what is was later.
Chris,
Can you elaborate on this please ???
Annie
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I found a U.S. Census form that lists the place of birth for William Hogg and Margaret Minto Thomson Hogg as "Scotland Gaelic L" do any of you know what that means?
My take on the above is place of birth Scotland and that they spoke the Gaelic Language.
Could mean Literate like Annie suggest :-\ but I go with language.
Looby :)
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Looby.............you have a point with "Language"........clever cloggs ;D
Annie
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Looby.............you have a point with "Language"........clever cloggs ;D
Annie
;D ;D Clever Clogs at this time of the night as well !!
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I'm more interested in the person the "Cloggs" belong to in the "Hogg's" family.........& the "connection" with the "Shepherd"..................
Still waiting to hear the facts on this document ??? ::)
Annie
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I have Hoggs in my own tree so thought I would give you some variants I've encountered on census & other sources.......
Hagg, Hogge, Ogg, Og
Need to be a wee bit careful with these variants. G F Black's The Surnames of Scotland says
"Hogg, Hogge. This surname is usually explained as a nickname derived from the name of the animal .... there are other undoubted instances pointing to different origins .... The spelling .... Hoga .... certainly points to O[ld] E[nglish hoga 'careful', 'prudent', as origin of the name at least in this instance .... Hogge 1656, Hogh 1496, Hoig 1515, Hoige 1526, Hogis 1519, Howg 1686". (I am sure that I have also read somewhere that it is from the Norse given name 'Haug' but Black says nothing about that.)
"Ogg, Oag. Both these names are from the Gaelic adjective og, "young" .... Oage 1688."
In other words, these names are not necessarily interchangeable.
Maybe William was a Gaelic-speaking Ogg from the Highlands, and when he moved to the Lowlands got recorded as Hogg because that surname is commonest in the Borders and Lowlands.
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I've seen a couple of trees on Ancestry saying Catherine Bryson was born in Monteith/Menteith, Perthshire
William Hogg, wright, Blair(?) St, Edin, and Catharine Bryson, No. 20 St John Street, Canongate, daughter of the late Peter Bryson, labourer, parish of Tranent, gave up their names for marriage
I am sorry if I am beginning to sound like a cracked record, but this is a classic case of how much time, effort and frustration would have been saved if everyone had gone straight for the marriage on SP instead of giving credence to all the potential garbage on A*****y.
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thought I would give you some variants I've encountered on census & other sources.......
Hagg, Hogge, Ogg, Og
Need to be a wee bit careful with these variants. G F Black's The Surnames of Scotland says
"Hogg, Hogge. This surname is usually explained as a nickname derived from the name of the animal .... there are other undoubted instances pointing to different origins .... The spelling .... Hoga .... certainly points to O[ld] E[nglish hoga 'careful', 'prudent', as origin of the name at least in this instance .... Hogge 1656, Hogh 1496, Hoig 1515, Hoige 1526, Hogis 1519, Howg 1686". (I am sure that I have also read somewhere that it is from the Norse given name 'Haug' but Black says nothing about that.)
"Ogg, Oag. Both these names are from the Gaelic adjective og, "young" .... Oage 1688."
In other words, these names are not necessarily interchangeable.
Maybe William was a Gaelic-speaking Ogg from the Highlands, and when he moved to the Lowlands got recorded as Hogg because that surname is commonest in the Borders and Lowlands.
Forfarian,
I did not say the names were "interchangeable"...........merely "variants" although I should possibly have used the word "variations" regarding the spellings found on transcriptions ::)
Annie
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I did not say the names were "interchangeable"...........merely "variants"
Neither did I, but the assumption I make is that a 'variant' or 'variation' is basically the same name with a different spelling, whereas with Hogg/Ogg there are in fact two entirely distinct names with totally different origins that just happen occasionally to be spelled the same if someone leaves the H off the beginning or adds a spurious H before the O.
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Unfortunately, I will never know whether I am descended from Oggs or Hoggs as the records don't go back far enough ::)
My ancestor was b Fetteresso but still doesn't define anything so I can only go by my documents & mis-transcriptions :-\
Annie
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I've seen a couple of trees on Ancestry saying Catherine Bryson was born in Monteith/Menteith, Perthshire
William Hogg, wright, Blair(?) St, Edin, and Catharine Bryson, No. 20 St John Street, Canongate, daughter of the late Peter Bryson, labourer, parish of Tranent, gave up their names for marriage
I am sorry if I am beginning to sound like a cracked record, but this is a classic case of how much time, effort and frustration would have been saved if everyone had gone straight for the marriage on SP instead of giving credence to all the potential garbage on A*****y.
Maybe everyone can't afford to go straight to the marriage on SP Forfarian :-\
I certainly can't :) I do use my own credits occasionally to help fellow Rootschatters, but only when I feel I can. Otherwise I'd be in the poorhouse.
In my opinion, it's up to the OP to check out (and fork out) for the original record just as you, and indeed, I advised earlier on the thread and I believe Ruthhelen in reply 32 eventually used her credits to verify it.
Like you , I never give credence to others' trees on A******y :o garbage or otherwise ;D In fact I don't have a subscription to A******y or any other subscription site. But I do use research sites like Familysearch, Freecen, Freebmd and other local history records sites which are handy free tools. For my own research, I then verify my finds on SP.
I do enjoy helping people and making suggestions on Rootschat but when it comes to Scotlands People I can't afford to look at everyones record. :)
Looby :)
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Like you , I never give credence to others' trees on A******y :o garbage or otherwise ;D In fact I don't have a subscription to A******y or any other subscription site.
Quite so - it still amazes me the nonsense that appears on some public trees on the aforementioned site (other subscription services are available ;D). And actually, their transcriptions of some of the source documents - census info in particular - is pretty dire - I've lost count of the number of corrections I've put in :D I do, however, still have a subscription to the said site - mainly because I do actually like the interface for recording and building trees - and it's also pretty handy for non-UK stuff. But I'd never take anything on face value... ;D
Ruth
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No, I entirely agree that not everyone can afford to use their credits for other people, and that it's really up to the person who wants the information to go and get it, and pay for it, but we were all (me included) dithering about and failing to notice the free reference on FamilySearch that would have led to the answer. It was extremely kind of Ruthhelen to fork out for it and break the deadlock :)
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Quick reply to Forfarian, who says she has a tree of James Hogg the Ettrick Shepherd, I can't find a way to PM her with my email for a copy. Thank you.
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Karenmayf - the reason you couldn't find a way to contact me direct is that you have to make three posts on the open forum before you can use the Private Message system.
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Thank you for the info. I will have to see what I can do.