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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: tssenior on Thursday 17 September 15 10:50 BST (UK)
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My Dad has been looking for his Grandad for all of my life (43 years). We live in New Zealand, and the last anyone saw of him was when he divorced my great grandmother and left his 2 children, which was around the late 1920s. There are no records of him in NZ since then. He is on no electoral rolls, there is no death record etc. I suspect he took off overseas. I have found a man that lived in Australia with the same name, and he has no record of a birth, and his parents are unknown. I would like to discount this man from my search before I get too excited! His death notice was in the Northern Star (Lismore) newspaper from NSW in Australia on 27 May 1983 (he died 24 May). I have asked for a copy of the death notice so I can read it (and hopefully it mentions an age that he died or parents names etc) but they have told me to be patient, it may take months! Does anyone else on here know how I can get any information on this man? The name is Leslie Joseph Thomas. I look forward to any replies. Kind regards, Sue.
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According to the NSW Registry of BDM Leslie Joseph Thomas died 1983 and his parents were William John and Mary Agnes.
Good luck.
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Looking at the electoral roll for Middle Pocket, his wife was Ruth Imogen (died 1994), and they married in 1945 in NSW. He was a Union Organiser. If this man was born after September 1915 in NSW then you will not find a record of his birth online as they are closed for 100 years.
Debra :)
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Hi Sue and welcome to Rootschat
You say you have asked for a copy of the death notice.
I am presuming that you got the information from RYERSON INDEX?
If there was an age listed in the notice, it should be recorded on the RI. [it's not]
Who have you asked?
State Library of Qld has this paper even though it's from NSW. I'll be going into SLQ next week (DV!) :P for other Ryerson lookups and will order it in for you and transcribe the notice.
Regards
Dawn M
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.... the last anyone saw of him was when he divorced my great grandmother and left his 2 children, which was around the late 1920s.
Is this them?
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01g5d/
Divorce records from the New Plymouth Supreme Court are on restricted access at the Archives in Wellington though they are only closed for 60 years. These would be worth looking at as they sometimes contain information that may not have been passed on (for example, the suspected whereabouts of the respondent).
http://archives.govt.nz/research/guides/personal-identity (scroll down)
Debra :)
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I don't know how to reply to individual comments sorry. I now know that the Leslie I was tracking in Australia is the wrong man. Back to the drawing board!! Thank you Debra for that divorce notice, yes that is them. Leslie Joseph Thomas married my great grandmother Grace Violet Price in 1918 and then divorced. They had two children, one was my grandmother and the other died tragically from drowning. When the son died, Leslie was apparently seen at the cementry gates, but no one has ever seen him since. My Dad seems to think he disappeared so he wouldn't have to pay child maintenance. Would Inland Revenue have records dating back that far of him working? I can't seem to find any record of him ever leaving the country but I understand it was easy to change your name back then. So frustrating that someone can just disappear! Thanks for all the replies :)
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Sue does your latest post mean you don't need the DEATH notice from the Lismore paper?
Dawn M
PS People reply to individual comments in various ways. You'll soon get used to it.
If you are replying to a post just made, like I am, then it is usually obvious to people.
Or, if you want to reply to various posts, you can put it all in one post with names in front of each bit, as in: Debra/Dundee Thanks, I"ll look into that
Dawn /Billy Blue ... That would be good
If you want to include part of a previous post, when you hit reply you get them all printed under the reply window, so scroll down to the one you want and click on "Insert Quote at the RHS and it will appear in the window and you can reply underneath it.
Cheers
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Use ARCHWAY to find WW1 record for Leslie Joseph THOMAS 10 / 544.
Has copy of his birth certificate, and marriage certificate...copies produced at Aug and Sep 1975.
Also death certificate 2003 for daughter.
Copy of BC has 31 July 1894, parents Frances Mary PARMENTER, father George THOMAS.
Likely marriage for parents -
1881 / 1865 CARMENTER Frances Mary m. THOMAS George
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Thank you Middlesbrough for clarifying who the Australian Leslie Joseph Thomas' parents are. That is the information that I needed to discount him from being the same man that I am looking for. Dawn/Billyblue, I found the Ryerson Index had the death notice and I wanted to look at it myself to see if his age or parents were mentioned. I did get a copy of that notice this morning, and his parents were as Middlesbrough said, so it clarifies that this man in Australia is not the Leslie Joseph Thomas that I am looking for. Thank you Debra/Dundee for the newspaper clipping, we have never seen that so my Dad was very grateful. Obviously Leslie didn't turn up to court for his divorce, but the divorce was granted because it says on their marriage certificate that we have. I checked the archives link that you also sent Debra and there is no record that we haven't seen on there, but thanks. I have his birth certificate, all family tree around him, his WW1 records, his marriage certificate. He had 2 children (1 died from drowning, the other was my Nana) but when he left my Gran in the late 1920s there is no record that proves that he ever existed beyond that time. It is very frustrating!! No one has ever found any record to say that he lived past that time, but no death certificate has ever been issued either. I have found him on no passenger ships. Because he was a war veteran, does anyone know if they were entitled to a pension in New Zealand? I have read that they were but haven't looked into where I would go to see if he got one yet. Thank you Wivenhoe for the link to Archway, I will see if there is anything different on there, but from the info you quoted it is the same as what we already know. We know that he is long dead (he'd be 121 otherwise) but I just want to find out where he is for my Dad's sake. My Nana (that's the daughter you talked about Wivenhoe, she died in 2003, I was with her) died never knowing what happened to her Dad. My Dad has spent decades looking for this man, I would love nothing better than to find out for him and put an end to this mystery. Thank you all very much :)
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Hi Sue, there is also this death in Australia in 1964 for a Leslie Joseph THOMAS mentioned in The Canberra Times 8 Sept 1964 on Trove
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/131747691?searchTerm=%22leslie%20joseph%20thomas%22&searchLimits=
I don't have any experience accessing ACT records, it doesn't seem like there's a search facility on their website, but someone more knowledgeable than me might be able to help.
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Thank you Maddys52, that is another link I will check out. Interesting that it doesn't mention any family names. I may have phone the cementery on Monday and ask what the grave stone says.
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I may have phone the cementery on Monday and ask what the grave stone says.
That newspaper announcement said he was living at the Veterans' Home. The Home will have probably kept all their archives, being an official organisation that's accountable.
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Hi,
Do you have the names of his parents. It may help for our search in Australia. What can you tell us about him? Date of birth , occupations etc.
Julie
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Sorry, scratch that I can see you already gave dob and parents name.
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The Veterans Home will likely not give you any info because of privacy, but the cemetery is a good idea as his service number should be recorded.
The death reg. and online cemetery listing give no further details.
You can search the death register here (click on the purple tab "Historic Death Index") and there are further details on obtaining a death cert in case you need them.
https://www.accesscanberra.act.gov.au/app/answers/detail/a_id/2094/related/1
There were at least five men using this name in full on Australian electoral rolls, three of whom served in WW2, but hopefully we should be able to start eliminating them.
Let us know how you go with the ACT man as I have another in mind who may have been the same age as your Leslie but I have lost him after 1961 (could even be the same one ;D ).
Debra :)
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Burial Details
THOMAS, LESLIE JOSEPH
Cemetery Woden
Buried Tuesday, September 8, 1964
Allotment Index H-EX-B-017
http://www.canberracemeteries.com.au/grave-search
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Thanks Giblet, that is the one I will be checking out next. Debra, I went through all the electoral rolls on Ancestry.com and there were a few with the same name but I think most of them had parents names attached. The one that didn't, but I have now eliminated was the one that lived in Campsie until 1943 and then got married in 1945. Was that the one you may have been thinking? He was listed on the electoral roll as a traveller, which got me excited, but then my Dad explained that in those days a door to door salesman was known as a traveller. My Leslie's occupation in New Zealand prior to him disappearing was a Tramwayman (a tram driver).
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I just wanted to give any update on my search. Thank you to Maddys52 for the link to a Leslie Joseph Thomas who died in Canberra in 1964. I phoned the council and they have sent me a photo of this grave headstone, and the name and age is exactly as I was hoping. Our Leslie was born in 1894 and this man died in 1964 aged 70. The unusual thing though is that our Leslie's regimental war number is 10/544 and the one on the headstone is 10/725, which actually belongs to a man named Bernard Eyre Baxter, who was killed in action in 1915. I have contacted the funeral directors that were on the notice from the link you sent, and they are looking into it. I will also contact the home he lived in to see if they can shed any light on this man. Finally some good news!! Sue
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Sorry that should say 10/275.
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Been following this story
just book marking for the next reply
Elizabeth
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Can you please show the image of the headstone, Canberra 1964.
If it has a service number, is it a military service headstone?.
Australian military headstone for a man who served in NZ army?
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Should it be a Commonwealth War Graves Commission headstone?
http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead.aspx
You can search just by service no.
It is possible that 10/275 is not a unique number. For example Victor R S SCOTT, Auckland Regiment NZEF. KiA Belgium 4 Oct 1917
Cheers, JM
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Bookmarking this one too and looking for the mystery to be solved
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It is possible that 10/275 is not a unique number. For example Victor R S SCOTT, Auckland Regiment NZEF. KiA Belgium 4 Oct 1917
Yes, I'm pretty sure that in the British Army during this period service numbers were only unique within a regiment rather than across the entire army - don't know whether or not that is significant in this case.
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Sub - looking forward to hearing more
Nesta
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The man I was looking at is the one who married in 1942:
1942
THOMAS, LESLIE JOSEPH
SENIOR, LAURA ELIZABETH
Registered at REDFERN
# 16872
Laura was a widow aged 52 and she had married firstly to Alfred SENIOR in 1907 (maiden surname LAKE). Of course this Leslie could have been any age, but there is more of a probability that he was a similar age. Laura died in 1961 and it appears from the wording of her death notice that her husband was still living. He is still on the electoral roll with her in 1958.
http://postimg.org/image/iw79sa5i9/
Perhaps of particular interest is that some of her children were living in Canberra.
Debra :)
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He is still at the same address in 1963 and I cannot see him anywhere on the next available roll for NSW which is 1968.
Debra :)
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I tried to add a pic of the head stone last night but it said the file was too big? I'm not very computer savvy so don't know how to make the pic smaller. I just tried cutting and pasting it but it didn't work.
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If you try.........
right click on pic & open with paint
click on image
then click on resize
you can decrease the size to 50% or whatever but remember to save it as a different name e.g. Thomas 1 so you can keep the original without having to keep changing.
Annie
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Ok I think I have it sorted. See what you make of this photo. So just to recap, this grave is in a Canberra, Australia cememtery. I will phone the home that he last lived in (Veterans home in Lyneham) today to see if they have any records from him living there in 1964. And Debra, for some reason I think I disccounted the man you talked about because I found the names of his parents, but I will go back and check.
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Hi,
I was curious so I had a look through the WWI military record of Leslie Joseph Thomas (10/544) on Archway.
Did you notice that image 17 is the "Copy of Final Discharge" and the Cert of Discharge No is 10/275...which matches the gravestone in the Canberra Cemetery! :)
I haven't continue looking through the whole file, but certainly a number of records following this image are marked as 10/275 instead of 10/544 but they all appear to be referring to the same person. (i.e. physical descriptions, occupation, age etc match)
Hope that helps.
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Thank you hsfam! This is so exciting, I can't believe I may have finally found him!! The lady at the veterans home that he lived in said she was spending the day in archives so she would get straight onto it. I'm still waiting to hear back from the funeral director. Maybe he's in his archives room too haha. Thank you so much everyone. Isn't the Internet amazing! :)
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Well done for noticing that hsfam ;D
I assume that a death cert from the ACT would follow the same format as NSW and include details of age, birthplace, parents, spouse and children. Of course this is all given by an informant and so it will depend on what he chose to divulge while he was living. Even if there are no details of his earlier life it would still be worth getting to see any later life info. They are a bit $$$ though :(
Hopefully the Veteran's Home will be able to provide some clues such as next of kin.
Such a good result, hope your Dad is pleased ;D
Debra :)
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Yes, well done hsfam .... such great detective work. :)
Fingers crossed.
Cheers, JM
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So excited to report that the home had his birth date as 31 July 1894, the exact right date!! They said that he only arrived at the home on 9 may 1964 so was only there for less than 4 months. Now to find out where he was before that! Dad is incredibly grateful to you all x I sent an email to bdm ACT last night but I haven't heard back yet. I'm impatient now so might try phoning them.
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Hi Sue,
There is no point in emailing them, you just need to apply for the certificate and pay. I gave the link earlier.
http://www.legislation.act.gov.au/af/2014-125/current/pdf/2014-125.pdf
https://www.accesscanberra.act.gov.au/app/answers/detail/a_id/2214
Debra :)
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Regarding the details on the form about providing identification - this death occurred more than 30 years ago so access is not restricted. As far as I know you should not be required to provide any proof of identity.
Just fill out your details as the applicant and go down to the death cert section and fill that out. I would leave the parents' details blank.
As this has to be a postal application making the whole process a bit longer, perhaps you should confirm the ID requirements with them first. I would even ask if you can scan the completed form and email it to them. Canberra needs to come into the 21st century >:(
Debra :)
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So glad this is working out for you!
I had another look at Trove for any other hints at where he may have been during those missing years, but as Debra said there are a number of men with the same name around. Hopefully the death cert will give you some more clues. :)
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Thanks Debra, I'll get on to it today. I just talked to them, they had the death certificate right there and couldn't reveal anything aaaarrgghhh!! He did confirm that he has info about spouses, parentage etc so I probably won't know any more until it arrives (probably months). I need to provide proof that I'm related, ID etc and I'm not allowed to scan and email. Very old fashioned I thought >:-(
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There's very strict privacy laws in Australia, and while the death certificate provides information about the deceased, that information can include private information about the persons supplying that info. So, there's restrictions for access.
I have been the informant on several death registrations. Each time my fulll name and address has been clearly displayed on the document, and of course, to the best of my knowledge I provided information about the deceased persons, their parents and their spouse/s and their children, which in Australia is considered to be private information. The passage of time lessens the need to provide safeguards to protect their identities being infringed based on the info on those certificates.
May I suggest that the application for the ACT document may be swiftly processed if the applicant is his son, as his ID will provide his elderly status to the person processing the application. I don't know if that will hasten the process, but it may. You should not actually need any ID for the application to be processed.
Cheers, JM
'
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I have been following this really interesting thread. How wonderful that at last you have some positive information to follow up. Well done Roots Chatters!
Chris
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Yes Chris, I am so grateful to everyone that has helped from this site, I'm so glad I joined! There have been so many helpful links that I believe I never would have found on my own. My Dad (74) is in a bit of shock I think haha. He has phoned all of his siblings to tell them, and other family members that have been interested all these years. I just can't wait for the death certificate, to see if it reveals anything else! At this stage we don't know when he left NZ to go to Australia, all we know is that he spent the last 4 months of his life in a Veterans Home. I have been trying to follow up on a person of interest that Debra talked about. I thought I had discounted him because I had found his parents names but now I can't find where I got that information! A Leslie Joseph Thomas married a Laura Elizabeth Senior in 1942 in Redfern NSW. I'm heading to Ancestry.com now to see if I can find out more.
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Bookmarking still enjoying this thread
great detective work all of you
I too would have been lost without Rootschat
Elizabeth
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What a brilliant outcome, another success for RootsChat, and well done hsfan
Margp
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Wonderful news and brilliant researching. :)
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May I suggest that you seriously consider obtaining an Official Transcription of the 1942 marriage certificate. The depth of detail on a NSW certificate should help your quest as it includes the following information supplied first hand by the bridegroom:
About the Bridegroom
:) His full name (all his given names and surname)
:) His then current occupation and usual place of residence
:) His conjugal status (Divorcee, Widower, Bachelor)
:) When and where born
:) His father's name and occupation and if known to be deceased
:) His mother's name and previous name/s and if known to be deceased
(And of course similar details for the Bride, supplied first hand from the bride)
That depth of detail should help you confirm/validate the ACT information.
Official Transcription Agents are appointed by NSW BDM and provide an excellent service. You receive all the information already transcribed from the 1942 certificate and it arrives in your email inbox. The service is cheaper and quicker than the real deal certificate. The only 'downside' from a family history perspective is that you do not get the image of the signatures of the bride and groom. However, many of the NSW BDM records do not actually include those signatures, but rather are simply transmitted records by the clergy/officiating registrar.
Here's an RChat thread re the Transcription Agents
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,300394.0.html
Here's NSW BDM webpage about their Transcription Agents.
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/Pages/family-history/family-history.aspx#transcription
Here's Debra's post with the reference no. needed to order the document :)
The man I was looking at is the one who married in 1942:
1942
THOMAS, LESLIE JOSEPH
SENIOR, LAURA ELIZABETH
Registered at REDFERN
# 16872
Laura was a widow aged 52 and she had married firstly to Alfred SENIOR in 1907 (maiden surname LAKE). Of course this Leslie could have been any age, but there is more of a probability that he was a similar age. Laura died in 1961 and it appears from the wording of her death notice that her husband was still living. He is still on the electoral roll with her in 1958.
http://postimg.org/image/iw79sa5i9/
Perhaps of particular interest is that some of her children were living in Canberra.
Debra :)
Cheers, JM
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A Leslie Joseph Thomas married a Laura Elizabeth Senior in 1942 in Redfern NSW. I'm heading to Ancestry.com now to see if I can find out more.
There are plenty of Laura's descendants with family trees there.
Debra :)
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You have no idea how excited I am to post this tonight, but I did as Debra suggested and got an official transcription of the marriage certificate of Leslie Joseph Thomas and Laura Elizabeth Senior (can you believe that I married a senior too!) and it confirms that this is my man!! I spoke to the nicest man on earth and he obviously knew how much this means to me and within 6 hours he has emailed me the results. I am just brimming with excitement! I now know what my great grandfather has done for the last 30 years of his life. Thank you so much Debra for encouraging me to pursue this line of enquiry!!! I will be forever grateful x I would imagine he did as you said Debra, lived with his wife until she died and moved to Canberra to live with kids until he needed to move to a convelescent home. My next move is seeing if those kids were all hers from her first marriage or whtether they had any together. So worth the $18 NZD i spent to get the information!
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I have been following this too.
What an amazing outcome :)
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That's brilliant. I love it when a missing granddad is finally tracked to the end! Without the end you can't fill in the gaps.
I wonder if, now, with proof/evidence he's "yours" there's anything in the home archives they can let you have/see!
As the 2nd wife was "so old" at their wedding, it's doubtful their downlines would be blood-related, as they're most likely just hers, but they'd still have memories/photos! I do hope they're welcoming to your quest.
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What fantastic news - have been following this thread with much interest; we also ( with the help of Rootschat some of whom have participated here) found long lost family - a great uncle and his descendants in Australia.
Just a quick pointer - if or when you decide his (step) children - please do so carefully as he may have never mentioned his first family - it might be rather a shock to them
Well done everyone a fantastic effort - the magic of rootschat strikes again
Nesta
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Popping in here as well what a great find and well done you rootchatter's
I love a happy ending and this has been one
Elizabeth
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My next move is seeing if those kids were all hers from her first marriage or whtether they had any together.
Although NSW birth searches only allowed for births 100 years ago, it appears Alfred Henry Senior died in 1941 and all the children mentioned in Laura's obit married in NSW between 1936 and 1953, so pretty safe to assume they were all Laura and Alfred's.
You can do a birth search for Edith M (1907), Alfred W (1911), Roydon T (1913-1913) and Albert E (1914). And marriage searches for I H (Ettie?) (1934), E M (1936), A E (1936), E S (1939), T E (1940), J M (1943), and) A W (1950's).
(Also an interesting escapade involving Alfred W in 1941 on Trove with a picture
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/169767975?searchTerm=alfred%20senior&searchLimits=l-state=New+South+Wales|||l-decade=194|||l-year=1941|||l-title=699)
You've also inspired me - might now continue the search for my grandfather who also was born in NZ and disappeared after his marriage in Australia ;)
Best wishes,
M
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Hi there,
May I gently mention that the NSW BDM and ACT BDM both have restricted access for the first thirty years on death certificates, so I am a tad concerned as to how we can confirm that we are not breaking RChat rules if we are naming Laura's children in any posts. In NSW that is considered to be identifying the individual, and is likely to be an infringement of their expectation to privacy of the individual.
Yes, while one or more of Laura's children may well be no longer living, BUT if they died within the past thirty years, we cannot easily confirm this.
Australia has strict privacy rules and regulations.
I have living relatives who are elderly and yes, they are old enough to have their NSW birth registration displayed online, and their NSW marriage registration displayed online too, but they are still very much alive, and like so many NSW and ACT seniors, they are very very keen for their privacy to be respected.
There is a 404 page pdf available to download via the ACT BDM website, for registrations from 1930 (commencement) to 1973.
ADD
Online index to some death/funeral/probate notices from newspapers including within the restricted periods :)
http://www.ryersonindex.org/
Cheers, JM
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Thanks everyone, but after viewing the death notice, I already knew the names of Laura's children from her first marriage (it mentions the married names of her daughters too). I would imagine she had all of her children before 1920 so the chances of any of them being alive is very low. I managed to find out that the youngest daughter (J) married a Roy A and they had a son Roy Jnr. I found a Roy A in the white pages in Canberra and I took the bull by the horns and decided to phone last night. I asked him if he was married to a J (I wasn't sure if he was the Roy Snr or the Roy Jnr) and he said "no comment" and hung up in my ear! I phoned again this morning and he said that Joyce was his mother but he can't remember if he has any grandmothers. He sounded very very old, so I'm wondering if it might actually be the Roy snr? I asked him if he had any kids and he said he had hundreds and then started ranting about stuff that I had no idea about, and then hung up on me again. I'm no expert but he was definately very senile. If J and Roy got married in 1943 and J's mother Ruth married Leslie Joseph Thomas in 1942, I would say it will be Laura's grandchildren that would remember Leslie the most. Would you agree? I'm taking my daughter away dancing for 4 days (she has qualified for the nationals here in NZ) and we going away to prepare for it so I won't be able to do anything else until I come back. If anyone has any ideas on how I may find Laura's grandchildren, I would appreciate any feedback. I will still be checking in while I am gone. This whole journey has been incredible, I really feel like I know everyone involved.
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I think you should hasten slowly.
I can assure you that there are people born before WWI who are alive and alert and living in Australia.
There are actually some very good not for profit organisations that help reunite family members, and their trained counsellors have professional skills to make the contacts you are seeking.
I think if anyone has details of names of descendants, they should not post these details on the thread. The PM system is a sensible alternative.
http://www.salvationarmy.org.nz/need-assistance/family-tracing
ADD and gently may I mention that these threads are very easily found at a google search, and can be read without logging on. :)
Some of my younger set have been known to give some extremely odd responses when receiving phone calls from strangers. They do so by choice, particularly if someone is asking about any older rellies. They give the callers 'the run around' and will not ever disclose any logical info .... Simply because they know their rellies expect their privacy to be respected.
Cheers, JM
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Thanks for the info JM, I didn't realise that we weren't allowed to mention people that were still living! Most of Laura's children would have been born over 100 years ago, so all I meant was that there is only a very slim chance of any of them being alive still, sorry I didn't mean to sound rude. I think in this case, this all happened so long ago, Leslie died 51 years ago, so there may not be too many living relatives that remember him that well. I remember Leslie's first wife (my Gran, she died when I was 5) very vaguely and she died 12 years after Leslie. I think I watch too many tv programmes of families reuniting! They all seem to be happy to find relatives that never knew of haha.