RootsChat.Com
Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Argyllshire => Topic started by: ZerooreZ on Sunday 04 October 15 07:05 BST (UK)
-
I'm stuck in my search at this couple. They had a son, Robert Walker. One source says he was born in 1829. Another 1831.
Another source says that the elder Robert Walker's wife's name was Muiraleen Campbell Buchanan, yet the younger Robert Walker's marriage registration says it's Flora.
Apparently the younger Robert Walker was born on Easdale Island and his father worked in the quarry, yet there's a document that says he was a cottar.
I would be very happy for any information that would clarify things.
-
Hi ZerooreZ,
Is this your Robert WALKER Jnr, as follows?
MARRIAGE :
Robert WALKER Jnr married Margaret WATSON 27 May 1854 at Houston And Killellan, Renfrewshire
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XYQQ-D55
Among their many children:
Son: Robert WALKER b 22 Mar 1855, Houston, Renfrew (he is with Watson Grandparents in 1861 Census)
Son: William Watson WALKER b 1857, Houston, Renfrew
Daughter Margaret Buchanan WALKER born 1865, Kilmalcom Renfrewshire
CENSUS of the couple and their children:
Census 1861: Robert WALKER age 30, in Houston & Killelan, Renfrewshire, PoB Islay, Argyll
Census 1871: Robert WALKER age 40, in Kilmalcolm, Renfrewshire, PoB: Kilbrandon, ----shire
Census 1881: Robert WALKER age 50, in Kilmalcolm, Renfrewshire. PoB: Kilbrandon, Argyll
Census 1891: Robert WALKER age 60, in Inchinnan, Renfrewshire. PoB: Kilbrandon, Argyll
Census 1901: Robert WALKER age 70, in Inchinnan, Renfrewshire. PoB: Easdale, Argyll
Robert's age is consistent 1861 through to 1901 - that is: born 1831.
What are your sources for his being born 1829?
Census 1841: Shows a Robert WALKER, age 12, in Balvicar Village which is on Island of Seil - near Easdale Island, but he's not with other WALKERs.
http://www.freecen.org.uk/cgi/search.pl
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balvicar
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easdale
If this is your Robert jnr, he married in1854 BEFORE the 1855 start of Civil Registration in Scotland - so I'd be a bit surprised if his parents are named on his marriage record, especially his mother?
What does his death record say about his parents?
What is the source of his father Robert's occupations? (He could have been a Cottar who worked on the slate mines - or work with slate from the mines as an aside.)
What is the source of his mother's name as : Muiraleen Campbell Buchanan (the first name there is unusual for the place & times)
Cheers
AMBLY
-
Thank you so much for your interest in this.
Yes, the first person you list is the son, and I also came up with that birth year (1831) from census records.
The 1829 date is from a small book published on the McVannel clan. It lists his birthdate as June 1, 1829.
I'm curious about that boy from the 1841 census as the name and age would match up, but it's hard to say conclusively that it's whom I'm looking for.
What's interesting about that census record is that that household is a real mix of names and ages. I wonder if that's the Robert Walker that I'm looking for, that he was temporarily put up in some home away from his parents.
Yes, it's unfortunate timing, being married a year before the statutory marriage records started. However I did find a marriage banns. It doesn't mention any parents' names.
I found a short death record that just gives his parents names, but no birth dates or places for them. His father was Robert Walker and mother Flora Buchanan. This record states that the father was a cottar.
The name Muiraleen Campbell Buchanan comes from a relative. I think she made a mistake, as clearly the death record of the jr. Robert Walker says his mother's name was Flora. Then again, maybe that was a nickname.
Thank you again for your help.
-
Dear Ambly,
I'm curious where you found the census data that you noted:
CENSUS of the couple and their children:
Census 1861: Robert WALKER age 30, in Houston & Killelan, Renfrewshire, PoB Islay, Argyll
Census 1871: Robert WALKER age 40, in Kilmalcolm, Renfrewshire, PoB: Kilbrandon, ----shire
Census 1881: Robert WALKER age 50, in Kilmalcolm, Renfrewshire. PoB: Kilbrandon, Argyll
Census 1891: Robert WALKER age 60, in Inchinnan, Renfrewshire. PoB: Kilbrandon, Argyll
Census 1901: Robert WALKER age 70, in Inchinnan, Renfrewshire. PoB: Easdale, Argyll
I didn't find that on the FreeCEN page, and at Family Search I've only seen individual entries, not households.
It's interesting that this Robert Walker is listed as being born in Islay, Kilbrandon, and Easdale. Easdale is part of Kilbrandon, but Islay is a different place. I haven't been able to find a record of his birth. I've checked the records at Scotlands People (Old Parish Registers and Catholic Registers).
I haven't found any marriage record for his parents, and unfortunately haven't found any death records either. The story is that his father died in a quarry accident at Easdale Island and that after that, the younger Robert Walker walked down to Renfrew with his mother to start a new life.
If the 1841 census entry with a Robert Walker as a 12 year old in Balvicar Village is him, then that would match with the 1829 date of birth that I have for him, but it makes me wonder why he was in such a mixed household and where his parents were at the time. The quarry accident supposedly happened in the late 40s, so his father should have still been around at this time. Nobody in that household has the same surname and they're all different ages. There isn't a husband and wife in that household either. It just seems like some random collection of people.
I was in touch with the Easdale Island Folk Museum and they don't have any Walkers in their records.
ZerooreZ
-
CENSUS of the couple and their children:
Census 1861: Robert WALKER age 30, in Houston & Killelan, Renfrewshire, PoB Islay, Argyll
Census 1871: Robert WALKER age 40, in Kilmalcolm, Renfrewshire, PoB: Kilbrandon, ----shire
Census 1881: Robert WALKER age 50, in Kilmalcolm, Renfrewshire. PoB: Kilbrandon, Argyll
Census 1891: Robert WALKER age 60, in Inchinnan, Renfrewshire. PoB: Kilbrandon, Argyll
Census 1901: Robert WALKER age 70, in Inchinnan, Renfrewshire. PoB: Easdale, Argyll
It's interesting that this Robert Walker is listed as being born in Islay, Kilbrandon, and Easdale. Easdale is part of Kilbrandon, but Islay is a different place. I haven't been able to find a record of his birth. I've checked the records at Scotlands People (Old Parish Registers and Catholic Registers).
ZerooreZ
The place of birth 1861 for Robert states Islay, Argyll, it's the others he was born Kilbrandon.
Annie
ADDED......may have been a mistake as there is a Kilchoman on Islay (possibly misheard & assumed to be Islay?
-
I'm curious where you found the census data that you noted:
CENSUS of the couple and their children:
1861>1901
I didn't find that on the FreeCEN page, and at Family Search I've only seen individual entries, not households.
FreeCEN is an ongoing project & doesn't have all years for all shires/burghs; 1841 is the most complete all round, followed by 1851, a smattering of other years. There are other (subscription) sites where either all Scottish Census are available as transcribed records for each 'household' together, or on Scotlands People as images (once you've found the right people through their search engine).
I had presumed you already had all these census 1861>1901. If you would like me to type up & post each household in each one, just let me know !
It's interesting that this Robert Walker is listed as being born in Islay, Kilbrandon, and Easdale. Easdale is part of Kilbrandon, but Islay is a different place.
"Islay" is what has been transcribed by a pay site. To be 100% sure this is what is written down in the enumeration book, you'd have to check the original image.
I haven't been able to find a record of his birth. I've checked the records at Scotlands People (Old Parish Registers and Catholic Registers).
You may never find a record of his birth - and as it's before 1855, such a record would be of a christening/baptism as opposed to the actual birth. - and as such, a christening might occur close to a birth or in some cases, years late - or not at all. He may well have not been Established Church of Scotland (which is what the OPR's are, by and large); Catholicism whilst not impossible, would probably be less likely than other Non-conformists : Weslyan Baptist Methodist , etc. OPR or Non-Conformist records can be patchy in both survival or existence in the first place, record keeping differed from shire-to-shire and parish-to-parish, clerk-to-clerk. Read more here:
https://familysearch.org/learn/wiki/en/Kilbrandon_and_Kilchattan,_Argyll,_Scotland_Church_Records
I haven't found any marriage record for his parents, and unfortunately haven't found any death records either.
Ditto
The story is that his father died in a quarry accident at Easdale Island and that after that, the younger Robert Walker walked down to Renfrew with his mother to start a new life.
Try and find out if there is at least a register of mining accidents in Scottish Slate mines, or if there was a larger accident at the Easdale mine in the 1840's, perhaps one which involved a number of people rather than a single incident with a single miner.
If the 1841 census entry with a Robert Walker as a 12 year old in Balvicar Village is him……………..It just seems like some random collection of people.
At the ripe age of 12, Robert would have easily been out to work at that age and away from family; perhaps he was deemed too young for the quarries, or his parents wanted to keep him away from the quarries? In any case , if that's him in 1841 (as it looks like it could be), he's been found a 'place' with the McKay family of Isle of Seil where father McKAY's occupation is "Post" - quite an important job in the wide area, keeping communications etc, and like as not ran the local store too - certainly enough to occupy both McKAY men and the 2 male servants.
The 1841 Census isn't random. And very much unusually for FreeCEN, they've transcribed the record quite incorrectly. This is how it should be, I checked the image - the 1841 household of Archibald McKAY snr:
//
Arch'd McKAY 60, Post - Y
Mary McKAY 55, - Y
Catherine McKAY 20, - Y
Arch'd McKAY 25, Post - Y
/
William GILCHRIST 20, M.S. - Y
Robert WALKER 12, M.S. - Y
Arch'd CURRIE 8 - N
//
The image shows no 3 year old Jean MAY at all, and James CLERK is the head of the next household after the McKAYS!
The household after them have been transcribed correctly, it's just a hiccup with the McKAYS.
Apparently the younger Robert Walker was born on Easdale Island and his father worked in the quarry, yet there's a document that says he was a cottar.
Take a look at the household after the McKAYS in 1841 on FreeCEN, where you will see Mary McQUEEN was the Cottar, and the men in the household were in the Quarries. Similar with many other households, quite often an older man as a Cottar, younger men as Quarriers.
Cheers
AMBLY
-
...Among their many children:
Son: Robert WALKER b 22 Mar 1855, Houston, Renfrew (he is with Watson Grandparents in 1861 Census)
With all of Ambly's info, would be worthwhile hopefully you looking at the original image for this birth. The first year of official registration and lots of extra info was included as the entries ran over two pages of the register for one year only. For births, it normally includes in 1855, date and place of parents' marriage, where parents were born and how old they were and how many children they had (alive/deceased, boys/girls). You might get some extra piece of confirmation from the info there.
Monica :)
-
Ambly,
FreeCEN is an ongoing project & doesn't have all years for all shires/burghs; 1841 is the most complete all round, followed by 1851, a smattering of other years. There are other (subscription) sites where either all Scottish Census are available as transcribed records for each 'household' together, or on Scotlands People as images (once you've found the right people through their search engine).
I had presumed you already had all these census 1861>1901. If you would like me to type up & post each household in each one, just let me know !
That would be great actually, to see those particular households' entries. As for censuses, I've just looked at what is available online for free. I have used Scotlands People lately, but not for censuses.
You may never find a record of his birth - and as it's before 1855, such a record would be of a christening/baptism as opposed to the actual birth. - and as such, a christening might occur close to a birth or in some cases, years late - or not at all. He may well have not been Established Church of Scotland (which is what the OPR's are, by and large); Catholicism whilst not impossible, would probably be less likely than other Non-conformists : Weslyan Baptist Methodist , etc. OPR or Non-Conformist records can be patchy in both survival or existence in the first place, record keeping differed from shire-to-shire and parish-to-parish, clerk-to-clerk. Read more here:
https://familysearch.org/learn/wiki/en/Kilbrandon_and_Kilchattan,_Argyll,_Scotland_Church_Records
Thank you.
Try and find out if there is at least a register of mining accidents in Scottish Slate mines, or if there was a larger accident at the Easdale mine in the 1840's, perhaps one which involved a number of people rather than a single incident with a single miner.
Thanks. I'm looking into that.
At the ripe age of 12, Robert would have easily been out to work at that age and away from family; perhaps he was deemed too young for the quarries, or his parents wanted to keep him away from the quarries? In any case , if that's him in 1841 (as it looks like it could be), he's been found a 'place' with the McKay family of Isle of Seil where father McKAY's occupation is "Post" - quite an important job in the wide area, keeping communications etc, and like as not ran the local store too - certainly enough to occupy both McKAY men and the 2 male servants.
It's interesting to think about, the young Robert Walker out working in a small village, while his dad is working in the quarries. I wonder where that would have left his mom though.
The 1841 Census isn't random. And very much unusually for FreeCEN, they've transcribed the record quite incorrectly. This is how it should be, I checked the image - the 1841 household of Archibald McKAY snr:
//
Arch'd McKAY 60, Post - Y
Mary McKAY 55, - Y
Catherine McKAY 20, - Y
Arch'd McKAY 25, Post - Y
/
William GILCHRIST 20, M.S. - Y
Robert WALKER 12, M.S. - Y
Arch'd CURRIE 8 - N
//
The image shows no 3 year old Jean MAY at all, and James CLERK is the head of the next household after the McKAYS!
The household after them have been transcribed correctly, it's just a hiccup with the McKAYS.
Thank you for that.
Apparently the younger Robert Walker was born on Easdale Island and his father worked in the quarry, yet there's a document that says he was a cottar.
Take a look at the household after the McKAYS in 1841 on FreeCEN, where you will see Mary McQUEEN was the Cottar, and the men in the household were in the Quarries. Similar with many other households, quite often an older man as a Cottar, younger men as Quarriers.
I did see that in some of the entries.
Thank you for your interest again. I hope you're enjoying working on your own family history as well.
ZerooreZ
-
Hi Monica,
With all of Ambly's info, would be worthwhile hopefully you looking at the original image for this birth. The first year of official registration and lots of extra info was included as the entries ran over two pages of the register for one year only. For births, it normally includes in 1855, date and place of parents' marriage, where parents were born and how old they were and how many children they had (alive/deceased, boys/girls). You might get some extra piece of confirmation from the info there.
I did look for a record of this particular Robert Walker's birth, and found one at Scotlands People. It didn't give me any information other than what I already knew. It did give his father's birth place as Argyllshire, but no birth date (although I do have a birth date from a different source). It does say that the father was 25 years old at the time, which suggests he was born in 1830 or 1829. That would confirm the 1829 date that I have, but seems to be in conflict with the 1831 date suggested by the various censuses. I've heard that sometimes ages are rounded off in censuses, so perhaps that was the case.
Thanks for the help.
ZerooreZ
-
It's interesting to think about, the young Robert Walker out working in a small village, while his dad is working in the quarries. I wonder where that would have left his mom though.
Times were indeed very different and hard then, children barely into double digits, sometimes not even that - put out to work to earn their keep :(
Another helpful habit, was the value of the Scottish woman's maiden name - unlike her English counterpart, the Scottish woman's maiden name was included on the baptisms of her children, on her death & burial records, on her headstone. And very often, she reverted to using her maiden name if widowed - sometimes even when her husband was alive and with her, a Scottish woman would be listed on a Census under her maiden name. If a widow remarried, it would be under her maiden name, not her first married name.
So Robert's mother could be listed under a maiden name if she is alive in 1841/1851. She could also be listed under another name entirely of she was widowed & had remarried (and as such her children could be listed under that new name too).
Unfortunately the names you have for Robert (b abt 1830)'s mother are not from a record provided directly by Robert himself:
Flora BUCHANAN - this is from his death record and therefore, as was common, the informant may have been mistaken as to her name - maybe Flora was a grandmother, for example (that was a common mistake).
Muiraleen Campbell BUCHANAN - what was your relative's source? I haven't found 'Muiraleen' as a name anywhere. And in any case, it would be unusual. But upon gazing at it, I'm wondering…..could it be a Gaelic rendering, or a Gaelic pet form, of a name like Margaret? Mairead (Margaret), Magaidh (Maggie)? (Hi Monica ;D, what's your thoughts on this ?)
I'm looking at Robert WALKER and Margaret WATSON's children for a naming pattern - another tradition very much adhered to in Scotland, and often a very useful clue/tool. I'm coming up with 'Margaret BUCHANAN' as a name? as follows:
From Census and Family search, the names of their children born:
Robert WALKER 1855
William Watson WALKER 1856
Duncan WALKER 1858
Mary WALKER 1862
Margaret Buchanan WALKER 1865
James WALKER 1867
John WALKER 1869
Peter WALKER 1871
There are child size gaps at crucial points in the timeline of births, but if this is the full list of live births to this couple then the pattern, if used might be:
1st Son, after father's father: Robert WALKER, b 1855
2nd Son, after mother's father: William Watson WALKER, b 1856
3rd Son, after father (but name already covered by 1st son)
1st Daughter, after mother's mother: Mary WALKER, b 1862
2nd Daughter, after father's mother: Margaret Buchanan WALKER, b 1865
3rd Daughter, after mother (but name already covered by 2nd daughter?)
Were Margaret WATSON's parents William WATSON & Mary McFARLANE?
Cheers
AMBLY
PS I will type up the Census tomorrow for you!
-
Thanks.
That was quite interesting.
My guess is that when the younger Robert Walker's son, James, provided the information for his father's death record, that perhaps his grandmother's nickname was Flora.
I'm confused about the name Muiraleen too, but an aunt found that name somewhere. Googling that name, only a handful of links come up, so it doesn't seem to have been a popular name at all, but it has existed, as has "Muirleen".
From the naming pattern, it seems likely that her real name could've been Margaret Buchanan, as you mentioned.
Were Margaret WATSON's parents William WATSON & Mary McFARLANE?
No. Actually they were William Watson and Mary McVannel. A book was written on the "McVannel clan", so I'm OK with that branch of my tree.
Thanks for your help.
-
Hello,
I had some interesting feedback when looking for an ancestor, but I'm still can't get past this person. (Old chat:
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=732149.0 )
I have a lot of information about the life of my ancestor, Robert Walker, however the details of his young life and who his parents were are unclear.
Robert Walker was married to Margaret Watson in West Glen, Houston, Renfrewshire on June 2, 1854. That and what follows in his life is clear.
According to a relative, his father, also Robert, died in a quarry accident on Easdale Island, and that young Robert was born on this island. Apparently his mother was Muiraleen Campbell Buchanan. However, sources I've found say otherwise.
Robert Walker's statutory death record states that he died at 79 in 1909. and that his parents were Robert Walker, a cottar, and Flora Buchanan, both deceased at the time of Robert's death.
According to various censuses:
1901 - Can't find him
1891 - Can't find him
1881 - 50, born in Kilbarchan, Argyll (but Kilbarchan is in Renfrew, not Argyll)
1871 - 40, born in Kilbrandon
1861 - 30, born in Islay
1851 - Can't find him, however, I did find a 20-year-old Robert Walker working as a servant with a Finlay family in Gimmerscroft, Lanarkshire. I think this may be him, as my aunt told me that he left Argyll for the Glasgow area after his father died. However, this census entry says he's from Oban.
1841 - This is a 12-year-old (not 10) Robert Walker living in Kilbrandon, and I assume that this is him, but of course I can't prove it. He is a servant for the McKay family. I also found a Muir Buchannan (two n's) just down the street, 36, cottager. I think this may be his mother. She is the only one in that household. It would make sense. Her huband died in an accident, so she's alone, reverted to her maiden name, and probably can't support her son, so he's down the road helping with a different family.
I can't find a birth record for a Robert Walker in this area around 1830.
I can't find a marriage record for (his parents), Robert Walker and Flora (or Muir/aleen) Buchan(n)an.
Robert Walker's marriage record doesn't state who his parents were, and only has minimal information.
I contacted a museum on Easdale Island, wondering if they had records of quarry accidents, and who was killed in them, and if they know of any gravesites on the island, or near the island, but they couldn't help me.
I've also checked Find-a-Grave and Billion Graves for graves for Walkers in the area, but haven't been lucky.
Any ideas how to get past the block of not knowing who his parents were?
Thanks for any help!
I.W.
-
Robert Walker's statutory death record states that he died at 79 in 1909. and that his parents were Robert Walker, a cottar, and Flora Buchanan, both deceased at the time of Robert's death.
Who was the informant?
According to various censuses
Are your censuses from the original documents or from some transcription or other? If the latter, you need to check the originals to eliminate the possibility of bad transcriptions. (Ancestry in particular is notorious for its poor transcriptions of the census.) The originals are at www.scotlandspeoppe.gov.uk.
I also found a Muir Buchannan (two n's)
Don't ascribe any significance whatsoever to variations in spelling. There was no such thing as 'correct' spelling until the late 19th century.
Her huband died in an accident, so she's alone, reverted to her maiden name, and probably can't support her son, so he's down the road helping with a different family.
First, until relatively recently a married woman in Scotland retained and was known by her own surname, and it's very common to find a married woman listed under her maiden surname in the early censuses with her husband and children. So do not assume she 'reverted'. She was probably always known as 'Mistress Buchanan'.
Second, it's not unusual for children as young as 12 to go to work, usually not too far from home. It was not necessarily a case of Robert being forced to go out to work.
Third, if Mistress Buchanan could not support her family, she would have applied to the kirk for assistance from the poor's fund or, after 1845, to the parochial board. If - and it's a big if - the parochial board records have survived, Argyll and Bute Archives should either have them or know where they are. See https://liveargyll.co.uk/facility/archives/
The kirk's records of poor relief will be in the Kirk Session records. If the relevant records have survived, you can search them on Scotland's People www.scotlandspeoppe.gov.uk.
Any ideas how to get past the block of not knowing who his parents were?
Have you considered the possibility that he was illegitimate? If so, and if the relevant kirk session records have survived, you might find there a record of his parents being disciplined for the sin.
There is no record on Scotland's People of anyone at any time with the given name Muiraleen.
-
I think this is your Robert WALKER.
Ancestry Scotland Census 1891
Brownfield Inchinnan Renfrewshire
WALKER Robert 60y farmer b. Kilbrandon, Argyleshire
WALKER Margaret 58y b. Greenock, Renfrewshire
WALKER James 23y son b. Kilmalcolm, Renfrewshire
WALKER Peter 19y son b. Kilmalcolm, Renfrewshire
WALKER Martha 17y dau b. Kilmalcolm, Renfrewshire
Census 1901
Brownsfield, Inchinnan, Renfrewshire
WALKER Robert 70y farmer b. Easdale, Argyleshire
WALKER James 33y son b. Kilmalcolm, Renfrewshire
WALKER Peter 29y son b. Kilmalcolm, Renfrewshire
RICHMOND Margaret B 35y dau b. Kilmalcolm, Renfrewshire
RICHMOND Margaret 9y g.dau b. Greenock, Renfrewshire
McMEEKIN Isabella 21y servant b. New Monkland, Lanarkshire
Use Scotlandspeople to find Will or Robert WALKER, died 7 Dec 1909.
Britishnewspaperarchives....shows estate worth 6,000 + pounds.
-
EDITED.
Sorry! Meant to add to new post.
www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=854069.0
Monica
-
As above.
Monica
-
These suggestions from Ambly I thought were worth pursuing in respect of Robert's mother? Were you able to follow up at all?
....Flora BUCHANAN - this is from his death record and therefore, as was common, the informant may have been mistaken as to her name - maybe Flora was a grandmother, for example (that was a common mistake).
Muiraleen Campbell BUCHANAN - what was your relative's source? I haven't found 'Muiraleen' as a name anywhere. And in any case, it would be unusual. But upon gazing at it, I'm wondering…..could it be a Gaelic rendering, or a Gaelic pet form, of a name like Margaret? Mairead (Margaret), Magaidh (Maggie)?
I'm looking at Robert WALKER and Margaret WATSON's children for a naming pattern - another tradition very much adhered to in Scotland, and often a very useful clue/tool. I'm coming up with 'Margaret BUCHANAN' as a name? as follows:
From Census and Family search, the names of their children born:
Robert WALKER 1855
William Watson WALKER 1856
Duncan WALKER 1858
Mary WALKER 1862
Margaret Buchanan WALKER 1865
James WALKER 1867
John WALKER 1869
Peter WALKER 1871
There are child size gaps at crucial points in the timeline of births, but if this is the full list of live births to this couple then the pattern, if used might be:
1st Son, after father's father: Robert WALKER, b 1855
2nd Son, after mother's father: William Watson WALKER, b 1856
3rd Son, after father (but name already covered by 1st son)
1st Daughter, after mother's mother: Mary WALKER, b 1862
2nd Daughter, after father's mother: Margaret Buchanan WALKER, b 1865
3rd Daughter, after mother (but name already covered by 2nd daughter?)
....
-
Also on the other post, Ambly had found and provided for you the 1891 and 1901 censuses. Looks like you have the complete set for Robert (albeit with the question marks up to his marriage in 1854).
Monica
-
Whilst there does not look to be any Walkers in Kilbrandon on the 1841 census, there are Buchanans. Two Buchanan families living in Easdale. This one www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5a1411c2f4040b9d6ef817fa/george-buchanan-1841-argyllshire-kilbrandon-kilchattn-1791-?locale=en is headed up by George and wife Margaret Stalker. They had a daughter Flora born c. 1818 who died in Easdale in 1902 (other surname Ferguson and aged 84 at when she died). This Flora would be too young to be Robert Walker's mother though. She is fairly consistent on the censuses with a birth year c. 1818 :-\
The other Easdale family in 1841 is this one www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/597e8d13f4040b024a5ba192/william-buchanan-1871-argyllshire-kilbrandon-kilchattn-1826-?locale=en
Both George and William look to have worked in the slate quarries of the area.
Monica
-
The Muir Buchanan that you found in 1841 www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5a1411bdf4040b9d6ef80f08/muir-buchannan-1841-argyllshire-kilbrandon-kilchattn-1805-?locale=en
She looks to have died in the Kilbrandon area at the age of 68 in 1859. Mother's maiden name of Cameron. Don't think she was married as there is no other surname for her listing on the index.
Monica
-
It may be worth looking at the minutes of the Kilbrandon Kirk Session for the period to see if anything appears. There are detailed proclamations of banns in the minutes from 1825. I looked 1825 - 1840 and there is no Walker marriage of any kind.
-
Robert Walker's statutory death record states that he died at 79 in 1909. and that his parents were Robert Walker, a cottar, and Flora Buchanan, both deceased at the time of Robert's death.
Who was the informant?
Thank you for your reply. The informant was one of his sons, James.
According to various censuses
Are your censuses from the original documents or from some transcription or other? If the latter, you need to check the originals to eliminate the possibility of bad transcriptions. (Ancestry in particular is notorious for its poor transcriptions of the census.) The originals are at www.scotlandspeoppe.gov.uk.
They're from transcriptions. freecen.org.uk and the LDS 1881 census from ScotlandsPeople.
I also found a Muir Buchannan (two n's)
Don't ascribe any significance whatsoever to variations in spelling. There was no such thing as 'correct' spelling until the late 19th century.
Understood.
Her huband died in an accident, so she's alone, reverted to her maiden name, and probably can't support her son, so he's down the road helping with a different family.
First, until relatively recently a married woman in Scotland retained and was known by her own surname, and it's very common to find a married woman listed under her maiden surname in the early censuses with her husband and children. So do not assume she 'reverted'. She was probably always known as 'Mistress Buchanan'.
Second, it's not unusual for children as young as 12 to go to work, usually not too far from home. It was not necessarily a case of Robert being forced to go out to work.
Third, if Mistress Buchanan could not support her family, she would have applied to the kirk for assistance from the poor's fund or, after 1845, to the parochial board. If - and it's a big if - the parochial board records have survived, Argyll and Bute Archives should either have them or know where they are. See https://liveargyll.co.uk/facility/archives/
The kirk's records of poor relief will be in the Kirk Session records. If the relevant records have survived, you can search them on Scotland's People www.scotlandspeoppe.gov.uk.
OK.
Any ideas how to get past the block of not knowing who his parents were?
Have you considered the possibility that he was illegitimate? If so, and if the relevant kirk session records have survived, you might find there a record of his parents being disciplined for the sin.
There is no record on Scotland's People of anyone at any time with the given name Muiraleen.
Yes, he could be illegitimate. I didn't know there might be records of parents being disciplined for having an illegitimate child.
Thank you.
-
I think this is your Robert WALKER.
Ancestry Scotland Census 1891
Brownfield Inchinnan Renfrewshire
WALKER Robert 60y farmer b. Kilbrandon, Argyleshire
WALKER Margaret 58y b. Greenock, Renfrewshire
WALKER James 23y son b. Kilmalcolm, Renfrewshire
WALKER Peter 19y son b. Kilmalcolm, Renfrewshire
WALKER Martha 17y dau b. Kilmalcolm, Renfrewshire
Census 1901
Brownsfield, Inchinnan, Renfrewshire
WALKER Robert 70y farmer b. Easdale, Argyleshire
WALKER James 33y son b. Kilmalcolm, Renfrewshire
WALKER Peter 29y son b. Kilmalcolm, Renfrewshire
RICHMOND Margaret B 35y dau b. Kilmalcolm, Renfrewshire
RICHMOND Margaret 9y g.dau b. Greenock, Renfrewshire
McMEEKIN Isabella 21y servant b. New Monkland, Lanarkshire
Use Scotlandspeople to find Will or Robert WALKER, died 7 Dec 1909.
Britishnewspaperarchives....shows estate worth 6,000 + pounds.
Thank you for finding those two censuses. That certainly seems to be him.
It's interesting how the different censuses give him different birthplaces: Kilbrandon, Kilbarchan (I wonder if this was mistakenly written instead of Kilbrandon), Easdale, Islay, and possibly Oban.
-
These suggestions from Ambly I thought were worth pursuing in respect of Robert's mother? Were you able to follow up at all?
....Flora BUCHANAN - this is from his death record and therefore, as was common, the informant may have been mistaken as to her name - maybe Flora was a grandmother, for example (that was a common mistake).
Muiraleen Campbell BUCHANAN - what was your relative's source? I haven't found 'Muiraleen' as a name anywhere. And in any case, it would be unusual. But upon gazing at it, I'm wondering…..could it be a Gaelic rendering, or a Gaelic pet form, of a name like Margaret? Mairead (Margaret), Magaidh (Maggie)?
I'm looking at Robert WALKER and Margaret WATSON's children for a naming pattern - another tradition very much adhered to in Scotland, and often a very useful clue/tool. I'm coming up with 'Margaret BUCHANAN' as a name? as follows:
From Census and Family search, the names of their children born:
Robert WALKER 1855
William Watson WALKER 1856
Duncan WALKER 1858
Mary WALKER 1862
Margaret Buchanan WALKER 1865
James WALKER 1867
John WALKER 1869
Peter WALKER 1871
There are child size gaps at crucial points in the timeline of births, but if this is the full list of live births to this couple then the pattern, if used might be:
1st Son, after father's father: Robert WALKER, b 1855
2nd Son, after mother's father: William Watson WALKER, b 1856
3rd Son, after father (but name already covered by 1st son)
1st Daughter, after mother's mother: Mary WALKER, b 1862
2nd Daughter, after father's mother: Margaret Buchanan WALKER, b 1865
3rd Daughter, after mother (but name already covered by 2nd daughter?)
....
Thank you. Yes, I was quite interested in this post and looked into it. When looking for records of Flora, I was also looking for Margarets.
-
Also on the other post, Ambly had found and provided for you the 1891 and 1901 censuses. Looks like you have the complete set for Robert (albeit with the question marks up to his marriage in 1854).
Monica
Yes. His pre-marriage years are quite unclear to me compared to post-marriage.
-
Whilst there does not look to be any Walkers in Kilbrandon on the 1841 census, there are Buchanans. Two Buchanan families living in Easdale. This one www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5a1411c2f4040b9d6ef817fa/george-buchanan-1841-argyllshire-kilbrandon-kilchattn-1791-?locale=en is headed up by George and wife Margaret Stalker. They had a daughter Flora born c. 1818 who died in Easdale in 1902 (other surname Ferguson and aged 84 at when she died). This Flora would be too young to be Robert Walker's mother though. She is fairly consistent on the censuses with a birth year c. 1818 :-\
The other Easdale family in 1841 is this one www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/597e8d13f4040b024a5ba192/william-buchanan-1871-argyllshire-kilbrandon-kilchattn-1826-?locale=en
Both George and William look to have worked in the slate quarries of the area.
Monica
Thank you. They could be relatives.
-
The Muir Buchanan that you found in 1841 www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5a1411bdf4040b9d6ef80f08/muir-buchannan-1841-argyllshire-kilbrandon-kilchattn-1805-?locale=en
She looks to have died in the Kilbrandon area at the age of 68 in 1859. Mother's maiden name of Cameron. Don't think she was married as there is no other surname for her listing on the index.
Monica
Thank you. Yes, that's the entry I found. I think it's possible this is his mother.
-
It may be worth looking at the minutes of the Kilbrandon Kirk Session for the period to see if anything appears. There are detailed proclamations of banns in the minutes from 1825. I looked 1825 - 1840 and there is no Walker marriage of any kind.
Thank you very much for looking into that. :) (This older Walker seems to be a mystery. Maybe he was a vagabond. Dropped into town, had a child out of wedlock, got killed in an accident...)
-
Thank you. I've read your replies on the newer post.
-
It may be worth looking at the minutes of the Kilbrandon Kirk Session for the period to see if anything appears. There are detailed proclamations of banns in the minutes from 1825. I looked 1825 - 1840 and there is no Walker marriage of any kind.
Thank you very much for looking into that. :) (This older Walker seems to be a mystery. Maybe he was a vagabond. Dropped into town, had a child out of wedlock, got killed in an accident...)
If that is the case, the details should be in the kirk session minutes, which are free to read on Scotlandspeople.
-
The Muir Buchanan that you found in 1841 www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5a1411bdf4040b9d6ef80f08/muir-buchannan-1841-argyllshire-kilbrandon-kilchattn-1805-?locale=en
She looks to have died in the Kilbrandon area at the age of 68 in 1859. Mother's maiden name of Cameron. Don't think she was married as there is no other surname for her listing on the index.
Monica
Thank you. Yes, that's the entry I found. I think it's possible this is his mother.
Maybe a mistake made on that 1859 death entry on the mother's maiden name of Cameron?
There is this birth or christening entry in the OPRs showing on SP:
Muir BUCHANNAN
Parents PATRICK BUCHANNAN/FLORY CAMPBELL
01/09/1793
515/10 106
Kilbrandon and Kilchattan
Monica
-
George Buchanan, who we have from earlier in Easdale with wife Margaret Stalker and family. There is a family tree which gives his birth details as born c. 1786 in Kilbrandon to Peter Buchanan and Flora Campbell (Patrick and Peter are common first name variants).
This looks likely for his death entry:
George BUCHANAN
Age 84
Mother's maiden name CAMPBELL
1870
515/ 32
Kilbrandon and Kilchattan
Do not know if you can access this via subs to Ancestry, but this is the link to that tree www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/151279151/person/372013043040/facts
Monica
-
And confirmation of Robert's mother are to be found on Muir's death reg on 25 Apr 1859 at Balvicar. He was the informant to her death:
-
It may be worth looking at the minutes of the Kilbrandon Kirk Session for the period to see if anything appears. There are detailed proclamations of banns in the minutes from 1825. I looked 1825 - 1840 and there is no Walker marriage of any kind.
Thank you very much for looking into that. :) (This older Walker seems to be a mystery. Maybe he was a vagabond. Dropped into town, had a child out of wedlock, got killed in an accident...)
If that is the case, the details should be in the kirk session minutes, which are free to read on Scotlandspeople.
Thanks for the ideas. I had a brief look at the Kilbrandon records, and I'll look some more. I didn't even know that this resource was available. Even without finding anything about my particular ancestors, it's quite interesting.
-
And confirmation of Robert's mother are to be found on Muir's death reg on 25 Apr 1859 at Balvicar. Her was the informant to her death:
Monica, Thank you very much! You're the best! This is going to take a little time for me to digest. I'm looking at the file from ScotlandsPeople right now. Robert's signature is also almost exactly the same as it is on the birth register for one of his sons.
I was told that his mother moved down to the Glasgow area with him, but this doesn't seem to be the case, or maybe she did, but temporarily.
I wish I wasn't so busy with work today, because I'd like to spend some more time with this. Anyway, I'll get back again.
-
Thank you everyone for your help.
This seems to be the current situation regarding finding information about Robert Walker’s parents. I’m curious what you think:
Robert himself
- from various censuses and other information: born sometime around 1829-1931 in Easdale, Kilbrandon, Kilbarchan (I think this was a mistake), Islay, or Oban.
- Can’t find a record of any Robert Walkers born in Argyll between 1820~1840. - Possibly in Kilbrandon kirk session records, but couldn’t find anything that stuck out. Maybe I should scour through them.
- is likely the Robert Walker listed in the 1841 census living with the McKay family as a servant in Balvicar
- possibly the Robert Walker listed in the 1851 census living with the Finlay family as a servant in Gimmerscroft, Lanarkshire
- married 1855 in Renfrew, where he lived the rest of his life (however, birthdate, place of birth, and parents aren’t noted on marriage record). - Is the marriage record I saw the only one? It seems so minimal.
His mother:
- Muir Buchanan (per death record for which Robert was the informant.)
Flora Walker (m.s. Buchanan) as per Robert’s death record (his son James the informant)
Muiraleen Campbell Buchanan as per info passed down in family (no documentation)
- Probably the Muir Buchannan listed in the Old Parish Registers Births and baptisms, 01/09/1793, however her parents are listed as PATRICK Buchannan and Flory CAMPBELL. (Her death record names her parents as PETER Buchanan and Flora CAMERON) and if born in 1793, she should be about 48 in the 1841 census (although it says she was 36, assuming that’s her). (She would also be about 36-38 years old at the time of giving birth to her son Robert.) Then again, the middle-name of Campbell would match up with my family’s record of “Muiraleen Campbell Buchanan”. Also, according to her death record, she would have been born in 1791 or 1790 (not 1793).
- If she is the Muir Buchanan whose parents are Peter Buchanan and Flora Campbell, then she would very likely be the sister of George Buchanan, whose family tree is found on ancestry.com (I don’t have a subscription, but may do so later.)
- Likely the Muir Buchannan, 36, cottager, living alone, listed in the 1841 census living in Balvicar (although this is about 10 years too young per the birthdate on her death registration)
- Can’t find her in the 1851 census in Argyll or Renfrew
- She doesn’t seem to appear in the Kilbrandon kirk sessions either as getting married or giving birth. Maybe I have to scour these records.
- Her parents were Peter Buchanan and Flora Buchanan (m.n. Cameron) per her death record
- She was recorded as “single” on her death record, which explains the lack of a marriage record
- According to her death record, her body was buried at the church yard of Kilbrandon. Unfortunately I couldn’t find any records of her grave on BillionGraves or Find-A-Grave, although of course those sites don’t cover everything. I also couldn’t find any Walkers in that graveyard on those sites.
His father:
- Robert Walker, cottar (as per son Robert’s death record (his son James the informant))
- Could find entries for 3 Robert Walkers in the Old Parish Registers Births and baptisms in Argyll of ages that could potentially be Robert Jr.’s father - 1813 in Kilcalmonell and Kilberry, 1788 in Kilmartin, 1799 in Campbeltown
- He doesn’t seem to appear in the Kilbrandon kirk sessions either as getting married or being the father of Robert Walker, or anything else.
- Killed in a quarry accident on Easdale Island when his son Robert was still a boy as per info passed down in family (no documentation)
- Can’t find any death records for any Robert Walkers in Argyll 1825-1855
Could find entries for 3 Robert Walkers after that up until 1900: 1858 (69) Tyree, 1878 (80) Kilmeny, 1881 (68) Tarbert
In summary, Robert Walker's early life is unclear. He was a child (possibly the only child) of a Robert Walker and a Muir Buchanan, who were possibly unmarried. Muir likely lived her life in the Kilbrandon area of Argyllshire, where she had Robert, who moved down to Renfrewshire while young, where he got married, had several children, and lived to be old. Robert Walker Sr. may have come from outside of Argyll to work in the slate quarry on Easdale Island. While in the area, he met Muir and they had Robert Jr. They didn’t seem to get married, register the birth of Robert Jr. or have him baptised. Robert Sr. may have died in an accident in the quarry, or otherwise disappeared from Argyllshire.
-
In the distributions of poor money in the Kilbrandon KS records there are two widow Buchanans:
"Widow Buchannan alias Campbell Easdale" gets 3/- on 26-1-1830
"Widow Buchannan Easdale" gets 5/- on 6-9-1832 and 15/- on 17-10-1832
"Widow Buchannan Easdale" gets 5/- on 10-7-1832
"Widow Buchannan Balvicar" gets 2/- on 10-7-1832
There are other entries for them.
-
There is a Mare (or Mure) Buchanan, aged 59 (so, born c. 1792 in Kilbrandon), a wool spinner living in Balvicar on the 1851 census. Looking at a transcript, I think she is by herself and showing as married. You would need to check the original for this. Freecen don't have the 1851 census for Kilbrandon.
The 1793 OPR entry we have for Muir from earlier, this may just be her christening entry not necessarily her birth. Not everyone was christened immediately after their births. Again, this would need to be checked to see if there were any extra details included.
Regarding Muir's death reg., I think son Robert just made a mistake when giving his grandmother's maiden name. For Muir's father, Patrick and Peter naming is not an issue as the name is interchangeable and you can see either/or on documents because of this.
So far as possible siblings for Muir, we do have George and likely also the William we discussed earlier?
George Buchanan and wife Margaret in 1861 www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5a141891f4040b9d6e007e38/george-buchannan-1861-argyllshire-kilbrandon-kilchattn-1788-?locale=en
Monica
-
This is a great site to check for first name variants:
www.whatsinaname.net
Monica
-
Robert Walker was married to Margaret Watson in West Glen, Houston, Renfrewshire on June 2, 1854. That and what follows in his life is clear.
- married 1855 in Renfrew, where he lived the rest of his life (however, birthdate, place of birth, and parents aren’t noted on marriage record). - Is the marriage record I saw the only one? It seems so minimal.
The marriage of Robert and Margaret was in 1854. Official registration in Scotland started the following year, 1855. What you have therefore is an entry from the Old Parish Registers. Very little info was included in these (and you are lucky that you found this entry ;)). It is the statutory registers that include great detail.
Monica
-
Thanks again GR2 and Monica for the help.
I looked through the Kilbrandon kirk session records’ minutes from 1827~1831 and couldn’t find any mention of a Robert Walker. I also checked the register of marriages 1825-1848, but couldn’t find a Robert Walker or Muir Buchannan (however, I did find a record for a younger Flora Buchannan’s marriage, and she seems to be Muir’s niece.)
I made a typo in my previous message. I meant that Robert Walker was married in 1854, not 1855.
I assume the 1841 census record of a Muir Buchanan is the one I’m concerned with, but I wonder why she would be listed as 36 years old, when she should be about 49 at the time.
I’m going to assume that the Patrick Buchannan and Flory Campbell who gave birth to a Muir Buchannan are the same people as the Peter Buchanan and Flora Cameron noted as parents on the death record I have. I didn’t know that Peter and Patrick were interchangeable in Scotland at the time. That’s interesting. I looked at the actual baptism record for Muir in 1793. She was baptised at Armaddy. I found her brother George’s family tree on FamilySearch, but there isn’t any documentation for her or her parents (noted as Peter Buchanan and Flora Campbell). It notes her, but not a husband or children. I’ll probably check out George’s family tree on Ancestry at some point, but am not currently a member.
It seems like she may be one of the Widow Buchannans (I’m guessing the one in Balvicar) in the Kilbrandon kirk session records. If so, it seems like she was widowed soon after giving birth to Robert Walker, although I still can’t find any sign of them getting married or of Robert Walker (Sr.)’s death.
I assume the Mure Buchanan on the 1851 census in Balvicar is the Muir I’m concerned with. That’s curious that she seems to be marked as married as her death record noted her as single (which also makes me wonder about the Widow Buchannan who received money from the church).
The senior Robert Walker is a mystery to me. Perhaps he and Muir got married and/or had a child whether married or not before the available kirk records started. However various records of the junior Robert Walker point to him being born 1829~1830. I wonder if it's possible that his birth, illegitimate or not just wasn't recorded. His mother seems to have lived her whole life in the same area, so it doesn't seem too possible that she would've given birth to Robert in a different area, where there may or may not be a record of a Robert Walker being born.
-
Hmmm.
I have always been under the impression that 'Widow xxx' meants that the person was the widow of Mr xxx. Does anyone have an authoritative source to confirm this or otherwise?
-
Hmmm.
I have always been under the impression that 'Widow xxx' meants that the person was the widow of Mr xxx. Does anyone have an authoritative source to confirm this or otherwise?
I have always found this to be the case. The Widow Buchannan at Easdale appears as "Widow Buchannan alias Campbell Easdale" the first time she appears on the poor roll. I would assume she is likely the Flora Campbell married to (the now deceased) Patrick Buchannan.
-
Thanks, GR2. Glad to know I wasn't imagining things.
-
Hello ZerooreZ
Well, a surprise - I never came across Rootschat until today - and there you are!
I am tracing the family of Robert Watson Walker (1889-1950) who married my great aunt, Agnes Gardner Stark in 1922 and then emigrated to the USA about 1923, ending up in Yonkers, New York. By 1948 when my own parents emigrated from Scotland to Yonkers, several more members of both the Walker and the Stark families had settled there, too. I have wanted to know, why Yonkers ? and so have been following the story… I’m pretty old and there is no one in the family to help, so this has been a fun journey.
Robert Walker/Flora Buchanan - Robert Walker (1829-1909)m Margaret Watson (1832 -1894) -
2nd son William Watson Walker (1856-1938) m Isabella Aitkenhead Smith (1862- !949?) - eldest son Robert Watson Walker (1889-1950) m Agnes Gardner Stark (1895-1983)
So the Robert Walker you are looking at is the great-grandfather of my Robert Watson Walker, and I too have been stuck on confirming his parents. But I have followed all the leads that the previous Rootschat folk have supplied and had already ended up in the same position as yourself - all the same documents and records checked except that I had not known about the accident in the mine/quarry.
I wondered about your connection to the Walkers - are you happy to say?
And thanks to everyone who has helped along the way…
-
Hi ZerooreZ
Welcome to RootsChat :)
Monica