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Research in Other Countries => Other Countries => Topic started by: Wahbi on Sunday 11 October 15 04:42 BST (UK)
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I would like some help from somebody who can interpret the attached document. I know it to be either an adoption form or to foster a child.
I need to know the names of people involved i.e. Natural mother if father named adopted or foster parents names any dates that maybe relevant to events i.e. if there has been permission to leave the Sweden for the child if fostered.
Thank you
Mick :)
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some answers given on chat lines ;I
I think Utlamnet
and Atterlamnet
are aloaner \= loaned ie birth mum + foster parents /adopters /childrens home .
did you notice at top Josef was admitted with a payment in krone
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Thanks Brigid for your help so far you are or have confirmed what my beleifs.
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Hi Wahbi
When I posted this document to aussie-girl I was hoping for some kind of response as I did not know if this was the right man, which didn't happen. It does look like it though.
If you want more info I can dig a little deeper.
Translation:
Josef Valentin Engström born 1896 9 March, christened ? in Klara Parish.
Mother: Unmarried Jenny Amalia Engström.
1896
July 18 - Admitted to orphanage - paid fee: 250 crowns.
July 18 - Adopted to labourer Johan Petterson and wife Ingrid Helena Carlsdotter
Dec 16 - Returned to orphanage due to family not capable of looking after him (having 2 children already and a very rundown home)
Dec 17 - Adopted to wife Anna Maria Karlsson.
Dec 31 - Returned to orphanage due to Anna Maria was ill.
1897
April 17 - Adopted to stoker Karl August Grönberg and wife Sofia Albertina.
June 22 - Returned to orphanage due to Josef Valentin's illness. (he had a vitamin D deficiency called The English Sickness)
Sept 27 - Re-adopted to ?
1902
July 15 - Returned to orphanage.
Oct 6 - Re-adopted to ?
1906
Dec 15 - Adopted to ?
1907
Jan 31 - Adopted to crofter Frans Oskar Granberg
1908
Jan 16 - Returned to orphanage due to ?
Jan 21 - Adopted to home owner Petter Andersson.
I have tried to read the notes on the right but there are a lot of abbreviations making it very hard to read. What I did get was that he was unlucky with his adopted parents. I managed to get some words from it all..... he was called a cheater, well mannered, ill quite a lot, deceitful. One father was mean to him. He had a problem in school at one point.
In 1910 he was living with Karl August Grönberg again.
Ian
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Oh Ian,
Am I thankful to you. You have put many pieces of a puzzle together for me I will now explain.
John Walantin Engstrom (JWE) Arrived in Australia in 1914. Within 18months he had fallen foul of the Authorities and by 1919 was sentenced to 3 years jail.
In 1922/3 he was released and soon turned up in Melbourne on the eastern side of Australia but once again fell foul of the authorities. But this time he was known as Oscar Joseph Anderson.
In 1928 he married a Patricia Irene Hough, on the wedding certificate he stated his father as August Anderson occupation baker, mother as Albertina Gronberg.
I now see where these alias's have come from when you read down the list of adopters. It all make sense and puts a lot of the jigsaw together. I have been searching Oscar Joseph Anderson for over thirty years with little luck your thread has given me so much I thank you sincerely.
If you can dig deeper it would be much appreciated my mother was JWE's eldest daughter who like her father fell foul of the law and my elder brother and I were fostered out. Fortunately we were placed with loving foster parents who became my mum and dad,. this said I have spent 60 odd years not knowing my back ground and you have helped immensely.
I would love some more help if you can find the time.
Sincerely Yours
Mick
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Cheers Mick,
Happy to know this is your man.
Here is the family around 1900:
Grönberg, Karl August - b. 1851 - Father
Sofia Albertina - b.1857 - Mother
Alfrida Maria - b.1881
Oskar Mauritz - b.1886
Fritz August - b.1891
Engström, Josef Valentin - b.1896
Ian
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Once again Ian thank you.
Can you tell me a little about Swedish tradition with surnames. It seems that his name is different to his father is this usual.
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Hi
Here is an explanation on Swedish surnames but this doesn't really apply here.
http://www.algonet.se/~hogman/Naming%20practice_eng.htm
Looking at his birth record reveals nothing really. Jenny Amalia Engström was his mother and she was not married so J.W. Engström was an illegitimate child. He got his surname from his mother.
Ian
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Sorry I don't understand unless the below list is a list of adoptive parents Correct?
Grönberg, Karl August - b. 1851 - Father
Sofia Albertina - b.1857 - Mother
Alfrida Maria - b.1881
Oskar Mauritz - b.1886
Fritz August - b.1891
Engström, Josef Valentin - b.1896
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Sorry, I should have explained.
Yes this is his adoptive family as of 1910.
Ian
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Alright then I understand.
I think you said to aussie-girl that he was born in Klara parish in Stockholm. To find his birth records do I go to a central registrar for births and deaths or would this be found in parish records?
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Hi Wahbi
When I posted this document to aussie-girl I was hoping for some kind of response as I did not know if this was the right man, which didn't happen. It does look like it though.
If you want more info I can dig a little deeper.
Translation:
Josef Valentin Engström born 1896 9 March, christened ? in Klara Parish.
Mother: Unmarried Jenny Amalia Engström.
1896
July 18 - Admitted to orphanage - paid fee: 250 crowns.
July 18 - Adopted to labourer Johan Petterson and wife Ingrid Helena Carlsdotter
Dec 16 - Returned to orphanage due to family not capable of looking after him (having 2 children already and a very rundown home)
Dec 17 - Adopted to wife Anna Maria Karlsson.
Dec 31 - Returned to orphanage due to Anna Maria was ill.
1897
April 17 - Adopted to stoker Karl August Grönberg and wife Sofia Albertina.
June 22 - Returned to orphanage due to Josef Valentin's illness. (he had a vitamin D deficiency called The English Sickness)
Sept 27 - Re-adopted to ?
1902
July 15 - Returned to orphanage.
Oct 6 - Re-adopted to ?
1906
Dec 15 - Adopted to ?
1907
Jan 31 - Adopted to crofter Frans Oskar Granberg
1908
Jan 16 - Returned to orphanage due to ?
Jan 21 - Adopted to home owner Petter Andersson.
I have tried to read the notes on the right but there are a lot of abbreviations making it very hard to read. What I did get was that he was unlucky with his adopted parents. I managed to get some words from it all..... he was called a cheater, well mannered, ill quite a lot, deceitful. One father was mean to him. He had a problem in school at one point.
In 1910 he was living with Karl August Grönberg again.
Ian
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I have his birth record but it is only a record in the Klara Parish book. It states his birth, mother, address, christening date and the minister's name.
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Hi Wahbi
When I posted this document to aussie-girl I was hoping for some kind of response as I did not know if this was the right man, which didn't happen. It does look like it though.
If you want more info I can dig a little deeper.
Translation:
Josef Valentin Engström born 1896 9 March, christened ? in Klara Parish.
Mother: Unmarried Jenny Amalia Engström.
1896
July 18 - Admitted to orphanage - paid fee: 250 crowns.
July 18 - Adopted to labourer Johan Petterson and wife Ingrid Helena Carlsdotter
Dec 16 - Returned to orphanage due to family not capable of looking after him (having 2 children already and a very rundown home)
Dec 17 - Adopted to wife Anna Maria Karlsson.
Dec 31 - Returned to orphanage due to Anna Maria was ill.
1897
April 17 - Adopted to stoker Karl August Grönberg and wife Sofia Albertina.
June 22 - Returned to orphanage due to Josef Valentin's illness. (he had a vitamin D deficiency called The English Sickness)
Sept 27 - Re-adopted to ?
1902
July 15 - Returned to orphanage.
Oct 6 - Re-adopted to ?
1906
Dec 15 - Adopted to ?
1907
Jan 31 - Adopted to crofter Frans Oskar Granberg
1908
Jan 16 - Returned to orphanage due to ?
Jan 21 - Adopted to home owner Petter Andersson.
I have tried to read the notes on the right but there are a lot of abbreviations making it very hard to read. What I did get was that he was unlucky with his adopted parents. I managed to get some words from it all..... he was called a cheater, well mannered, ill quite a lot, deceitful. One father was mean to him. He had a problem in school at one point.
In 1910 he was living with Karl August Grönberg again.
Ian
I think I might have sent you a copy of the above inadvertently my question may be beyond your area of expertise but as a foster child my self this record seems vey thin on for information. My own records are 100 or so pages thick do you think there may be more records?
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I have his birth record but it is only a record in the Klara Parish book. It states his birth, mother, address, christening date and the minister's name.
How or what do I have to do to get a copy of this, would it be likely his mother would have been born in the same parish. If so what do I need to do to make a search?
I hope I am not bothering you with all my questions but I am excited.
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Hi
I can do all the research, no problems. I will collect all the necessary records for you. I have access to the Swedish Parish books so it should be possible to find anything you want. Just let me know what you would like to know.
Regards Ian
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Also,
If you search here:
http://digitalastadsarkivet.stockholm.se/Rotemannen2012/Search.aspx
you will be able to follow Jenny Amalia Engström a little in Stockholm. Just write in 1865 as D.O.B, Engström (as written) in surname and Jenny Amalia in first name. Just change the language if needed and click on her name in the list.
On the left side you will sometimes be able to see the original document as a PDF file.
Ian
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I would like to trace his family as far back as I can so if we find info on Jenny Amalia Engstrom like her birth dates and parents would be great..
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My own records are 100 or so pages thick do you think there may be more records?
I'll take a look to see if there are more.
Ian
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I would like to trace his family as far back as I can so if we find info on Jenny Amalia Engstrom like her birth dates and parents would be great..
I will the see what there is to find.
Ian
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Also,
If you search here:
http://digitalastadsarkivet.stockholm.se/Rotemannen2012/Search.aspx
you will be able to follow Jenny Amalia Engström a little in Stockholm. Just write in 1865 as D.O.B, Engström (as written) in surname and Jenny Amalia in first name. Just change the language if needed and click on her name in the list.
On the left side you will sometimes be able to see the original document as a PDF file.
Ian
Not having any luck just rejects my inputs
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Don't forget the o with 2 dots above it.
Ian
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Tried the o with two dots just rejects it.
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It works for me, strange. Make sure there are no spaces after or before the names.
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Here is the orphanage's database in Stockholm. There are no more pages for him unfortunately:
http://digitalastadsarkivet.stockholm.se/Allmbarnhus/Allmbarnhusepi7.aspx
Efternamn: Engström
Förnamn: Josef
Ian
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Try this:
To see Jenny Amalia's records on
http://digitalastadsarkivet.stockholm.se/Rotemannen2012/Search.aspx
write 18650131 in DOB
and Jenny in first name
You will then be able to see her as single then in the Stenqvist family as a mother.
Ian
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and this:
http://digitalastadsarkivet.stockholm.se/Rotemannen2012/Search.aspx
write 18960309 DOB
and Josef in first name
The first 2 hits is JWE. The first being with his first adoptive parents Johan Petterson. (His name is blank but his birth date is there).
The second is JWE with Jenny Amalia as new born. (Engström is miss-spelt).
Ian
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Just a couple of things about the adoption record:
Frans Oskar Granberg should read Grönberg as he was Karl August Grönberg's brother.
Petter Andersson should read Lars Petter Andersson.
Ian
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Jenny Amalia Engström's parents:
Carl Adolf Lorentsson Engström born 6 Jan 1830 in Hölö Parish
Ann Lovisa Ersdotter born 1 Sept 1824 in Mörkö Parish
Ian
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Try this:
To see Jenny Amalia's records on
http://digitalastadsarkivet.stockholm.se/Rotemannen2012/Search.aspx
write 18650131 in DOB
and Jenny in first name
You will then be able to see her as single then in the Stenqvist family as a mother.
Ian
Don't know what I am doing wrong but can't get this to work for me.
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Hmmm
All I can suggest is to close down your Browser and open the page again and then write in 18650131 and Jenny.
Ian
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Hi
Here is an explanation on Swedish surnames but this doesn't really apply here.
http://www.algonet.se/~hogman/Naming%20practice_eng.htm
Looking at his birth record reveals nothing really. Jenny Amalia Engström was his mother and she was not married so J.W. Engström was an illegitimate child. He got his surname from his mother.
Ian
Thank you I an that was an interesting red and explains some things to me.
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so glad you got help on this ...good luck in your search into the past . my mother researched her mother's adoptive parents a 60'yr old couple when nana was a baby. the man turned out to have been in a workhouse school as a child.
B
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so glad you got help on this ...good luck in your search into the past . my mother researched her mother's adoptive parents a 60'yr old couple when nana was a baby. the man turned out to have been in a workhouse school as a child.
B
Thanks Brigid I appreciate your efforts in my search, I have been at an impasse till this info and it has all be authenticated which is a plus. I have had a few wild goose chases.
Thanks
Mick
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Don't know what I am doing wrong but can't get this to work for me.
Have you got this to work yet?
Ian
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No I went into town today only to find they had a day off.
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I have tried it again today and it is working for me here in Sweden. Perhaps keeping it very simple by just writing 18650131 as DOB should do it.
What error are you getting by the way?
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just tried again and no result;
in red writing top left it said inget sokresoltat
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I actually remember it happening to me sometime ago. I have just tried with 18650131 and it worked.
I propose you write another name to kickstart it. Try Johansson in surname (efternamn). You should get many hits. If that works try again with 18650131.
Ian
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Mate I am bit slow with technology what is a dropbox?
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DropBox is a way of sharing and saving documents, photos etc online. It is perfectly safe. All you have to do is follow the instructions. You will then have access to the images through my folder.
Ian
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Hi Ian I can't find Dropbox so I can't follow the directions can you tell me how to find dropbox.
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Have you received an email from DropBox?
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No not yet
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I have just sent you another invite.
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I couldn't find a father as a baker. The father's name on his marriage certificate could have been Karl August as he lived with him the longest. Karl August's wife was Sofia Albertina Grönberg nee Löfskog which looks to be the mother on his marriage certificate.
Ian
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Yes that is how I would read it.
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I can't open the files you sent me via dropbox. Is there some special program I need to open them?
if so could you tell me what it is.
Thanks.
Mick
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They are jpg files and should open easily. I haven't though seen you join my account. Have you done everything the correct way otherwise I will have to send them some other way.
Ian
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No I just received them via email. I can't find where to go to your invitation to use drop box. Sorry but I am a complete amateur when it comes to navigating through sites like this. I don't know where or how to look for dropbox.
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The thing is that I didn't send the images to your email account. You got an email from DropBox as a link to access my folder where the images are stored.
Ian
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Hi Ian I have just found Dropbox as an ap after googling it. I can't afford to pay for the ap could you just email the images to me? thanks
Mick
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Yes no problem but the images will be compressed.
The app is free by the way. There should be a link to click on in the email and you will then be able to see the images.
Ian
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I have sent you a PM.
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feel for you ..i cant do any of the technigal stuff either
my sis created a filw called "documents that get lost "
i hate the word JUST
"just ....download this + that '"
"just ...go into ......dropbox" ..i still don't know
" just use ....app "
just ....copy
Geeks + people who've used computers for a long time don't realise it's like talking a foreign language to us + we have to learn in baby steps .
i don't mean that as an insult to jamcat or any one else who does this
+ certainly when you say you don't follow there is incredible patience taking you back a step ......or 6 ......!
b
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I get you brigid.
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Hi
I understand that it isn't easy, I just feel sorry for you that you can't get the info you want and that I just can't come over and help you out.
So don't worry I will help until you get the info.
Anyway have you got the images yet?
Also have you managed to see the info on:
http://digitalastadsarkivet.stockholm.se/Rotemannen2012/Search.aspx
Ian
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Hi
I understand that it isn't easy, I just feel sorry for you that you can't get the info you want and that I just can't come over and help you out.
So don't worry I will help until you get the info.
Anyway have you got the images yet?
Also have you managed to see the info on:
http://digitalastadsarkivet.stockholm.se/Rotemannen2012/Search.aspx
Ian
Sorry Ian, I have been able to down load the files. I asked a moderator what DropBox was he sent me a link for a free down load and then I was able to reach the files. Thanks so very much for your patience.
I have a question you may be able to answer, Jenny Amalia paid some $200 crown when she placed Joseh up for adoption. I don't know but that seems to me to be a serious amount of money for those times, is this correct?
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Good to hear you got some help. Thanks "Moderator"
I checked up the value of the Swedsh Crown of 1895 to todays value and the result was 1600 US Dollars. So yes it was a lot of money.
If you have any problems with images just let me know.
Have you managed with this site: http://digitalastadsarkivet.stockholm.se/Rotemannen2012/Search.aspx
Ian