RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Hampshire & Isle of Wight => Topic started by: yelkcub on Thursday 22 October 15 14:17 BST (UK)
-
I'm pleased to have come across a photograph of a relative I have so far failed to trace. FREDERICK (or FRED or FREDDY) HORSFALL, born 1888, after his discharge from RM Artillery lived at 38 [?] WIMBOURNE ROAD, SOUTHSEA. I think his wife's name was Constance Isabella (formerly Williams), and to the best of my limited knowledge I think the couple were childless.
I can not find the date / place of Frederick's death. I would be most grateful if someone with ready access to the Electoral Roll for Southsea could find out when Frederick and Isabella ceased to be listed at that address.
The photograph is not easy to date: Frederick was 51 on his discharge, and in the photo he looks to be in his later 50s. If anyone seeing this posting can suggest any other strategies to discover more about this person, who was my father's maternal uncle, I'd be thankful as I've come to a dead end for the moment.
-
Do you have his marriage :-\
-
Hi, Rosie99. From FreeBmd I have the marriage at Portsmouth, 1919 (the surname spelling listed as 'Horsfal')
Also in FreeBMD there is a ‘Fred T Horsfall’ death in Portsmouth, March Q, 1969, aged 87 (so born c. 1882, whereas my grandmother’s brother was born 1888, and as far as I know had no middle initial] I suppose this might be 'my' Fred, despite the two anomalies. Death certs can contain faulty information, especially if, at the time of death, the deceased had no available kin.
-
Thanks for the marriage link ;D
That death ties in with Fred Tatley Horsfall bn 1882 datewise but I am not discounting it yet. I wish he had left a will.
-
Thank you, Rosie99 – just to say that the name 'Tatley' has no meaning in the context of my Horsfall family; sounds like a mother's maiden name given as a middle name; Frederick's mother's maiden name was Hoyle.
-
I'd like to thank you, Rosie99 for taking an interest in my search for more information on my grandmother's brother. For now, I suppose, his date of death must remain a mystery. As you say, it would be unwise completely to rule out the 'Fred Tatley Horsfall' death you mentioned, though it seems unlikely - probably a matter of obtaining FTH's death cert., to see if there are any telling details.
-
I am not convinced about Fred T' s death and wouldn't be spending £9.25 yet :-\ Don't forget the 1939 registration is due out any time now.....
I see that his wife was just indexed as Isabella Williams, where does the Constance come from.
-
Fred H enlisted in the Royal Marine Artillery 5 February 1907 [# 211927]. Married in Portsmouth, 1919. On his service record his next of kin was his mother. This was later crossed through and ‘wife’ inserted: the address given was The School House, Wokingham; that too was crossed through and 207 Westfield Road, Portsmouth added. On discharge, the Wimbourne Road address was recorded. It's a while since I started my research into Fred, but I'm fairly sure I got the 'Constance' part of her name from the census. In the 1911 census Isabella is listed as a shop assistant living with her widowed mother 16 Victory Road, Portsea.
-
I had presumed that the one you found in 1911 married in 1912 :-\
December qtr 1912
Frederick S Hill
Constance I Williams - spouse Hill
Portsmouth reg dist 2b 1109
-
Yes, I'm sure you are right, and I had mistakenly identified the wrong Isabella as the future wife of my ancestor. Unfortunately, I have no home access to the census records at present, having allowed my Ancestry subscription to lapse. Now that I am finding a renewed interest in family history research, I must rejoin.
Oddly, in the same family, there are three of my grandmother's brothers who I haven't yet been able to trace. One of Fred's brothers was a (supposedly) respectable funeral director in Darlington ... I found newspaper reports of drunk and disorderly behaviour, then he disappears. Another brother was discharged from the army (wounds); before WW1 he had been a schoolmaster. Then, several press reports of drunkenness near the Whitworth, Rochdale family home , culminating in a custodial sentence. Then nothing.
-
Hi Yelkcub. I'll pop down to the library tomorrow and have a look for you. Ironically I live in the next street.
-
Thanks for replying, antiquesam – I'd really appreciate that. Hope you are having a good weekend. Still sunny here in Cornwall, but for how much longer?
-
Hi Yelkcub, Fred Is listed in the 1939/40 roll with Isabella Horsfall, Mary Moran and William Thomas Cooper (military vote)
1946-49 there is just Isabella and Mary Moran.
1951-53 a John Williams joins the household
1954-57 we have Jane I Horsfall and Mary Moran
1958-59 there is just Jane I Horsfall
1960 there is no entry for the house
1961 it is a family called Gibbons.
I hope this helps your research. Let me know how you get on.
I should have looked up my own house at the same time but only thought of it at the last minute.
-
I wonder ::)
Jane I Horsfall
Dec qtr 1958
Age at Death 84
Reg district Portsmouth
6b /503
Electoral registers are compiled in the October of the year prior to publication around February. That may account for her still showing 1959.
-
Thank you, both of you, for these replies - and for the time and trouble taken to trawl through the relevant ERs. Interesting findings - though, as we expect in family history research, even more questions are raised!
The fact that Fred is missing from the 1946-1949 registers presumably suggests that either he had died by then, or for some reason he was living away from his wife. By then he had certainly retired from the Royal Marine Artillery.
Who Mary Moran was, I have no idea - a lodger, perhaps (apparently a long-term one)? Or (wild guess) a widowed sister of Isabella?
The John Williams who appears (1951-3) is, I would imagine, a relative of Isabella, whose maiden name was Williams.
The really strange detail comes in the 1954-59 registers. Isabella Horsfall disappears, and Jane I Horsfall takes her place. Was Jane the same person as Isabella? If so, I wonder why the change of forename?
It looks as if Rosie99 is correct to assume that the Jane I Horsfall who died 1958 is the person listed in the electoral register. As to the age given in the death record - which would make her birth year 1874 (give or take) ... When I found (or thought I had found) her in the 1911 census, I omitted to record her age. Fred was born 22 October 1888 (military service record). Could he have been fourteen years younger than his wife?
I shall have to think hard where I can go next with this. But, again, sincere thanks to both of you for your invaluable help and advice. Best wishes, Ian
-
As there was no electoral register for the war years my assumption would be that he was a war victim, especially as Portsmouth took a bit of a pounding.
-
As there was no electoral register for the war years my assumption would be that he was a war victim, especially as Portsmouth took a bit of a pounding.
I could not see him in WW2 on the CWGC website which also shows civilian deaths :-\
-
I was thinking of a civilian casualty, or even Merchant Navy.
-
Civilian casualties are listed on the CWGC website.
1939 registration might help to locate him, it is due out soon :-\
-
This is a scan of the photo I found - no indication of date, just the Wimbourne Road address written on the reverse. Fred was 53-ish on his discharge from the service.
-
Just realised 1939 won't help ::)
I wonder if newspapers covered Jane's death.
-
It's been my experience so far in family history research that rarely if ever are deaths (apart from those of prominent members of the newspaper's catchment) covered in the press. Possibly the only way of finding out whether this Jane I Horsfall was, in fact, Fred's wife / widow is by ordering the death certificate. I'm wondering if there are cemetery records available for the Southsea area.
-
Death June qtr 1959
Mary Moran age 92
Portsmouth 6b 401
Probate
Mary Moran of 38 Wimborne Road, Milton, Portsmouth widow died 17 May 1959 at Queen Alexandra Hospital, Cosham - Probate to solicitors David Childs & Oliver Tyeth Parker
-
The problem is it can be a life sentence running through a year's worth of obituaries on microfiche unless you are very lucky, or can narrow the timescale a little. I can lookup up some of the cemeteries, but seem to remember being told that some records were lost.
-
The Mary Moran whose death you found would have been born 1867. FreeBMD records a Mary Williams born Portsea in that year - that's investigating the assumption that MM may have been Isabella's sister.
-
Dec Q 1918 - Mary Williams married Thomas F Moran, Portsmouth
-
This still doesn't help with Fred, and who was William Thomas Cooper (the military man)?
-
No, that's right – still no nearer finding out when Fred departed this life ... How old would you say he was in the photograph? I suppose it could have been taken before his discharge from the RMA: no detail in the picture helps us to date it, as far as I can see. As to William Thomas Cooper - my guess would be that he was simply a lodger. Portsmouth would have had quite a sizeable service population, some of whom did not live in barracks. It's even possible that Cooper was in the same outfit as Fred. Not a relative, though, I think.
-
I would have said he was in his early forties in the photograph, and I'm not convinced it was taken in Wimborne Rd. because the houses face due south and the gardens get very little sun, being mostly masked by the house. I see he was born in Whitworth Lancashire the youngest of lots of siblings, but can't find a marriage or a death. I suppose he could have died anywhere in the UK during wartime. I sorry I'm getting involved in your project.
-
Please don't worry about taking an interest in my search - as with many family history mysteries, all help is valued. Yes, Fred was born in Whitworth where his father was a small farmer; he wasn't quite the youngest, born in 1888, as my grandmother came along in 1895, and there was another boy who died in childhood. He was married to Isabella first quarter of 1919, having served through WW1, mostly at sea patrolling the northern approaches. His service record is impeccable. Towards the end of his military career he was based in Portsmouth, his discharge papers (1941) giving the Wimbourne Road address. It is possible that he died elsewhere in the UK, though I can't find a likely candidate anywhere in FreeBMD.
What you say about the orientation of the Wimbourne Road house is interesting, based on your local knowledge. Perhaps the picture was taken at a previous address (I think I agree with you, that he was in his mid-forties when the photo was taken - so perhaps towards the end of the 1930s). I had forgotten that the electoral registers were suspended during WW2 - shame, as they might have helped us be more precise about likely date of death.