RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Bedfordshire => Topic started by: Hemmum on Tuesday 24 November 15 21:23 GMT (UK)
-
I wonder if anyone can help shed any light on two christening on the IGI which have the same date but different parishes? (probably a very simple answer for you clever lot).
John Cave s of John and Mary bap 22 Sep 1776 at Marston Moretaine, Bedford. I039224
John Cave s of John and Mary bap 22 Sep 1776 at Wootton by Bedford, Bedford. P005001
Batch numbers are given for both Wootton and Wootton By Bedford. Are they the same place?
I wonder if either/both are for this (my) John Cave.
In which parish should I look for his parents?
On the 1841 census I have John Cave born between 1772-1776 living at Up End Kempston, John’s wife Fanny was born about 1779 and I believe she may have been Frances Braybrooks who John married on 11 Oct 1798 at All Saints Kempston Beds. John Cave was not with Fanny/Francis on the 1851 census and I think he was buried;
John Cave otp aged 72 born 1777 buried 11 Mar 1849 at All Saints. Kempston. Beds.
Although I think John and Francis Cave may have had at least four children in Kempston (Pheoby 1806, Joseph 1818, Elizabeth 1823) I do not have a baptism them and would particularly love to find a baptism for their son (my) Charles Cave who says he was born in Kempston about 1810. As John and Fanny married in 1798 there may have been older children.
Any info/ideas would be appreciated>
-
I've had stuff like this before... I couldn't find the christening on FindMyPast and FreeREG but the same thing on Ancestry. No image unfortunately. Sometimes they are misrecorded but I do wonder if this might be a mix-up between a parish record and a bishop transcript record for example.
You say you don't have christenings for the children:
Name Elizabeth Cave
Gender Female
Christening Date 05 Jan 1823
Christening Place ALL SAINTS,KEMPSTON,BEDFORD,ENGLAND
Father's Name John Cave
Mother's Name Frances
(from FamilySearch)
Irritatingly that seems to be all I can find!
-
Wootton and Marston are both on FreeReg (now at http://freereg2.freereg.org.uk/ ). John Cave can only be found at Wootton.
Comparing 1776 baptisms with those on FamilySearch it would seem that the entire batch I039224 is allocated to Marston, when the baptisms actually occurred at Wootton. Batches started with an "I" are user submitted transcripts and should be treated with great caution, whereas batches starting with a "P" have been extracted from the volumes published by Bedfordshire Archives.
-
Hi
All Saints Kempston Parish Register shows only baptism for Elizabeth Cave as follows
5 Jan 1823 Elizabeth Cave born 16 June 1809 parents John & Frances Cave
There are no other baptisms under name of Cave or Caves not born to these parents.
The burials states John Cave as 72yrs old burial on 11 March 1849 so if this correct birth about 1777.
Bunnygirl
-
Kempston PR has a burial entry on 22 Jan 1804.... A child of John Cave, unbaptised
-
Thank you for your help. As suggested I have checked Free Reg and, as you say, the baptism of John Cave is only found at Wootton on FreeReg. What surprises me is that of 13 Cave christenings on batch P005001, John Cave christened in 1776 is the only Cave/Caves on batch I039224.
I have spent some time gleaning various resources and my notes are as follows;
Any comments or ‘missing bits’ would be appreciated.
Apart from John christened in 1776, his parents John and Mary Cave had perhaps two other children baptised in Wootton. Beds
Eliz CAVE d of John and Mary bap 8 Oct 1769 at St Mary Wootton Beds
Eliz Cave d of John and Mary BT entry buried 5 Sep 1772 at St Mary Wootton Beds.
Wm Cave s of Jn and Mary bap 7 Feb 1773 entry from Bishops transcripts at St Mary Wootton Beds.
I have not found a marriage for John and Mary about 1769 in Wootton .
I think John Cave Snr died
Jn Cave (Lab pauper) buried 31 May 1787 at St Mary Wootton Beds
John Cave’s widow Mary then remarried.
Mary Cave a widow married William Vaux a widower on 4 Nov 1788 at St Mary Wootton Beds. witness John Purser and Charles North. FreeReg ? marriage not on IGI
Taking back the family one generation I wondered who John Cave Snr buried in 1787 at Wootton, the father of John Jnr bap 1776 Wootton/Marston, may have been?
Was John Cave Snr who was buried 1787 perhaps;
John Cave s of William and Elizabeth bap 30 Oct 1748 at Wootton by Bedford.
If John Cave Snr was baptised in 1748 in Wootton and married abt 1769 he would have been aged about 21.
If John Cave 1748-1787 Wootton was the son of William and Elizabeth when did his parents marry?
William and Elizabeth Cave had perhaps 7 children bapt between 1748-1763 in Wootton.
John Snr 1748 -1787 was their eldest child.
I have not found a marriage of William Cave and Elizabeth about 1748 in Wootton
but there is a suitable marriage in Biddenham.
William Cave married Eliz PICKERIN 22 Feb 1746 at Biddenham Bedford IGI M003761
Again with a conflicting entry on the IGI
William Cave married Elizabeth PICKERIN 22 Feb 1747 at Biddenham Bedford IGI I045869
Perhaps William Cave and Elizabeth married in Biddenham but lived and had their children christened in Wootton? There are no children for William and Elizabeth in Biddenham.
If William was from Biddenham perhaps his baptism was
William Cave bap 11 Jun 1721 s of John and Ann at Biddenham. Bedford
If William Cave bap in 1721 married Elizabeth Pickerin in 1746/47 he would have been aged 25/26.
William Cave 1721 parents John and Ann Cave had perhaps 4 children bapt in Biddenham, 1718-1728
Their first child Mary was baptised in 1718, William 1721, John 1724 and Ann in 1728.
I have not found a marriage for John and Ann Cave about 1718 in Biddenham or a burial for them.
These are my ‘Ramblings’ any idea??
-
Checking indexes is a good start, but there's no substitute for checking microfilms of the parish registers to try to resolve your many "if"s and "perhaps".
I think it a reasonable assumption that William baptised 1721 in Biddenham is the same William who married in Biddenham in 1747. I think the conflict in the marriage dates is due purely to the change from the Julian calendar to the Gregorian calendar in 1752. The M batch entry hasn't been adjusted, the I batch entry has. No conflict. Better to record the date as 22 Feb 1746/7.
Your difficulty starts when trying to prove conclusively that this Biddenham couple moved to Wootton, which after all, is less than 4 miles away across the river. Looking at the entry in the parish register to see if there's any additional detail eg "of Wootton" would be the place to start.
The marriage of Mary Cave in 1788 IS on the IGI - as a Contributed entry rather than an Indexed entry. A number of years ago the LDS tried to clean up the combined IGI as it was then, with member submissions and extracted items being in the same index, by deleting duplicated entries which were identical. In its wisdom it deleted the extracted, reliable entries, leaving the unreliable member submissions. Today with the IGI being split it appears as though some marriages are missing. So you have to check the PR if there's an identical member Contribution to see whether it's genuine or not (or in this case check the transcript on FreeReg). "I" batch numbers aren't considered to be as reliable as C and P and M batches, as it's difficult to trace the source. I'm not surprised that only one out of thirteen baptisms is included in the I batch as the parish register isn't the source, but is probably taken from a secondary source.
-
Your difficulty starts when trying to prove conclusively that this Biddenham couple moved to Wootton, which after all, is less than 4 miles away across the river. Looking at the entry in the parish register to see if there's any additional detail eg "of Wootton" would be the place to start.
Not that easy David.... the 22 Feb 1746/47 marriage of William Cave to Elizabeth Pickerin at Biddenham says that they were 'both of Stagsden'.....
No Cave baptisms at Stagsden prior to 1807; Marriages we have....
10 Oct 1783 William Cave to Jane Handscome
17 Sep 1798 James Cave to Mary Pickering
Burials; William Cave labourer on 21 May 1784 & John Caves on 10 Feb 1801
There's a baptism at Stagsden on 3 Nov 1723 of Elizabeth daughter of John & Elizabeth Pickering; she'd be 23 if it's her who married in 1746/47
-
Just an idea in response to Hemmum's ramblings! In 1747 it's unusual to find any further information in a marriage entry, but you've struck lucky, even though it muddies the water! Demonstrates though how important it is though to check the full entry rather than relying on an index.
-
....parents John and Ann Cave had perhaps 4 children bapt in Biddenham, 1718-1728
Their first child Mary was baptised in 1718, William 1721, John 1724 and Ann in 1728.
I have not found a marriage for John and Ann Cave about 1718 in Biddenham or a burial for them.
I didn't check the burials on the Biddenham parish register transcript...
The NBI has burials for Ann Cave 17 Oct 1731, Mary Cave, child 20 Sep 1722, John Caves 30 Oct 1730 & again John Caves 2 Jan 1739.
OK Mary obviously is daughter baptised 1718; hopefully Ann is be wife of John, and the Johns being the father & the son.... I will take a look next time I'm in town.
The marriage though is still a mystery...
-
Hi
Marston Parish Register for the name of Cave/Caves the earlist entry is in 1785 children of Thomas & Mary Cave. So looks like your John was from Wooton
Bunnygirl
-
I didn't check the burials on the Biddenham parish register transcript...
The NBI has burials for Ann Cave 17 Oct 1731, Mary Cave, child 20 Sep 1722, John Caves 30 Oct 1730 & again John Caves 2 Jan 1739.
Biddenham burials.....
20 Sep 1722 Mary Cave, child (baptised 27/4/1718)
30 Oct 1730 John Caves, labourer
17 Oct 1731 Ann Cave, widow
3 Jan 1738/39 John Caves, servant (assumed baptised 19/4/1724) aged 14
-
Thank you all for your help and particularly to John for all the information from Stagsden ect. I wonder if you mind if I ask your guidance/help for a couple of ideas I have ‘running around.
I was particularly drawn to look at James Cave marriage to Mary Pickering as, potentially, his mother Elizabeth was nee Pickering.
William Cave and Elizabeth Pickering married 1746/47 in Biddenham both of Stagsden
William was baptised in 1721 at Biddenham, Elizabeth Pickering baptised in 1723 at Stagsden
Both William and Elizabeth were buried in Wotton in 1786 and 1787 (where their children were christened)
William and Elizabeth Cave had three sons, two who may have married in Stagsden;
(My) John baptised 1748 in Wootton married about 1769 to Mary Unknown
William baptised 1761 in Wootton married 1783 to Jane Handscome (he was buried the next year in Stagsden).
I have not found any children, burial or remarriage for Jane.
William and Elizabeth’s youngest son James Cave was baptised 1763 in Woottton.
Did James marry in Sept 1798 Stagsden to Mary Pickering? Was she related to his mother Elizabeth nee Pickering?
I have not found any children for James and Mary but did find a Army Pension record for James Caves born 1765 in Wooton, Bedford, which could link Wootton to Stagsden.
James Caves by trade a Labourer aged 33 served 13 years 3 months. Discharged at London 19 May 1798. James Caves made his mark (X) (attested 1785 aged 19/20)
James may have served a second period of 51 days from 25 Dec 1802 to 14 Feb 1803 was 51 in Royal Garrison Battalion before being discharged as unfit for service. (According to TNA there appears to be a third record for James which is not on FindMyPast which they are investigating)
There is a burial in Stagsden in 1801 for John Caves no age given on NBI which may have been for an unbaptised son but also may have been for his brother John baptised in 1748 at Wotton which would ’muddy my puddle’. I have also found a reference to a Joseph Cave registering his home in Wooton as a baptist meeting house perhaps as early as 1826 which raises the MC problem!
If James Caves left the army in May 1798 and returned home he may have married later that year to Mary Pickering (a family member?).
Mary Pickering may have been buried as Mary CAVES Birth year 1776 Age 48 Buried 2 Sep 1824 at Stagsden
James does not seem to be buried at Stagsden but there is a Cave burial at Goldington, Beds
James CAVES born 1761 age 64 was buried 1 May 1825 at St Mary the Virgin Goldington, Beds
There are no Caves in Goldington but there were a couple of Mary Pickerings!
-
Do you know that James married in Sep 1798 or are you just flying a kite? There's no such marriage on the IGI - virtually all marriages pre 1813 in Beds are on the IGI, either extracted or member submissions.
-
No Kite flying David
The marriage was kindly given to me by John in his post on 1st December
"Not that easy David.... the 22 Feb 1746/47 marriage of William Cave to Elizabeth Pickerin at Biddenham says that they were 'both of Stagsden'.....
No Cave baptisms at Stagsden prior to 1807; Marriages we have....
10 Oct 1783 William Cave to Jane Handscome
17 Sep 1798 James Cave to Mary Pickering
Burials; William Cave labourer on 21 May 1784 & John Caves on 10 Feb 1801
There's a baptism at Stagsden on 3 Nov 1723 of Elizabeth daughter of John & Elizabeth Pickering; she'd be 23 if it's her who married in 1746/47"
-
.
-
Do you know that James married in Sep 1798 or are you just flying a kite? There's no such marriage on the IGI - virtually all marriages pre 1813 in Beds are on the IGI, either extracted or member submissions.
Butting in late, I know :o Not sure why anyone would accept "member submissions" as proof of anything. I know that I would certainly require confirmation from another source.
However, looking at Genuki, "Bedfordshire is unique in so much as all parishes have had their registers transcribed pre-1812. These are available from Bedfordshire Family History Society."
I know who I'd prefer to visit! :-X :-*
-
[ I know that I would certainly require confirmation from another source.
Absolutely which is why we are so lucky to have John who visits Bedford RO to find such valuable information.