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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wiltshire => England => Wiltshire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Waffs on Monday 08 February 16 05:58 GMT (UK)
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I have been unable to find a record of birth or baptism for Walter John Scott, born, according to other records, 02 October 1850 in Preshute or Manton, Wiltshire. I have the records for someone of that name born in 1855 in that area, but he is not my Mr. Scott. I have found both of them in different places doing different things in the 1881 census. I do not know the names of the parents. On one census it was said he was born in London, but most other records state Preshute or Marlborough. Thank you for any help you can give.
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Can I ask where you got his date of birth from?
What "other records" give his differing places of birth?
Have you found your Walter in all of the censuses? All things being equal he may/should be with parents in the 1851 and 1861 censuses ....
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Presuming the name and dob are correct, this one may fit:
Births Dec 1850
Scott Walter John
Hackney
3 189
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If Walter married, his marriage certificate should give his father's name and occupation. Do you have this?
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There is a James Scott, wife Sarah and many children including a one year old Walter living in Bethnal Green on the 1851 census which may match up with the above birth.
It is all just guesswork though unless you have something else to go on. I think you need Walter's marriage certificate ....
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Walter John Scott was a master Mariner in the Merchant Marine and those records give a birthdate. He was an apprentice in the Merchant Navy at age 16. He appears in the census in 1881 with wife Caroline, and subsequent censuses. He may have been on a ship in 1771 and not appear in a census then, though I know they say sailors are counted, but I would expect he'd be in some census in 1851 and 1861.
I have checked out other Walter John Scotts, including one in Hackney but found them in later censuses in other occupations, so rejected them as a match. He has a connection to Preshute and on a Marine paper noted his address was Mr. James Scott, Preshute, but given the occasion in the census where birthplace is noted as London, I may have to dig deeper there. I don't have his marriage certificate. Mr. James Scott could be a brother or father. I will revisit the Bethnal Green Walter to see why I rejected that as being a match.
Thank you for your very prompt replies and help.
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Is this him in the 1881 you mention?
Cottage, Winterbourne Bassett, Wiltshire
Walter J Scott 30 Master Mercantile Marine bn Marlbro'
Caroline 30 wife school mistress bn Middlesex Kilburn London
Caroline R L 3 dtr bn MArlboro
Margaret A W 7mths bn Winterbourne Bassett
and 1891
Farm , Winterbourne Bassett
Walter J Scott 40 farmer and grocer bn London
Caroline 40 wife bn London
Caroline Rose Lucy 13 bn Preshute
Margaret Amy Wilson 10
Mabel Frances 8
Winifred Mary 7
Daisy Elwine?? 6
Walter Ernest Gladstone 4
Norah Kathleen 1 all children from Margaret downwards bn Winterburne Bassett
and 1901
Brockwell, Ellesmere, Bucks
Walter Scott 50 farmer bn Preshute Wilts
Caroline 50 bn Kilburn London
Queenie 23 bn Preschute Wilts
MAggie 20 bn Winterbourne Bassett
Mabel 18 bn WB
Winifred 17 bn WB
Daisy 16 bn WB
Ewart 14 bn WB
Norah 10 bn WB
Alan 7 bn WB
I wouls say it is more likely that the "London" pob on the 1891 is the odd one and the error.
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Yes, that's him and he's in subsequent censuses very nicely. But can't find him as a child in the 1851 or 1861 censuses where I would expect to. I am going to go back and check out Bethnal Green that was suggested.
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MArriage
Jul/Aug/Sep 1876
Marlborough
ref 5a 147
Walter John Scott / Caroline Pink
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Yes, that's his marriage index record, but I am not able to learn his parents' names or his birthplace from it. Looking at the info in his merchant marine records, he refers to his birthplace as being Manton, Wiltshire, which is a name that superceded Preshute, and was a part of the Preshute census area.
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His Master MAriner Cert, dated 1877, gives his pob as 2 Oct 1850 in Marlborough Wilts.
His address at the time was 18 Victoria Gardens, Notting HIll.
His First MAtes, in 1871 gives same dob, and as you say birthplace as MAnton
His address then as 23 Regent Street, Limehouse
As he is elusive in previous censuses, I think you will need a marriage cert to see his fathers name and occupation
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Yes, the records from the Merchant Marine are great and were what gave me his birthdate, but to find him and his parents in the 1851 and 1861 censuses remains a problem, and without his parents, his birth records are also a problem. The info from the 1881, 91 and 1901 censuses hasn't led me to what I'm looking for.
Thanks for looking. I've checked out about ten Walter Scotts born around London with birthdates of about 1850, but they are found in later censuses doing other work, and this Walter John was an apprentice seaman at age 16, then mate and master, then was a farmer years later.
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As there is no birth in the indexes for a Walter John Scott in 1850 in Marlborough Reg District, nor a child with the right details in 1851/61 then maybe he started life with a different name.
Hopefully the marriage cert will bring some clues.
Caroline Pink seems just as elusive in her early years too!
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Thanks Ruskie and Lizdb, I believe you're right and I probably need to get Walter John's marriage certificate to find out who his father was. Intriquing idea Lizdb, that he might have started out with another name. Think the online search possibilities may have been exhausted by now. Interesting that a person from a farming community ended up being an apprentice seaman at 16, he must have been a keener for the sea, though it looks like he "retired" to the life of a farmer, though maybe he was still taking ships out occasionally. Again, thanks.
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From Wiltshire BMD the marriage was at "Devizes, Preshute, St George". Maybe the church record is on line somewhere.
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Thanks JRC11, I went to the Wiltshire BMD site and found the reference number for the marriage and it looks like I'll need to order it from their History Centre. Thanks for the info as you saved me steps in finding out where the marriage took place.
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You can order the marriage certificate from the GRO using the details given in Liz's reply at #8.
Yes, that's his marriage index record, but I am not able to learn his parents' names or his birthplace from it.
You should (we hope) get his father's name. This will help in tracing him further back. In this case you really don't have any other options. The certificate will also give you Caroline's father's name in order to help you with that branch.
Knowing the full details (thank you Liz) I now don't think that the Bethnal Green Walter is yours. The 1891 census giving his place of birth as London may be an error - understandable as his wife is b London, so an easy mix up. If this is the only mention of him being born in London, I would disregard it.
I agree with Liz that there may have been a name change which may account for why he can't be spotted in 1851 and 1861. There can be many scenarios to explain this such as - different first names eg John rather than Walter - a remarriage by his mother - illegitimacy - adoption ..... plus others ....
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Just having a quick look on the 1851 census for any possible Scott children born in 1850, and found a couple of Scott families in the area. They may fit into your tree somewhere.
There is a Scott family living in Manton, Preschute. Father is Thomas,29, an ag lab. Mother is Agnes, 27. There is no Walter John, but there is a 9 month old Thomas.
There is another family in Preshute headed by Thomas Scott 9, ag lab, with wife Ann, but no children of the right age to be your Walter.
There is a Daniel Scott age 49, ag lab, and family living in Manton Preshute. No children b 1850.
There is a 69 year old widr George Scott, ag lab, with son William, his wife and lots of grandchildren living in Manton Preshute. Again, no 1 year olds, though there is a five year old "John". I doubt that this is your Walter John as I can't see a reason that he would give his birth year on his seaman's records as 1850 if he was born in 1846.
There may be others I missed ....
The more I look at this eg for children called Walter b 1850 in Wiltshire, or children with surname Scott b 1850, the more I think you need that marriage certificate and hope that he gives a (correct) father's name. :-\
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Oh yes Ruskie, I've looked at all sorts of Scotts in the Preshute census, and there is even another Walter John Scott who was born in 1855, and I thought he was mine and that he'd lied about his age when he went to sea, but then I found two of them in the 1881 census. I wonder if they are related, i.e. same area, perhaps a family name.... I scrolled through the census pages of that part of the Preshute parish looking for anythng that might help, but struck out.
Yes, I think I'll need to get the marriage records for a father's name and see if that helps.
I'm ok with tracing his wife Caroline Pink's family, found them.
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Once you receive the certificate pop back and let us know his father's name (I'm really curious) ;) and we can try to find him in the 51 and 61. It does make you wonder why he seems to be missing in both, when he is likely to have been with parents ....
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Will do. Would love to have the mystery solved.