RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: Tracey Asteroid on Friday 06 May 16 07:54 BST (UK)
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I have NO German language. None.
My mother-in-law on the other hand...... Of course it was my mother-in-law!!
It looks like her mother was a first generation German/Australian. Both of her parents, and 3/4 of her grandparents were born in Gemany (well, Prussia actually) and died in Victoria, Australia.
I have naturalization certificates, wedding certificates, and death certificates, (all Australian), but what I would really like to find is information about HOW/WHEN they immigrated to Australia. They do not seem to appear in the immigration lists that I have access to.
Any suggestions please?
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Hi there,
On the Naturalisation papers, often in obscure parts of the multipage forms, it should actually state the name of the ship of arrival, and the port and date of arrival.
I am attaching the NSW State Records sample of a NSW Naturalization application. On this example it is easy to spot, but on some of the forms it is quite obscure.
http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/images/documents-1/645088.jpg/view
I think Victoria's Naturalisation certificates are lodged with the National Archives of Australia.
http://www.naa.gov.au/collection/fact-sheets/fs68.aspx
Cheers, JM
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BRILLIANT!! ;D
The Commonwealth holds the Victorian records pre 1903, and after 1903 they are commonwealth records.
Now I just have to peruse them **happy place**
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Unfortunately it looks like some of the in-laws did not register for naturalization.
I have found out how two siblings got to Australia though, so I am not disappointed.
Opps, and here is the guy I am after, it just looks like his record has not been examined yet.
http://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/NameSearch/Interface/ItemDetail.aspx?Barcode=1771992
Because that is the sort of luck I have!!
Modified to add: I have made an application to have this record examined and released. Should find out in the next 90 days.
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I would suggest you have this request moved to the Australian Board.
Your link to NAA has timed out.
What is the full name of F H SCHROEDER?
Could it be Freidrich Heinrich? Surname also known as SCHRÖDER
I have waited more than 90 days for records to be examined and digitised files placed online or photocopies of the files snail mailed.
May I suggest that you post names of your people of interest. Many of us have resources that are not available online. Vague references may deter others from assisting you.
Cando
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Thanks Cando.
Darn. I hate when links time out. Yes it is Friedrich Heinrich SCHROEDER, and the Victorian Index to Naturalization says he was naturalized in Jul 1914.
I read a blog that suggests he traveled to Australia, from Bremen, with his girlfriend Adeline Louise Dorethea RUBENKAMP sometime in 1913, and they married in Australia after they arrived.
Thanks for reading.
Note: I have asked a moderator to move this thread.
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I have also paid for this record to be made public:
Title: Lejuge, Ferdinand Louis - Naturalisation
Barcode: 1815059
Series No: A712
Control Code: 1861/R4836
Fingers crossed it has the information about his ship in it :)
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I recognised his name as he, his wife and son are buried in the same cemetery as my grandparents and parents. I remember his son well. His son's family including his wife are all living.
SCHROEDER Friedrich Heinrich 28 years Status Single Father Wilhelm SCHROEDER
RUBEKAMP Adeline Louise Dorothea 27 years Status Single Father Fritz RUBEKAMP
10 Nov 1913
At the residence of Rev F W Basedow, North Unley Ade S 257/446
Son's marriage
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article189820113
Cando
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Ah, you have amazing memory!
Thanks for sharing that. I suspected they were married in 1913 in SA, but are not sure how to verify the information.
I only have information for one son: Wilhelm Friederick SCHRODER, who died in 1971. Is this the son you remember?
Now that I know they are buried in the same cemetery, I will see if I can do a cemetery search. If I am lucky, pictures on their headstones will be online.
My connection is through my husband, his grandmother was Elsa Betty Dorothy SCHRODER (without the E apparently), Friedrich and Adeline's daughter/Wihelm's sister.
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Adeline's ashes were interred with Bill, their only son, in the Methodist section
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01hlg/
Frederick is in another grave in the Lutheran section.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01hlf/
Yes I remember Bill well. Lovely bloke.
It would be Elsa Betty Dorothy SCHROEDER [the only time I've seen the name without the E is on a few shipping records].
Cando
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Marriage - I can remember my uncle talking about Betty albeit many years ago.
SCHROEDER Betty Elsa Dorothy
NAUGHTON Paul Thorburn
1941 Reg# 14446
Cando
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Betty is NOK in this WW2 Service Summary
http://www.ww2roll.gov.au/Veteran.aspx?serviceId=R&veteranId=884563
Cando
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I suspected they were married in 1913 in SA, but are not sure how to verify the information.
SAGenealogy has SA bdm's online
http://www.genealogysa.org.au/resources/online-databases.html
Cando
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You are all over this, thank you so much Cando ;D
I will have a look at all this info and comment again. THANK YOU!
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Betty is NOK in this WW2 Service Summary
http://www.ww2roll.gov.au/Veteran.aspx?serviceId=R&veteranId=884563
Cando
I knew Paul was in the Air Force during WWII. My mother-in-law told me that he desperately wanted to fly combat but since he was one of few qualified to teach they kept him in Australia as an instructor instead.
Elsa died nine months after my mother in law was born, in 1949. The Australian Cemetery Index has "Wilhelm Heinrich" listed as her father, though no headstone photo to confirm.....wonder if I can convince my mother in law to go on a trip and take a picture of it ;)
http://austcemindex.com/m/inscription?id=3322219
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SAGenealogy has SA bdm's online
http://www.genealogysa.org.au/resources/online-databases.html
Cando
[/quote]
I ended up ordering a copy of this. Hopefully it will have parent details on it ???
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What have you ordered?
Cando
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What have you ordered?
Cando
A copy of the wedding certificate. I was not going to pay over $100 for a membership to see the details online!
I know I probably could have asked if anyone else had access, but this way I know I will get an official copy.
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I've already posted the information from my resource. The CD indexes have most of the information with the exception of trade and residence. I wouldn't waste my money purchasing certs in SA :)
SCHROEDER Friedrich Heinrich 28 years Status Single Father Wilhelm SCHROEDER
RUBEKAMP Adeline Louise Dorothea 27 years Status Single Father Fritz RUBEKAMP
10 Nov 1913
At the residence of Rev F W Basedow, North Unley Ade S 257/446
Information on a 1913 marriage certificate in South Australia
Date and Place of Marriage
Bride and Bridegrooms Names, Ages and Rank
Trade
Residence
Father's names
Church
Death
SCHROEDER Friedrich Heinrich
Father Johann Wilhelm Mother Betty Anne SIEMERING
At Murrayville 1931 46 years Reg#6471
Cando
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Blergh!
I looked at that the other day and didn't click that it was the information I was looking for. Too many thought things in my head again.
Thank you Cando.
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Perhaps you need to read a little more about researching using bdm indexes.
Birth
SCHROEDER Betty Elsa Dorothy
Father Friedrich Heinrich Mother Adeline Dorothy RUBEKAMP
At Murrayville 1920 Reg#5802
And an obvious error with her father's name on this index. Information on death certificates only as good as the knowledge of the informant.
Death
12391/1949
NAUGHTON Elsa Betty Dorothy
Father Wilhelm Heinrich No mother noted
District Taree
Possibly this information about the father was taken from NSW BDM - I interpret this as her grave is unmarked. Perhaps I am incorrect.
dau/Wilhelm Heinrich; mother; unmarked
Cando
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I think that Friedrich Heinrich SCHROEDER's mothers name was Betty Anna Siemering BAHN (in spite of being Betty Anna SIEMERING on Freidrich's death certificate).
She also died in Australia (11 JUN 1929 in Murrayville, Victoria) and her death certificate lists father as Frederick Jurgen BAHN and mother as Sophie Margarethe SIEMERING.
Though at this point, anything is possible!
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Perhaps you need to read a little more about researching using bdm indexes.
Birth
SCHROEDER Betty Elsa Dorothy
Father Friedrich Heinrich Mother Adeline Dorothy RUBEKAMP
At Murrayville 1920 Reg#5802
And an obvious error with her father's name on this index. Information on death certificates only as good as the knowledge of the informant.
Death
12391/1949
NAUGHTON Elsa Betty Dorothy
Father Wilhelm Heinrich No mother noted
District Taree
Possibly this information about the father was taken from NSW BDM - I interpret this as her grave is unmarked. Perhaps I am incorrect.
dau/Wilhelm Heinrich; mother; unmarked
Cando
Yeah, I have seen some interesting mix-ups on Death Certificates (it would not be any fun if it was always easy!)
More importantly - HOW did you get info about Elsa's death when the NSW BDM website will only let me search birth records before 1915?
Oh crikey. Obviously I need on online course, because I have just been winging it to get to here.
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More importantly - HOW did you get info about Elsa's death when the NSW BDM website will only let me search birth records before 1915?
Death?? She was not born in NSW.
No you need to ask for help...and that's what we do here on rootschat. Many of us have had years of experience researching and have many have our own resources which are not online.
Cando
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The other 'inscriptions' at the cemetery have photographs so the Unmarked obviously refers to her grave. No date of death either.
http://austcemindex.com/?cemid=396
Cando
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Oh, I feel sick :'(
I wonder if my mother in law knows that her mothers grave is unmarked. And now I wonder how hard it would be to get a grave marked (that is me thinking out loud, it does not require a response).
Damn.
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I have interpreted the information on the website that the grave is unmarked as there is no photo either. Unmarked usually means no headstone....perhaps there is a marker with her name and year of death but one would have thought there would have been a photo of that anyway.
Death of Freidrich Heinrich's brother.
SCHROEDER Heinrich Conrad
Father Wilhelm Mother Betty BAHN
At Murrayville 74 years 1962 Reg#14587
Photo of his and his wife's headstone and others
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01hln/
I wouldn't be too worried about an unmarked grave. Not everyone considers this important.
Cando
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May I support Cando's comments about unmarked graves.
Yes, many graves have no headstones or markers, but that does not mean the person is forgotten or overlooked in any way. It may be that at the time there were other pressing needs on the family funds, or perhaps a marker has been there but is no longer there, or perhaps she did not want a marker and the family have respected her request .... or many other reasons may come to your thoughts. But, there is obviously a record held by the cemetery as the details have been transcribed and if you click on his name you will see that he has spent many volunteer times taking photos, collecting details and uploading them to that particular website.
You do not need to divert your attention away and be concerned for your mother in law. Perhaps you may be able to think about if you need to actually inform her that there may not be a recognised marker. Perhaps you may have spare funds to consider funding a marker, but do remember these can be an expense that the deceased may have asked not to be incurred, so please do not make yourself ill with worry. That is not a good outcome for budding family history buffs. If you do need to inform your mother in law, perhaps you could collate other information about her mum as well, so that it is not a stand alone stark fact, and so she can come to learn about it in a gentle way.
Cheers, JM
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The Manning-Wallamba Family History Society printed a book in 1989 listing all the graves (including unmarked, in theory anyway) in Krambach. I'll see if I can get a copy via intra-library loan, and if that does not work, I might contact the MWFHS directly to see if they can look up the record for me.
It should not matter if her grave is unmarked. It just threw me, because I know my mother-in-law never got to know her.
I **think** that Henrich Conrad SCHROEDER immigrated to Vic in 1903 on the "Karlsruhe"
Their sister, Sophie Marguerite SCHROEDER had immigrated to SA in 1902 on the "Weimar"
(I have naturalization records for both which confirm this)
There is a sister Helena Anna Theia SCHROEDER born 1882 in Bruchhausen, Germany, who died Helen Ann Theia BOETTCHER in 1856 in Victoria. No clue when she immigrated.
A third sister, Adele Wilhelmine SCHROEDER was also born in Bruchhausen, Germany in 1883. She married Heinrich Ernest August RASCHE in 1914 in South Australia, so I am thinking she **may** have immigrated with Freiderich and Adeline in 1913.
I also read a rambling blog that suggests that when Freidrich and Adeline left Germany, they left behind their 4 year old daughter, Marie Dorothea Adeline SCHROEDER, in the care of Freidrich's brother Willhelm and his wife Sophie.... though I have found no evidence that Willhelm and Sophie SCHROEDER exist, and Friedrich's sister Sophie immigrated before him in 1902. The daughter, Marie Dorothea Adeline SCHROEDER was said to follow her parents to Australia around 1923.
There was a suggestion that she married in Victoria in 1929 (to Frederick Melbourne CHAPMAN), but have not found a wedding record or a death certificate for her to confirm the name of her parents.
Adeline's mother was listed as Maire WOLFF on her death record, and I think she has three brothers
Karl RUBEKAMP (1891–1917 died in France), Wilhelm RUBEKAMP 1895–?? and Johaan RUBEKAMP 1897–??. (I also suspect that ü was translated into something other than a U when she arrived in Austarlia, hence my inability to find out anything about her family). But I know she lived, so I am too worried about the rest of it right now.
If you have read my ramblings to here, thank you :)
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I also read a rambling blog that suggests that when Freidrich and Adeline left Germany hey left behind their 4 year old daughter, Marie Dorothea Adeline SCHROEDER
Would you like to share the url :)
Are you looking at public online trees?
Marie's name is Mariechen according to the Marriage index
Marriage in Victoria
SCHROEDER Mariechen Dorothea Adeline
CHAPMAN Frederick Melbourne
1929 Reg#3696
Cando
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Unassisted Immigrants arriving Victoria
http://prov.vic.gov.au/index_search?searchid=23
SCHRODER Mr Heinr 18 years arrived May 1903 on the KARLSRUHE Port F [Foreign] 365/002
Cando
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Thank you for the Marriage info!
This is the chat that suggested Mariechen was left behind by her parents:
http://boards.ancestry.de/thread.aspx?mv=flat&m=3212&p=stellen.europa.deutschland.bremen
Don't worry about the German look, if you scroll down it is in English.
I have also found "suggestions" here and there by scanning around this family tree:
http://mfo.me.uk/familygroup.php?familyID=F1414&tree=E1#cite1
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Its actually a board/forum like rootschat where people post requests...it is not a chat room.
Her marriage certificate would give the names of her parents. I would also mention here that comments/stories about people are often difficult to verify. All we can do is find the facts. Stories become distorted over the years.
Cando :)
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Its actually a board/forum like rootschat where people post requests...it is not a chat room.
Her marriage certificate would give the names of her parents. I would also mention here that comments/stories about people are often difficult to verify. All we can do is find the facts. Stories become distorted over the years.
Cando :)
I know, I am clutching at straws :D
But I will get there ;)
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Well, it certainly seems that the "story" of Friedrich and Adeline immigrating to Australia in 1913 and leaving oldest daughter Mariechen in Germany was WRONG. ;D
The National Archives has scanned in the naturalization records of Friedrich Heinrich SCHROEDER here: http://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/DetailsReports/ItemDetail.aspx?Barcode=1771992&isAv=N
And it appears that he immigrated to Australia in 1907 (the year before Mariechen was born) on the Bremen, arriving in Melbourne on 18 November. In the application (filled out in July 1914) he declares that he is living with his wife and only child, a daughter, and has been in Australia for 6 years and 7 months.
I don't know if Mariechen was born in Australia or Germany, and I do not know if Friedrich and Adeline married in Germany or in South Australia in 1913, but I DO know how he got here, and THAT MAKES ME HAPPY :)
Thanks,
Tracey
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I think you need to check the information is accurate. There would have been many applications to naturalize in c1914 and why is the first date of arrival crossed out.
http://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/NAAMedia/ShowImage.aspx?B=1771992&S=2&T=P
His name does not appear on the manifest of the BREMEN which arrived at Melbourne in Nov 1907. These are the only SCHRODER/SCHROEDER's's on the list....and I've included all the SCHRODER's that arrived Melbourne in 1907. Perhaps some confusion with other SCHRODER family who arrived in that year.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01hyn/
I do not know if Friedrich and Adeline married in Germany or in South Australia in 1913
Well who is this getting married in SA in 1913 ::) I knew their first born son and his wife is living.
SCHROEDER Friedrich Heinrich 28 years Status Single Father Wilhelm SCHROEDER
RUBEKAMP Adeline Louise Dorothea 27 years Status Single Father Fritz RUBEKAMP
10 Nov 1913
At the residence of Rev F W Basedow, North Unley Ade S 257/446
I suggest you purchase an image of this marriage certificate which will include the age and place of birth of the bride.
Marriage in Victoria
SCHROEDER Mariechen Dorothea Adeline
CHAPMAN Frederick Melbourne
1929 Reg#3696
From what appears to be a well researched online tree.
Birth 1908 Vilsen, Ostallgau, Bayern, Germany
Her cremation record at Springvale in Nov 1991, aged 83 years so born c1908
http://smct.org.au/deceasedsearch/result/567754
Cando