RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Kent => Topic started by: Carbar on Monday 27 June 16 17:15 BST (UK)
-
I am trying to identify who John Rainer's parents & siblings are.
John was born c1774/1776 in Kent. He married Jane Crust in 1800 in Ruckinge, Kent & went on to have at least 12 children in Ruckinge. He died in Ruckinge in 1848.
I have been unable to locate details of his birth or christening.
A John Rainer was baptised in Burmarsh, Kent on 13 feb 1774, son of Robert & Elizabeth, there is also a John Rainer baptised on 23 feb 1772 in Lympne, Kent, again to a Robert & Elizabeth.
I have not been able to locate a John Rainer born/ baptised in Ruckinge in 1772-6. Is the John Rainer I am looking at the same as the John baptised in 1774? Did Robert & Elizabeth have 2 sons called John with the first one dying in 1772/3?
Any help would be appreciated, Thank you
-
There is a burial at Burmarsh as follows,
1772 Nov 20 John Rainer s/o Robert & Elisabeth.
There is also a later burial of a Robert Rainer s/o Robert & Elisabeth, at Burmarsh, dated 22 Feb 1778.
Hope this helps. ???
Tony
-
Thanks for looking,
so possibly my John Rainer may be the John baptised in 1774 - the 2nd John of Robert & Elizabeth?? Now I need to find the evidence its the same one..... or find another one.
Thank you again
Best wishes
Carole
-
Carole
The witnesses at the Ruckinge marriage, of 15 Feb 1800, were Thos Godden and John Francis (Parish Clerk or similar) John Rainer signed the Register.
The Burial took place, at Ruckinge, on 4 May 1848 and John Rayner was said to be 74 years old.
Tony
-
I also have John and Jane in my tree and am stuck trying to find his background.
Nanny Jan
-
well nanny jan, thanks to help from Tony, we have some interesting progress with John Rainer & Jane Crust ancestry.
John was baptised at Burmarsh, Kent on 13 feb 1774, his parents were Robert Rainer /Rayner & Elizabeth Griggs, His parents married on 7 June 1762 in Brabourne, Kent. John was born when his father was 36yrs old. I Haven't located his mothers death yet but Robert remarried aged 60yrs to Janes sister Ann Crust!! This marriage was on 5 Jan 1797 in Sellinge, Kent. Ann Crust was baptised 23 July 1775, 3 days after the wedding of her parents William & Mary Jane Richards. Ann was 22yrs old when she married Robert Rainer....an unusual family set up!!
-
Useful information; thank you. My line from John is from his son William and then his son Edward.
Nanny Jan
-
My line is through John's son Thomas & then Thomas's daughter Emily.
In my tree, I have John's son William married to Elizabeth Cramp, their son Edward married to Charlotte Henman, with Edward & Charlotte having 12 children
Best wishes
Carole
-
I have the same for William and Edward. :)
My gt.grandmother was Edward and Charlotte's second child. Twelve children.....one of the biggest families in my tree.....phew!
Nanny Jan
-
I came to much the same conclusion as the OP (my line descends from his son William, then Edward).
Jane Crust's sister, Ann(e) Crust, marries a Robert Rainer on 5th Jan 1797 at Sellinge and their children are subsequently born at Ruckinge. I think Robert and John Rainer might well be brothers. There is a Robert Rainer baptised at Lympne on 17th October 1768, son of Robert and Elisabeth, but then a death of Robert Rainer, son of Elisabeth and Robert in 1778. It may be, though, that a subsequent son is named Robert post 1778, just like brother John.
All very confusing. A later Robert Rainer marries an Anne Collings and they have children at Ruckinge as "son/daughter of Robert and Anne" that overlap with the earlier Robert and Anne.
Btw, John Rayner/Rainer signs his name as Rainer on his wedding record. Jane uses a cross.
The only lead I have on John's parents is that Elisabeth may be Elisabeth Griggs, who marries a Robert Rainer, with Robert's parish recorded as Sellinge.
-
I am not sure your thought about the relationship between Robert Rainer and John is correct!
When Robert married Ann Crust in 1797 he was stated to be a Widower. This couple had a child, Robert baptised on 23 April 1797 at Sellinge.
I think it is possible that Robert was John Rainer's father! This, of course, means that the Crust sister's had an interesting double relationship! I am not sure how this can be proved and, as you say, there is the problem of the two Robert and Ann Rainer's having children baptised at Ruckinge. Plus, based on the marriage of Robert Rainer to Ann in 1818, it seems likely that the baptism of Elizabeth Rainer in 1811 was the last of the senior couple. Then he would have been about 74! This based on the burial of a Robert Rainer, at Ruckinge, on 27 February 1827 aged 90.
Not sure if any of this makes sense but, I thought I should put it out there.
Regards,
Tony ???
-
That makes a lot of sense. If Robert was John's father, then that would explain why I can't find a second brother of John's named Robert after the first brother's death. It means there should be a death record somewhere (I hope) for Robert's first wife Elisabeth for 1797 or earlier. This means a lot of shuffling around in my tree if so!
I can't reliably go back further in my tree than John having parents of Robert and Elisabeth. There are some rough date fits that I've put in for the time being but they need more research to verify.
The Kentish Gazette of 12 July 1808 has a sale of land at Ruckinge for which a John Rainer is the tenant.
[edit] An Elisabeth Rayner is buried in Stanford (next to Sellinge) in 1794. Too common a name to jump to any conclusions, though.
-
I have also found another son of Robert & Ann (? if this is the Robert Rainer & Ann Crust)
Edward, son of Robert Rayner & Anne was born in 1802 in Sellinge, Kent, baptised 14th Feb 1802 in Ruckinge, he married Ann Durant in Ruckinge, 4th Nov 1924 aged 22yrs, Ann was 23yrs. Edward & Ann had at least 7 children. Edward died in 1848 in Ruckinge aged 46yrs.
Robert would have been 60 yrs old at Edwards birth, Ann would have been 26yrs
-
There's a probable brother of John Rainer, William, who is baptised on 10 July 1763 at Lympne. There are two records of this date and another that has the same 10 July date but a later year, which is probably a transcription error rather than an infant death and later birth.
John, however, does appear to have been a second John. The first is baptised in 1772 at Lympne and a death recorded the same year at Burmarsh. The second John is baptised at Burmarsh in 1774.
Back to William. In the 1851 census, William Rainer, age 87, born Lime, Kent, turns up at Windsor. Lympne is pronounced Limm today but it looks as if this is evidence that it may have been different then, assuming there is no village called Lime in Kent. William appears to have raised a family in Berkshire from the 1790s onwards - there are four children, William, Henry, George and Richard (Richard dies at 2 yrs). In 1851, one of his grandchildren by son William is living a few doors away as a greengrocer. William senior is a "superannuated grocer". William senior is also in the 1841 census albeit transcribed as age 15 instead of 75.
William's sons are all sons of "William Rainer/Reaner/Rayner and Catharine". Fortunately, the names appear to be a unique combination in the area although I can't be 100% sure. However, the census returns show some street ties between William and George, while Henry is a twin of George. I can find wife Catharine's death but the marriage is trickier - the only match of name and likely date is one at Bath but the parents are not listed.
Other possible siblings of John:
Priscilla - baptised 1765 at Lympne (appears to die a year after marrying a Robert Cooper)
Robert - baptised 1768 at Lympne, buried 1778 at Burmarsh (baptism and burial have 'son of Robert and Elisabeth'
Thomas - baptised same date as John. Twin? Can't track him down at all.
-
Just to add to my last post concerning the William Rainer at Windsor in the 1851 census possibly being the sibling of John Rainer at Ruckinge.
The Canterbury Journal, Kentish Times and Farmers' Gazette 02 October 1858 has a report of William Rainer's death at Windsor on 17 September at age 95 in which William is described as 'late of Ruckinge'.
-
I have a William Rainer son of Robert & Elizabeth in my tree, baptised 10th June 1763 in Lympne. But I have no further info on him re marriage & death
-
That is him - I'm fairly confident he was a brother of John Rainer. He had at least four children in Berkshire/Oxfordshire - William, twins George and Henry and Richard (who died age 2). Their baptisms have Catharine as their mother.
George, Henry and William had largish families although I can't confirm who Henry's wife was for sure. Henry appears to have been killed in a railway engine accident at Twyford Station in 1840.
There must be quite a few Rainers today in that area who are descendants.
William senior is in the 1841 census at Windsor, albeit his age has been wrongly transcribed as 15. In the 1851 census he is living in Windsor a few doors away from one of his grandsons.
-
Thanks - another branch to look in to
-
It will turn out to be a very big branch by the 1900s. Plus in William's line is a grandson Frederick Rainer who was a key person behind the formation of a forerunner to the Probation service. The Probation Service archive is the Rainer Archive and there was a Rainer Institute that is now part of a social organisation called Catch-22.
Frederick was strongly against drink. I've found he had a cousin, a greengrocer (possibly William's old business), who lived near him at Windsor and who clearly had an issue with alcohol throughout his life. I wonder if this influenced his views.