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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Northamptonshire => England => Northamptonshire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: RogerP on Tuesday 12 July 16 04:59 BST (UK)
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Hello
I am researching my Smith ancestors from Kettering. There is some confusion about the parents of five brothers because the name Smith is common, and they may have been non conformists, although the youngest brother Charles was baptised at St Peter and Paul.
There were five brothers: Nathaniel b July 1813, Henry b 1815, William (my line) b Jan 1819, Robert b 1821, Charles 1822. They were engineers, and they are mentioned in the webpages below.
Charles Richard Thomas Smith was baptised 6 Feb 1822, his father was Nathaniel, a cooper. His mother Mary died in Jan 1822 (possibly in child birth) according to Kettering St Peter and Paul parish records, so Charles was probably born Jan 1822. Charles was at his brother Nathaniel's funeral on 2 April 1897 according to the obituary.
Other older sources say the father was William and the mother Was Elizabeth but I think this may have been the wrong family.
Can someone please tell me if they have access to the non conformist records or parish records for Kettering for this period? I really need a record of the birth of William Smith about 3 Jan 1819 or earlier. Is it possible for someone to lookup please?
http://www.thrapstonheritage.org.uk/content/topics/businesses/smith-grace-feature-pages-businesses/smith-family
http://www.oldengine.org/members/blkstone/history1.htm
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Familysearch has the following non conformist baptisms at Kettering:
William Smith born 22 Nov 1821, baptised 3 Feb 1822
Father: William
Mother: Martha
William Smith bap 31 Mar 1822
Father: Roger
Mother: Mary
William Smith bap 30 Nov 1823
Father: William
Mother: Elizabeth
Plus a couple of others a little later (non-conformists often baptising later).
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Actually looking a bit further, I don't think William and Martha are your William's parents as it appears they also have Ann (1816), Susanna (1818), Robert (1825) and Henry (1827).
And Roger and Mary also have other children: Elizabeth, Ann, Mary, Jane and George, so probably not them either.
Harder to tell with William and Elizabeth as there are quite a few baptisms in this period, so could be more than 1 family.
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Sorry, William bap 30 Nov was born 20 Oct 1823, and his father was a labourer, so again, not yours.
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Have you got your William's marriage certificate?
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Thanks. I will get the certificate. He married Mary Ann Keystone at Star Lane Chapel, Stamford (vol14 p1039) near Kettering Oct 17, 1840. I hope the marriage certificate has the fathers' names.
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No luck with the 1840 marriage certificate. His father's name is blank!! William was a whitesmith. But I found in old newspapers that William Smith was back in Kettering making and selling winnowing machines and corn-dressing machines in 1847 - invented by the late Nathaniel Smith of Kettering. So Nathaniel probably was his father. He must have died between 1822 and 1847, but again there is no record that I can find. Strange. Nathaniel Smith jnr (William's brother) was born 27 Jul 1813 according to his memorial, but again there is no church record. They were non conformists so perhaps they were baptised later.
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Hi RogerP
I'm not sure if this helps or not, but there is an Anglican baptism 2 July 1827 Kettering of a Henry Smith aged 12 years son of Nathaniel and Mary. father a traveller :(
Just thought I would add it, I did check both BT's and PR's regarding age and father's occupation
claire
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Thanks. I saw that, and the age matches Henry who went to Stamford and set up an iron works. Nathaniel may have traveled on business because he was selling his agricultural machines far and wide according to newspaper ads in 1820. On the other hand there is another Nathaniel who was a vagrant in the area. When Mary died in late Jan 1822, the newspaper "Northampton Mercury 16 Feb 1822" said she was 37 and had 14 children!! The church death says she was 39. This matches the Nathaniel Smith and Mary Walker from Newport Pagnell, 25 miles away. The Smith family there were also coopers and victuallers. I wonder if there are any other church records, minutes etc. Also I would love to find a will.
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There is a PCC Will of a Nathaniel Smith of NP dated 1811 is this the father of your Nathaniel. It's very lengthy. It may provide some clues.
Will have a look too see what I can find though.
Claire
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Many Thanks Claire. I believe there are clues that it is his father. I read the will (6/7/1811) quickly last week but I couldn't read all the words. I would love to get a copy. I think I read that the sons were Samuel, Nathaniel, Thomas, Charles. Daughters were Sarah m Will Crisp, Mary m Richd Wm Hillyer, Ann m Thom Miller I think. Samuel may have been the 1785-1866 one at NP. A complication is that a Nathaniel Smith committed suicide at NP that year in 1811 according to newspapers inquests (April 1811), so I don't know how that matches the signing of the will.
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There seems to be another son of Nathaniel, Samuel born about 1805 in Husbands Bosworth, Leicestershire. He married for the second time in Northampton All Saints to Charlotte Goodman a widow, formerly Woodland in 1849.
Samuel is an agricultural implement maker and his father Nathaniel is a machine maker.
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Thanks. That ties in with agricultural machine makers and family names Samuel, Nathaniel, Thomas, Charles, Sarah, Mary, Ann.
The will was signed in May 1808. Nathaniel Smith then died in 1811, he had a lot of assets.
Did Baptists etc back then not always baptise infants? Some of the Baptists in Kettering did have infant baptisms. I wonder if non-conformist minute books are available.
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Hi Roger
I was involved in a post last week where the question of baptizing infants in a NC church came up in Northampton.
This is quite an interesting site
http://www.edintone.com/chapels_ministers/oundle-baptists/
claire
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Thankyou, Claire, for the very interesting article!
Some of the Baptist Churches do have Church Books available, but I can't see Fuller Baptist in the online catalogue yet. The online catalogue is not, however, anything like complete! You'd have to ask the NRO whether they have the Church Books for Fuller Baptist Church.
The Independent Church seems to have some copies of their early books deposited, but very patchy
(UR/KTURC/11-12), and the blurb says the originals are with Fuller Baptist.
Baptists mostly dedicate infants, rather than baptise them, somewhere in their first year of life, preferring that they wait until they can make the decision to be baptised for themselves. The Baptist registers of births are indexed on Ancestry and the IGI up to 1837, along with the other non-conformist churches. It is well worth looking at the originals on Ancestry if you can, as a few of them will even tell you who was present at the birth, or who the wife's parents were.
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Very helpful, thanks. My grandmother (Panther/Smith) from Kettering was a Baptist! The agricultural engineering Smiths probably were Baptists then, except for one thing – their father owned a pub!!. However, Nathaniel Smith junior (1819-97) said he went to the Independent Chapel Sunday School according to a 1867 news-paper cutting, and he and William (1819-95) were strongly involved in the temperance movement from the 1850s. The only concrete record of the Smith parents (Nathaniel senior (1774?-) and Mary) is from the birth of their youngest - Charles Richard Thomas Smith - who was christened at St Peter and St Paul Kettering in Feb 1822. Since Mary (1783-1822) died in Jan 1822 (possibly a complication from childbirth) I am guessing the family wanted her buried in the cemetery at St Peter and St Paul, or there was some problem with the non-conformists. The parish record said she was 39, and Nathaniel, a cooper, was her husband. A newspaper cutting from 1822 said she died age 37 leaving 14 children!! Since Nathaniel senior was a cooper and had a 1818 patent for a winnowing machine, there are clues about the 14 children, but it is all a bit shadowy. There was an Emma Smith baptised 1829 and born 1811 with parents Nathaniel and Mary, so possibly this is a Baptist baptism. 10 possible children are Mary Ann (1802-), John (1805-), Samuel (1805-), Elizabeth (1807-), Emma (1811-), Nathaniel (1813-97), Henry (1815-59), William (1819-95), Robert (1821-76), Charles (1822-1902), with births in Newport Pagnell (1802-05), Leicester 1805, and Kettering (1808-22). According to a newspaper cutting, Nathaniel senior arrived in Kettering by 1808 when he set up as a cooper at the House of the Woolpack which he renamed the Sararcen’s Head Inn. Could Baptists have owned an inn in 1808?? I have never found such shadowy ancestors!
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Well Roger if you believe what is written on some internet sites you would think that Baptists were fiercely anti alcohol, but did you know that a well-known Baptist minister was the inventor of bourbon whiskey — which casts some doubt that they didn't like a drop or two :)
Have you looked for Apprentice records for any of them ? May give some clues.
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When he took over coopering in Kettering from a Robert Howcutt, Nathaniel Smith was advertising in the Northampton Mercury, Feb/Mar 1808 and 24 Dec 1808, for an apprentice cooper, and a journeyman cooper, but I haven't been able to find them. Nor any of his sons being apprentices 1820-1840. They were coopers and whitesmiths.
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Few apprentice documents survive after 1800. I believe it has something to do with the abolition of the tax on apprenticeships around that time.
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Nathaniel Smith (1774?-1835?) a victualler and cooper, may have been an apprentice cooper in Newport Pagnell when he was younger (1790s), but I haven't found his apprenticeship record. His father Nathaniel (17xx-1811) was a victualler and cooper too in Newport Pagnell - if I have got the family links correct.
I think I need the Kettering Baptist records too for 1808 to 1835 to see if Nathaniel Smith and family were mentioned there. I think it was Fuller Baptist Church. "Andrew Fuller died in 1815. Fuller was succeeded by his assistant, John Keen Hall, who died in 1829 at the age of 43. After Fuller’s time, the Fuller Baptist Church grew even stronger. Its members have included many
of those who played a leading part in the business and civic life of the town". Are the records/minute books with the Baptist Union please?
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Hi Roger, the Church Books etc will be either with Fuller Baptist, or at the NRO. Baptist churches are self-governing, so responsible for their own records. They may have deposited them at the NRO, some churches have and some have not. You could email the NRO and ask them?
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Hi
The Fuller Baptist records: registers, minutes, accounts and corresp. ( c1662-1926) are held privately,
As PrawnCocktail points out emailing the NRO and enquiring is the way forward here.
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/c/F138554
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RogerP
I have a few burials from Fuller but need to put on the Northampton
Board as we can't add attachments here.
Sandy