RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Yorkshire (West Riding) => Topic started by: jmsp1kers on Wednesday 05 October 16 18:15 BST (UK)
-
Hi, I'm hoping somebody could help throw some light on the following for me.
My entire family tree seems to hinge on one woman, called Frances/Fanny Mallinson, born around 1807.
Here's what I know:
Frances Mallinson of Barnsley had three illegitimate sons, John Frederick, Benjamin and Richard (the baptism records make no mention of the father(s)) who carried on her Mallinson name. She married Francis Greaves in 1837 (annoyingly just a few months before civil registration was introduced). I'm able to trace her and her children through the census records no problem.
The issue I have is where she came from. There are no Barnsley records I can find to identify her parents, where she was born, etc.
Back when I first started researching my family tree, I accepted a lot of what Ancestry threw at me and drew a connection between this Frances from Barnsley and a Fanny Mallinson from Huddersfield. However, I'm now a lot more skeptical about this and have two halves of a family tree that may or may not be connected.
Here's what I've researched. Based on the various ages on the records (census, burial, death cert, etc.) of Frances, it puts her birth year at between 1805 and 1811, with most records putting her at 1807/08. Fanny's birth was 1807 according to her baptism record.
I've also tried to see if there were any other girls called Frances/Fanny that were born during that period in the Yorkshire area. I only found two others and they both had a traceable history that was unrelated.
Where the real doubt comes in, is the fact Frances never states being born in Huddersfield on any of the records. It's always Barnsley.
So now I enter speculation territory here.
Fanny's parents, John Mallinson and Mary Wilson, seemed to move around a lot, judging by the different places their children were born in. Combined with the fact he worked in textiles, I'm thinking they were very poor. The father died when Fanny was 18. It's possible she went to Barnsley to find work, and that the three illegitimate kids suggests that work wasn't always respectable. Because of this and a variety of other reasons she might have lied about where she originally came from.
Or maybe they really are two different people.
I'd like to try and find some more evidence to confirm or deny this, but I've hit a brick wall. I've researched the obvious sources and am now stumped as to where else to look (if there is indeed anywhere else to look). Any suggestions/thoughts? Or does anyone have knowledge of the cultural/historical situation of that time period and might be able to provide a better explanation of what happened to Frances?
Thanks in advance for any help!
-
When you refer to "Fannys baptism in 1807", am I right in taking that to be the Huddersfield one, the one that you are now not sure is correct? And there hasn't been a baptism found for a Barnsley one?
And Welcome to Rootschat! Sorry, should have said that first, but only just noticed it was your first post.
Also - who are the witnesses at her marriage (what a shame she married to early to have her fathers name on a cert!)
-
Thanks!
Yes, Fanny's 1807 baptism is the Huddersfield one. She was baptized as "Fanny". There isn't any Barnsley baptism that I can find.
Barnsley's Frances goes by the name "Frances" on all her records (including her sons' baptism PRs), apart from curiously her sons' marriage PRs, where she's referred to as "Fanny".
The witnesses are a Bernard Hyde and Mary Atack
-
Curious about the son's marrage pr's, in that I've never seen them with a mother's name on.
-
Still thinking about this one!
btw - records seem to be generally Mallison, rather then Mallinson? Not that an 'n' here or there means much in that era, especially as I see Frances was illiterate.
I guess it is possible that she used the name Mallison if a Mr Mallison was the father of the children - but if that was the case then one would expect the father to be on the christening record as if they were married.
According to records on Familysearch there are Mallison families having children in Barnsley around 1807ish, so would be worth trying to look at the originals to see if a Frances has been missed out or transcribed as something else in error.
-
Thanks for the help :)
Working through the original records, can't find anything yet but will keep looking.
What you said about her sons' marriage PRs made me realise something. She was married herself by this point so was technically going by the name of Frances Greaves. Yet for some reason her sons have her down as Fanny Mallinson, occupation spinster.
-
Did the sons marry somewhere other than England/Wales?
Otherwise - have they out mother's name on marriage cert where father's should be? No space for mothers name on English marriage cert!
-
In a marriage record one does sometimes (rarely) see a mother's details in the columns intended for father's details, in cases of illegitimacy.
In this case the parish record for the marriage of Benjamin "Mallison" and Ellen Hardcastle in Silkstone on 9 July 1853 does indeed show Fanny "Mallison", spinster, where the father's details would normally be entered.
-
Mallison & Mallinson are definitely interchangable - I have a lot of them in my tree but from the Todmorden area
-
Thanks for the replies.
It's a long shot, but before I go and order a copy is there any possibility the marriage certificate could have differing information to the parish record? Or are they filled in at the same time/by the same person? I ask because I've read in such cases where the father is unknown, that occasionally the grandfather's name was used instead. Just a thought.
-
If you have access to the full, undamaged parish record there is no point in ordering the marriage certificate.
A Church of England parish record is the original document. The information on it was then sent to the civil authorities, and what you get when you order a certificate is a copy of that (sometimes a photocopy, sometimes a transcription).
So a certificate cannot give you better information than the parish record. In some cases it can give you worse (inaccurate) information, if errors have been made in the reporting or copying process.
-
I'm sure you will have seen it, but there is a baptism in Barnsley 1810 of Francis, son of Ann. I have failed to find any further record of this child and so wonder if the baptism has been incorrectly recorded and is in fact your Frances?
An Ann Mallinson married Joseph Gee in Barnsley Silkstone on 22 Aug 1814 and they went on to have several children, all in Barnsley.
I haven't followed any of these children, or the children of Frances, but it may be worth seeing if their paths cross at any point - witnesses at each others marriages, common naming patterns etc.
It may come to nothing, but worth a try?
-
I'm sure you will have seen it, but there is a baptism in Barnsley 1810 of Francis, son of Ann. I have failed to find any further record of this child and so wonder if the baptism has been incorrectly recorded and is in fact your Frances?
Yeah, I'd seen that one but originally dismissed it as it said "son". Would they incorrectly record both the name and the sex? I dug into it some more though, and like you I can't find anything else about him. Could be nothing, but there is another "Francis, son of" on the same page of the record.
I dug into Ann Mallinson/Gee and briefly got my hopes up when I found her family on the 1841 census, and discovered that they were living with other "Mallisons", including a Frances. Alas, the Frances was only 5, and the other relatives were Ann's sister and mother.
Went back to try and narrow down any people called Frances/Fanny born around 1807 (+/- 5 years). Evidently not a popular Mallinson/Mallison name, even when I looked outside of Yorkshire. All I've got is the one from Huddersfield, one from Holmfirth/Kirkburton whose subsequent marriage I've traced, and a non-conformist from Halifax who I can't find anything else about.
-
I dug into Ann Mallinson/Gee and briefly got my hopes up when I found her family on the 1841 census, and discovered that they were living with other "Mallisons", including a Frances. Alas, the Frances was only 5, and the other relatives were Ann's sister and mother.
Can you see this Frances recorded anywhere else? I haven't been able to but curiously in 1851 there is a Francis Gee aged 12 living in Barnsley with Thomas & Mary Gee. He is stated to be Thomas's nephew and a miner, b Barnsley. Joseph Gee aged 32 (son of Ann Mallison & Joseph Gee) is on the previous page.
Added: They are all very close together in 1851: H0107, Piece 2332, Folio 560
Page 19 - Thomas & Mary Gee with nephew Francis (Lindley Yard)
Page 18 - Joseph & Hannah Gee & children (Lindley Yard)
Page 14 - Francis & Frances Greaves & family, including. Richard & Benjamin Mallison (Greenwood Square)
-
Don't know why I didn't spot this before, per the 1841 census:
8 Feb 1835 Barnsley, St Mary, Fanny Mallison d/o Elizth Mallison, Spinster.
8 Aug 1827 Barnsley, St Mary, Ellen Mallisson d/o Elizabeth Mallisson, Spinster
So how, if at all, does the Ann Mallison mother of the Francis/Frances born c1810 connect with William & Sarah Mallison, parents of Elizabeth born c1805?
Could it be as simple as Frances being William & Sarah's daughter but the baptism is missing, or could Ann Mallinson bap 10 Dec 1784, d/o William & Sarah be the mother of Francis/Frances?
I'm trying & failing to concentrate on this and the TV at the same time, so I'll hand it back over to you.
-
I've spent a bit of time putting together a Gee/Mallison tree to try and figure out a few things and had sort of come to a similar thought as yourself.
Ann and Elizabeth were sisters, I've managed to confirm that. I suppose it is possible that their parents William and Sarah could have had another daughter after Elizabeth (who appears to be their youngest child). They would have been in their early 40s by that point. Plus, it would put her birth at around 1807, similar to my Frances Mallinson/Greaves. But then, no baptism...
On an off chance I checked the other "Francis, son of" on the same parish record as Ann's Francis to see if there was a misunderstanding by the person who wrote it down. That child was definitely male, though whether that makes Ann's "Francis" more or less likely to be an incorrect transcription I'm not sure. Misspelling the name seems an easy mistake, but getting the sex wrong too?
Regardless, at least this is looking more promising than my random Huddersfield/Barnsley link :)
-
Hi, just thought I'd share an update.
As the closest link seems to be a baptism record of "Francis, son of Ann Mallison" from 1810, I've been searching for something that could prove it was really a girl.
What I've needed was some sort of association between Frances Mallinson/Greaves and her family (the one I'm descended from), and the family of Ann Mallison (later Ann Gee), whether that be living close to each other, being witnesses, etc.
And... I might have found one thing.
In the 1851 census Francis Mallinson/Greaves was living about 10 minutes away (as best as I can tell, most of these streets have long been demolished) from several of her half-siblings; Elizabeth, William and George Gee.
That in itself wouldn't be significant, they're hardly on each others doorstep. But what I do find interesting is who the Gee's were living next door to. An Ellen Hardcastle, who two years later marries one of Frances' sons, Benjamin Mallinson.
Coincidence? Or could there be something to this?