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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: rusted on Monday 17 October 16 00:45 BST (UK)
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I have two sources that say he was born in Melbourne on 12 Mar 1916
Death cert says parents unknown. Birth date 12 Mar 1916.
WW2 Military records give same date and place, next of kin Ethel Williams.
He married Alma Alice Scott in about 1949
Died in 1977 in Ballarat
Ethel Williams was Alma's brother's (Stanlet Albert Scott) wifes (Gwendoline Clayton Williams) sister.
What I am trying to track down is what the relationship really is with Ethel, so I figured his birth would be a good place to start. I can't find anything in Digger or BDM Vic.
All these people are dead.
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The only AGNEW birth in Victoria in 1916 was for one of my relatives in Bairnsdale on 30 Oct 1916. There is no birth reg for Lawrence Gordon.
This item indicates a birth c1916 also.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article205201907
Cheers
Cando
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Was Alma Alice SCOTT married previously? Her death reg indicates she was born c1911.
SCOTT Alma Alice
HEALEY/HEALY Sydney Wainwright
1937 Reg#14941
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article206862325
The Age 10 Feb 1945
Divorce Decress
Alma Alice Healey, 33, Grange-road, Glenhuntly, from Sydney Wainwrlght Healey, 29, of the A.I.F.; desertion.
Australian Electoral Roll
1949
HEALEY Alma Alice 7 Craddock Avenue, Caulfied Tobacco worker - notation "as Agnew from 26.6.1949"
You could request a search and if found purchase his marriage certificate. Details of his parents should be detailed. In Victoria Marriage Certificates more than 60 years old where both bride and groom are deceased may be purchased by the public.
No really helping with birth info for your Lawrence though. I wonder if he was born with a different name.
Cando
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When I was looking through the electoral rolls before, I think Lawrence was at the same address on the 1949!
bitzar.
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Yes Alma was previously married to Sydney Healey, he came back from the war and never went back to her and their son.
The Electoral Roll is where I got the approximate date for Alma and Lawrences marriage, I can't find anything for that either.
I wonder if Lawrence Agnew may have been born in NSW as he was near Robinvale when he enlisted and that Shepparton thing is interesting, so early years in Northern Victoria.
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When I was looking through the electoral rolls before, I think Lawrence was at the same address on the 1949!
bitzar.
That's possible as the OP said they married c1949 and the notation said "as Agnew from 26.6.1949" The election was held 10 Dec 1949.
Cando
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Possibly the marriage cert is the way forward.
Cando
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I can't find the marriage of Alma Scott or Healy to Lawrence Agnew at BDM.
The only one I can see is Alma and Syd Healy which is not really what I am after.
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No you won't find one. In the public arena Victorian marriages are only indexed to 1942.
In Victoria anyone can apply for a marriage certificate 60 years after the event as long as both parties are deceased.
You know the names of the parties and approximately when they may have married.
Cando
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A number of chatters have a resource for births to 1918 in NSW. Perhaps you could make a new topic and ask for a search. Link this thread though.
Cando
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Thanks for that information about the marriage Cando, I didn't know that.
Do you know if you can get a historic $24 copy or do you have to get the full blown official cert?
I will leave this sit here for a bit and if nothing comes up I will try a NSW topic for his birth.
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You can search NSW BDM until 100 years ago http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/
I can't see it there up till oct 16/1916. :(
Ros
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Looking at births on March 12, 1916 in NSW
There is a Lawrence Mc* with only a mother named in Forbes. Perhaps he could have been adopted?
Ros
adding : and there are a couple of Lawrence G births on that date
and a Laurence with only a mother named in Forbes
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Thanks Ros
That Forbes one is how he spells his name on his enlistment. So something like that could be close.
I don't think he had any relatives, So adoption is a real possibility.
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Application form
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01iou/ (http://www.rootschat.com/links/01iou/)
Cando
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Looking at births on March 12, 1916 in NSW
There is a Lawrence Mc* with only a mother named in Forbes. Perhaps he could have been adopted?
Ros
adding : and there are a couple of Lawrence G births on that date
and a Laurence with only a mother named in Forbes
May I please add that these* are all the ONE registration, and there's three entries in the index. You can see these are all the same registration by looking at the registration number. Once you have the registration number and the year you can test for all the indexed details by using the option at the online index " Yes" as you know the registration number.
ADD * by way of explanation (see a number of posts later in the thread and the suggestion that I am sidetracking the thread)
May I assure you all that for NSW BDM civil registrations to have the same registration number and same year number they must be registered in the same registration district. So "these are all the ONE registration, and there's three entries in the index. You can see these are all the same registration ......" refers to the three registrations in the Forbes BDM district.
It was not my intention to sidetrack the thread by posting my comments. I apologise to RChat for the apparent sidetrack.
JM
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It would be interesting to see who he names on his marriage cert in 1949.... if one exisits?!
bitzar...
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Well-spotted JM :)
Of course JM means that 2 of the 4 births I mentioned have the same registration (and there is another one which I didn't bother to mention) but the other 2 births of Lawrence G have different
registration numbers.
Ros
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Well-spotted JM :)
Of course JM means that 2 of the 4 births I mentioned have the same registration (and there is another one which I didn't bother to mention) but the other 2 births of Lawrence G have different
registration numbers.
Ros
No. I did not mean that 2 of the 4 births have same registration. There are three INDEXED ie with the same registration number, registered Forbes.
So ONE birth, three indexed entries, ONE certificate.
JM
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Yes JM - 2 of the 4 births I mentioned have the same registration (and there is another one which I didn't mention).
The other 2 births of Lawrence G have different registrations.
I'm sure that's what you meant to say. :)
Ros
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Looking at births on March 12, 1916 in NSW
There is a Lawrence Mc* with only a mother named in Forbes. Perhaps he could have been adopted?
Ros
adding : and there are a couple of Lawrence G births on that date
and a Laurence with only a mother named in Forbes
May I please add that these are all the ONE registration, and there's three entries in the index. You can see these are all the same registration by looking at the registration number. Once you have the registration number and the year you can test for all the indexed details by using the option at the online index " Yes" as you know the registration number.
JM
THREE entries in the index that have the same registration number, registered in the Forbes District, and these can be checked by using the YES option at the NSW BDM online index when you know the registration number. The default option is NO. The advantage for the YES option is once you find an entry at the online index, you can check to see if the same event has been indexed more than once. I can find THREE entries at the online index for the lad whose birth was registered in the Forbes District.
(a couple plus one = three)
JM
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Yes indeed JM 2 of the 4 births I mentioned have the same registration number.
The other 2 have different registration numbers
Ros
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Ros, there are THREE entries for the one birth at Forbes, not two.
JM
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snip from NSW BDM online index Births YES option
JM
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Well-spotted JM :)
Of course JM means that 2 of the 4 births I mentioned have the same registration (and there is another one which I didn't bother to mention) but the other 2 births of Lawrence G have different
registration numbers.
Ros
I'll explain by pm JM. No need to sidetrack the thread.
Ros :)
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I wish you good luck with your quest rusted!
bitzar...
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It would be interesting to see who he names on his marriage cert in 1949.... if one exisits?!
bitzar...
rusted if you decide to apply for a marriage certificate I suggest that you use the period around the time Alma notified the Electoral Commission her change of surname.
Alice Agnew AGNEW aged 64 years was cremated at Fawkner Memorial Park on 10 Sep 1975. It was a cremation service only. No interment Fawkner Memorial Park.
From the Ballarat Cemetery Cremation Register.
AGNEW Lawrence Gordon 61 years Died 19 Nov 1977 Cremated 22 Nov 1977 Residence 39 Ladywood Road, Modbury North, SA. Applicant HEALEY Graeme Sydney.
Cando
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Have you got this marriage cert?
AGNEW Lawrence Gordon MCFAYDEN Jean Elsa Reg. year1942 Reg. no22123
Jamjar
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Well-spotted JM :)
Of course JM means that 2 of the 4 births I mentioned have the same registration (and there is another one which I didn't bother to mention) but the other 2 births of Lawrence G have different
registration numbers.
Ros
I'll explain by pm JM. No need to sidetrack the thread.
Ros :)
Thank you for your PM Ros. It was not (and is not) my intention to sidetrack the thread. I continue to note that there are THREE entries for the ONE birth registered Forbes District.
May I further mention that likely the lad's mum was married at Bathurst NSW in 1917.
....
THREE entries in the index that have the same registration number, registered in the Forbes District, and these can be checked by using the YES option at the NSW BDM online index when you know the registration number. The default option is NO. The advantage for the YES option is once you find an entry at the online index, you can check to see if the same event has been indexed more than once. I can find THREE entries at the online index for the lad whose birth was registered in the Forbes District.
(a couple plus one = three)
JM
JM
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Have you got this marriage cert?
AGNEW Lawrence Gordon MCFAYDEN Jean Elsa Reg. year1942 Reg. no22123
Divorced by 1949 & Jean Elsa AGNEW remarried Lawrence James MORGAN.
Jean Elsa MORGAN died in 2011 - death & funeral notices:
http://tributes.heraldsun.com.au/archivenotice/2981382/view?random=1476698111493
http://tributes.heraldsun.com.au/archivenotice/2981393/view?random=1476698200124
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Have you got this marriage cert?
AGNEW Lawrence Gordon MCFAYDEN Jean Elsa Reg. year1942 Reg. no22123
Jamjar
Good find :)
Australian Electoral Roll
1949
AGNEW Jean Elsie 523 Doveton Street, North Ballarat. Notation MORGAN from 7 Sep 1949.
rusted you can purchase the marriage cert online.
Cando
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Australian Electoral Roll
1943 NSW Darling/Balranald
AGNEW Lawrence Gordon Bananee Labourer
Cando
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As Lawrence/Laurence Gordon AGNEW enlisted in 1940 and married in 1942 it would appear that his NOK wasn't altered on his service file. Usually the last NOK is noted on the WW2 service summary. Usually if a service person is unmarried his father is named if not deceased. I wonder was his mother deceased as well.
http://www.ww2roll.gov.au/Veteran.aspx?serviceId=A&veteranId=427042
Do come back to the thread with all the information on the marriage cert....if you decide to purchase it :D
Cando
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Ethel Williams was Alma's brother's (Stanlet Albert Scott) wifes (Gwendoline Clayton Williams) sister.
How do you know that the NOK was this particular Ethel WILLIAMS. Do you have a copy of the service file? If so it would have her address.
Cheers
Cando
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Thanks everyone for all that information, I did see that earlier marriage but had put it aside to chase up later but it looks like it may be a quicker and easier alternative than his later marriage.
I will get his service file too to confirm if I am looking at the correct Ethel Williams.
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From his first marriage to Jean Elsa McFadyen.
They were married at Scots Church Ballarat on 19 Dec 1942 (could be the 14th)
He was at Watsonia army barracks.
Usual address 12 Stewart St Williamstown
Father John Agnew (dec)
Mother Ruth Bull
No closer to his birth though, it just says born in Melbourne no other details.
The writing on the thing is terrible, it looks like someone dipped a blowfly in an inkwell and let it loose.
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Thank you. Some confusion now. It would appear that Lawrence has given the maiden name of his grandmother Ann BELLINGER nee BULL and also recorded as DEW
Marriage
AGNEW John Ernest Alexander born Ballarat
BELLINGER Ruth born Yorkshire
1912 Reg#7988
Deaths
AGNEW Ruth
Father Reuben BELLINGER Mother Ann DEWS
At Richmond 55 years 1933 Reg#6171
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article204380212
Deaths
AGNEW (nee Lowery) On 7th August at Bethesda Hospital, Ruth Agnes, dearly beloved wife of Jack Agnew and loving mother of Ethel [Mrs H Thomson]
The Age 9 Aug 1933
FUNERAL NOTICES.
AGNEW (nee Lowray).— The Friends of the late Mrs. RUTH AGNEW are respectfully
invited to follow her remains to the place of interment, the St. Kilda Cemetery, The funeral will leave her residence, 83 Clarendon-street, Thornbury, THIS DAY (Tuesday), 8th
August, at 2 o'clock.
First marriage
BELLINGER Ruth born Yorkshire
LOWERY William born Bendigo
1897 Reg#2458
Interred with her mother Ann BELLINGER nee DEWS on the death reg, Hilda W LOWERY and Dorothy LOWERY her infant children.
http://smct.org.au/deceasedsearch/result/14399S
However this appears to be her parents marriage in Victoria.
BELLINGER Reubin born Melbourne
BULL Ann born Yorkshire
1877 Reg#611
Death
AGNEW John Ernest
Father William Mother Catherine BELLINGER
At Melbourne South 49 years 1933 Reg#8061
Inquest Index
AGNEW John E
1933 Ref#1109
Cause Drowned NSE
Inquest Date 25 Sep 1933
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article205118369
The Age 7 Sep 1933
AGNEW On the 7th August. John E. A. Agnewof 83 Clarendon-street, Thornbury N.17
dearly loved husband of the late Ruth, loving father of Ethel [Mrs THOMPSON] son of the late W and C Agnew of Northcote, loving brother of Annie [Mrs Davis], Jane [Mrs Dockney] Mary [Mrs Beeden] Reuban and Maud [Mrs Woodhouse].
AGNEW. — Friends of the late Mr. JOHN E.A. AGNEW are respectfully Informed that his remains will be Interred In the Boroondara Cemetery, Kew. The funeral is appointed to leave his residence, 83 Clarendon-street, Thornbury, THIS DAY (Thursday), 7th September, at 3.30 p.m.
HENRY J. R, LEWIS, Funeral Director,
154 Johnston-street, Fitzroy; 247 High-street,
Northcote. Phone, JW1579.
Now to Ethel - Mrs H THOMPSON/THOMSON. Ruth's daughter.
This is the only death I can find who is the dau of a Ruth BELLINGER.
Death
WILLIAMS Ethel Maude
Father William LOWRY Mother Ruth BELLINGER
At Melbourne 55 years 1963 Reg#18634
Birth
LOWERY Ethel Maud
Father Wm Mother Ruth BELLINGER
At Prahran 1903 Reg#13027
And her marriage
LOWERY Ethel Maude
WILLIAMS Henry Thomson
1928 Reg#7568
Ethel Maud WILLIAMS was cremated at Altona but ashed not interred. Henry Thomson WILLIAMS was cremated and his ashes interred.
http://www.gmct.com.au/deceased-search.aspx
There is an error with her married name in the death notices.
So there is your Ethel WILLIAMS NOK.
Cando
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However this appears to be her parents marriage in Victoria.
BELLINGER Reubin born Melbourne
BULL Ann born Yorkshire
1877 Reg#611
Cando
That was Ann's second marriage, she married firstly to William BULL in 1850 - I think ;D
Debra :)
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Yes you are correct Debra...just about to post it :).
DEWS Ann
BULL William
1850 Reg#23508
And I've just found a death cert for John Ernest AGNEW....NO ISSUE from his marriage to Ruth BELLINGER.
Cando
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Born Yorkshire ::) ::) Possibly her mother was born Yorkshire.
Birth
BELLINGER Ruth
Father Rubin Mother Ann DEWS
At Ballarat 1878 Reg# 210
Cando
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So no issue to the marriage of John AGNEW and Ruth BELLINGER....so who were Lawrence Gordon's parents?
Cando
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From his first marriage to Jean Elsa McFadyen.
They were married at Scots Church Ballarat on 19 Dec 1942 (could be the 14th)
He was at Watsonia army barracks.
Usual address 12 Stewart St Williamstown
Father John Agnew (dec)
Mother Ruth Bull
No closer to his birth though, it just says born in Melbourne no other details.
The writing on the thing is terrible, it looks like someone dipped a blowfly in an inkwell and let it loose.
Australian Electoral Roll - it would appear that Ethel had re-enrolled with their new address.
1949
WILLIAMS Ethel Maude 2 James Street, Williamstown HD.
WILLIAMS Henry Thomson 12 Stewart Street, Williamstown Engineer
1954
WILLIAMS Ethel Maude 2 James Street, Williamstown HD.
WILLIAMS Henry Thomson 2 James Street, Williamstown Engineer
Cando
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Was Ethel his mother? She would have been very young.
Worst case scenario is that he was fostered/boarded out to John and Ruth. Wardship records are closed after 1917 but you can apply for access via FOI.
http://www.dhs.vic.gov.au/for-individuals/applying-for-documents-and-records
Probably some more poking about is needed before going down that slightly complicated route.
Debra :)
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Thanks Cando and Dundee excellent finds, confusing but excellent.
That clears up some of the Ethel Williams line of enquiry anyway.
Next of Kin, so a close relative, if she was his mother she would have been around 13 years old when he was born.
I wonder if the Lawrence Gordon Agnew on the electoral roll at Benanee is the right bloke, my Lawrence wasnt discharged from the army until 1945, I would discount it except that I know my Lawrence enlisted at Mildura so he had some connection with the area. I don't know enough about how the military worked to know if you can enlist be trained and then go off labouring.
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A couple of photos of L G AGNEW - VX14568:
https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/070667/
https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/070659/
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confusing but excellent.
Surely it isn't confusing now.
Electoral listings are no guarantee that the person was at that address on election day.
I can see no other Lawrence/Laurence Gordon AGNEW in the Australian records.
His service file would help you.
Cando
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Date of discharge Aug 1945.
Is this Lawrence, described as Mr L G AGNEW applying for a taxi licence in Port Pirie. South Australia in Dec 1945.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article96177314
Port Pirie is on the railway line between Adelaide and Darwin. Much used line during the war years. Is it possible he returned from New Guinea this route?
Cando
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Ruth and William Lowery had four children, so Ethel could be an aunt to Lawrence.
The Age 8 Feb 1912
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/197398719
DIVORCE COURT.
LOWERY v. LOWERY.
Mr. Justice Hood yesterday heard a petition by Ruth Lowery (32), of Smith-street, Moonee
Ponds, for a dissolution of her marriage with William Lowery (46) , tailor, on the grounds of
habitual drunkenness and desertion. The parties were married on 5th June, 1897, at the
Wesleyan vicarage, Windsor, Victoria, and there were four children. Petitioner stated that re-
spondent was continually in a state of drunkenness, and was very cruel to her. Several times
he had threatened to kill her. His Honor granted a decree nisi, with costs, petitioner to have
custody of the children. Mr. Guy Madden (instructed by Messrs. Woolcott and Drysdale) appeared for the petitioner.
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Date of discharge Aug 1945.
Is this Lawrence, described as Mr L G AGNEW applying for a taxi licence in Port Pirie. South Australia in Dec 1945.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article96177314
Port Pirie is on the railway line between Adelaide and Darwin. Much used line during the war years. Is it possible he returned from New Guinea this route?
Cando
It could be, he was employed as a driver in Brunswick.
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As mentioned earlier Clara Dorothy Grace LOWERY B 1901 #21744 D 1911 #8778 aged10
Hilda Wilfred May LOWERY D 1901 aged 1 Buried in the same grave as Ruth.
Ethel Maude LOWERY we already know about B 1903 D 1963
The other child to that marriage is Ann LOWERY B1897 #22032 so she may be a possible mother to Lawrence, I haven't been able to locate a marriage or death as yet.