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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Yorkshire (West Riding) => Topic started by: Bram Taylor on Thursday 10 November 16 01:09 GMT (UK)
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Hi
I live in Australia and I have for 40 years hit a brick wall with regards to a great great uncle Joseph Abbott who was Baptised on the 4 of November at Wakefield All Saints Church and as seen below his parents are given as George and Sarah Abbott but after all these years I am no closer and I would like to find out where he was born and I turn 80 next year so - time is running out!!
Any help would be very much appreciated. To add to the dilemma they were married as also seen below in Burnley in Lancashire but that may be just muddying the waters?
Thanks if you can help me out
Bram Taylor
Australia
Baptism: 1786 Ref: D30
Joseph Abbott
Son of George and Sarah Abbott
Wakefield all Saints, Wakefield, West Yorkshire
Page 46
November 4th 1786
Wakefield All Saints
Wakefield, West Yorkshire
====================
Page 224, Entry No. 671
Marriage of Joseph Abbott = Rachel Abbott
7 February 1819
Burnley St Peter
Joseph Abbott, Of This Chapelry, Weaver, Bachelor
Alice Riding, Of This Chapelry, Weaver, Spinster
Married by Banns.
Witnesses:
In the Presence of James Hey and James Hargreaves
=============================================
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Before the onset of Civil Registration (1837) dates of birth simply weren't considered important.
Which is why they are so difficult to find! ::)
For most people, the date of baptism was far more important.
Maybe, but it's only a maybe, the Parish Record of the baptism will show a date of birth?
Most PR's didn't.
Did Joseph survive to the 1851 census? That's the first census to give places of birth.
The 1841 census will simply say whether born in county.
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Hello,
How do you know that the two records you mention are for the same person?
Where do you have his relatives - Wakefield or Burnley?
There is this burial:
Wakefield All Saints
Joseph Abbott
Burial 13 Oct 1787
Son of George Abbott
Heywood
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Hi
I obtained a copy of the actual baptism and there is no Birth date given unfortunately. Thanks for your suggestion and will push on again, he is out there somewhere, they usually turn up misspelt or something?
Bram Taylor
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If Joseph Abbott is your great great uncle, how is this connection formed - which births/siblings/parents are you sure about?
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If Joseph Abbott is your great great uncle, how is this connection formed - which births/siblings/parents are you sure about?
I will show you here my definitive family as recorded and this first fellow is Joseph Abbotts son born 1829 in Heptonstall in Yorkshire. Here you can see Joseph and his wife Alice but I have just discovered an important detail that is new and that is the Death of Alice:
Alice Abbott
Died Burnley Registration District
March Quarter 1849
===============
This is also where they married but not his home base as is shown here:
IGI Christening Reference shows father as Joseph Abbott and Alice.
THOMAS ABBOTT
Christening: 31 MAR 1829 Heptonstall, Yorkshire, England
Parents:
Father: JOSEPH ABBOTT, Occupation: Rag Gatherer
Mother: ALICE
============================================================
1851 Census:
Windy Bank,Colne Lancashire
HO107/2254/383 p 23.
Blakey Hartley, Head, age 65 Rag Dealer, b. Colne, Lancashire
Betty Hartley, Wife age 62 b. Colne, Lancashire
Thomas Abbott, Son age 22 Tailor, b. Heptonstall, Yorkshire
======================================================
HO107/2254 Burnley Colne
Folio: 383
Page: 23
=======
1861 Census:
Orchard Cottages, Barnoldswick, Yorkshire
Thomas Abbott, Head age 32, Tailor b. Heptonstall, Yorkshire
Rachel Abbott , Wife age 30 Cotton Weaver b. Barnoldswick, Yorkshire
Blakely Abbott Son age 8 b. Barnoldswick Yorkshire
Broughton Abbott, Son age 5 b. Barnoldswick, Yorkshire
Matilda Abbott, Dau age 3 b. Barnoldswick, Yorkshire
RG9/3184/66 p 36 Skipton Barnoldswick
===========================
1871 Census:
Church Street Little Marsden Lancs
Thomas Abbott, Head age 42 Tailor b. Keplemstall(?), Yorkshire
Rachel Abbott, Wife age 41 Cotton Weaver b. Barnoldswick, Yorkshire
Broughton Abbott, Son age 16 Cotton Weaver b. Barnoldswick, Yorkshire
Atkinson Abbott, Son age 9 b. Barnoldswick, Yorkshire
Ellen Ann Abbott, Dau age 4 b. Marsden, Lancashire
Thos William Abbott, Son age 1 b. Marsden, Lancashire
RG10/4155/157 p 16 Burnley
=============================================================
Death Source:
June Quarter, 1873
Burnley District, Lancashire
8e 172
Since then I found a new marriage of a Joseph Abbott to I think a Margaret in 1849 which sounded right and Internet Explorer crashed and I lost the jolly thing and I am trying to recover it!!!! It is very unstable in Windows Ten 64 Bit!!
Anyway - I found this reference I think is relevant in 1851 it is of course the Census record.
HO107/2280/155 p 3 Thrusscross Pately Bridge
Joseph Abbott 64 b Dacre Yorkshire
Margaret Abbott 63
Thomas Abbott 23
I am grateful for your help and hope this is not an information overload or break any rules, I am new at this caper!
Cheers,
Bram Taylor
Australia
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Hello again,
I had seen your previous thread re the Abbotts and particularly Thomas b 1829- I think you have referred to him as Joseph in previous post.
If you are sure that your family are based around Burnley, then that is perhaps the area to concentrate on. Heptonstall is close to Burnley but Wakefield and Pateley Bridge are not.
I realise that people did travel but for the moment, it might be best to narrow the search rather than broaden it.
I think you have had this discussion previously, but it looks as though Thomas is marked as 'Un' rather than 'son' and perhaps just means unmarried - wrong column.
Do you have Thomas in 1841?
Heywood
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This thread is about Joseph born abt 1786 and you have him married to Alice Ridley, Burnley.
Thomas born abt 1829, Heptonstall, is the son of Joseph and Alice.
How is Joseph, your great great uncle as in your first post here? Who is your ancestor?
Sorry if you have posted this and I haven't seen it or have misunderstood.
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Sorry I can't help with Thomas, but I think that the Alice Abbott who died in 1849 is not your Alice.
New GRO search facilities shows that Alice Abbott who died March quarter 1849 was 28 years old.
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Blakey Hartley married Betty Brown 31st August 1822, St Bartholomew's, Colne.
Lancashire OPC http://www.lan-opc.org.uk
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Blakey Hartley married Betty Brown 31st August 1822, St Bartholomew's, Colne.
Lancashire OPC http://www.lan-opc.org.uk
Sorry, I'm being negative again :'( :'( If you look at the original image for the 1851 census return for Blakey, Betty and Thomas you will see that Thomas is shown as "Un" rather than "Son" in the transcription.
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Blakey Hartley married Betty Brown 31st August 1822, St Bartholomew's, Colne.
Lancashire OPC http://www.lan-opc.org.uk
Sorry, I'm being negative again :'( :'( If you look at the original image for the 1851 census return for Blakey, Betty and Thomas you will see that Thomas is shown as "Un" rather than "Son" in the transcription.
You are not being negative - we are trying to solve the same conundrum.
If you look at my reply 6, I have posted this information already.
By quoting the marriage I was attempting to disprove the connection between the Hartleys and Thomas Abbott.
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To confuse the issues re places even more:
There is a baptism at St Peter's Burnley 9th January 1820
Olive Abbott to John and Alice but the abode is shown as Hunslet Fold, parish of Leeds - which then moves nearer to Wakefield ???
That Joseph is a cloth-dresser.
We really need to know which Abbott person is your ancestor, Bram. None of these may be relevant until that is known.
Heywood
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Burials at All Saints, Wakefield:
Joseph - son of George - 13 October 1787 (already noted)
George - son of George - 8 November 1785
Hannah - wife of George - 24 September 1784
Marriage at All Saints, Dewsbury:
George Abbott of the parish of Wakefield, Staymaker and bachelor and Hannah Wilby (x) spinster otp by Banns - 3 February 1779.
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Is there any way I can attach a short family tree to my message? Two pages made in Ancestry. It would make things much more easy to see. It is the direct path from my uncle to joseph and it is complicated because I have two paths to Joseph as my cousin and uncle are Abbotts of course but also, my maternal grandfather married an Abbott relative before he married my maternal grandmother, I told you it was complicated!!
Bram,
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I've no idea, but try it. When you open the reply box, underneath the box itself, there is "Attachments and other options" Hit that and you have the option to choose your file and attach it.
Give it a go ;D
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I just saw the marriage of Thomas Abbott to Rachel Atkinson - father Blakey Hartley.
Confusing isn't it ??? :)
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Hi all and thanks for all the hard yards put in - I'm a bit overwhelmed but to take one point first, in the 1851 Census attached it shows Thomas as 'Un', not as assumed, 'Son'. Thanks Heywood, well spotted! Strangely, in the 1860 Census Thomas, still a Tailor has named his Son Blakey Hartley Abbott which implies there was some sort of affection shown here by Thomas for his former companions in the 1851?
That will help to answer your last (today) email, there was a deep bond of some sort?
Bram
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As you can see from the attached certificates, there is an "H" before
Abbot both in the marriage cert. and in the birth cert. of Blakey
Hartley Abbott. I can understand this discrepancy as I have on occasions
had people pronounce my name with an "H". Must be our pronunciation!!
Blakey and Hartley have been used on a number of occasions in the family
of Thomas but I still don't know where Blakey Hartley fits in the family
other than Thomas went to live with him and Betty at some stage before
1851 as you can see from the census. He is either a family member
somehow or is very well respected by Thomas and Rachael. There is no
mention of either Blake or Betty prior to the 1851 census so you guess
is as good as mine but obviously there is some connection.
It is still a mystery why Thomas would be living with them and why he
doesn't appear on the 1841 census, surely both Joseph and Alice couldn't
have died before 1841??? Of course it is quite possible.
Bram
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In order to get back on to some solid ground, here is some information off the Birth Certificate of Blakey Hartley Abbott
Born 25 December 1852 at Barnoldswick, Registration district of Skipton. Registered 22 of January 1853
Father: Thomas Habbet, Mother: Rachel Habbet, formerly Atkinson, Occupation of father: Tailor
Rachel Made her mark
===================
Here is the Marriage of Thomas Abbott, his father:
Marriage, 21 July 1851, The Parish Church, parish of Barnoldswick, County of York
Thomas Habbet, 22, Bachelor, Tailor, Residence at Time of Marriage, Barnoldswick
Father's name: Blakey Hartley, Labourer
Rachel Atkinson, 20, Spinster, Tailor, (Do), Residence at time of Marriage, Barnoldswick
Father, Thomas Atkinson, Tailor
Witnesses: Broughton Atkinson & Richard Hiddup
====================
Thomas Habbett,
Thomas
This is an extract of a copy of the Marriage Certificate of Thomas Abbott, (spelt Habbett) and Rachel Atkinson
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Thanks for the information.
Your first post says that Joseph is your great great uncle ::)
Who is your great great ancestor - direct line? Perhaps naming and finding that person would help solve any mystery.
Is your post an error? Are you descended from Joseph via Thomas?
Heywood
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Think we are going over previously covered ground:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=135112.0
Do you have any information about Joseph after his baptism?
Can you post an actual census that you have found him in?
Thank-you
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Yes, it is complicated because I have a double connection up to Thomas and then Joseph because my mother's father, my maternal grandfather firstly married a Rachel Sewell who is in a parallel line down from Joseph/Thomas and as well, my uncle Thomas William Abbott, has a direct line through to Joseph as well and when I try and assess my connection in 'Tools/Relationship Calculator in Family Tree Maker it immediately tracks me through my grandfather's line, NOT my uncle which of course gives me that he is the "Paternal Grandfather of wife of Maternal Grandfather".
So, going the proper way you have Thomas William Abbott, Uncle, Atkinson Abbott, Great Uncle, Broughton Abbott as Great Great Uncle and then Thomas Hartley Abbott, Great Great Great Uncle and finally, we have the enigmatic Joseph at the top of the tree, (Not counting his dad, George) making Great Great Great Great uncle, if you go that way which I suppose you do so - It seems I am a couple of greats out, if that matters?
As you can see from the certificates, there is an "H" before
'Abbet' both in the marriage cert. and in the birth cert. of Blakey
Hartley Abbott.
Blakey and Hartley have been used on a number of occasions in the family
of Thomas but I still don't know where Blakey Hartley fits in the family
other than Thomas went to live with him and Betty at some stage before
1851 as you can see from the census. He is either a family member
somehow or is very well respected by Thomas and Rachael. There is no
mention of either Blake or Betty prior to the 1851 census so you guess
is as good as mine but obviously there is some connection.
It is still a mystery why Thomas would be living with them and why he
doesn't appear on the 1841 census, surely both Joseph and Alice couldn't
have died before 1841??? Of course it is quite possible?
My mother's father, William Thomas Sewell initially married a Rachel Abbott who is the daughter of Thomas Hartley Abbott who is the son of the elusive Joseph that is the person I want to locate in 1841 or a baptism/birth someplace?
The other more regular line is from my uncle, Thomas William Abbott, b 1902 in Nelson, his dad was Atkinson Abbott b 1st of April 1880 in Barnoldswick, his dad was Broughton Abbott born 1 April 1855 in Barnoldswick, then his father was Thomas Hartley Abbott who I think you may have come across born 4th of February 1829 in Heptonstall and then the mysterious 'Joseph' I want to identify.
Thanks for your help,
Bram Taylor
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You have put:
Thomas William Abbott, Uncle, Atkinson Abbott, Great Uncle, Broughton Abbott as Great Great Uncle and then Thomas Hartley Abbott, Great Great Great Uncle and finally, we have the enigmatic Joseph at the top of the tree,
Thomas William Abbott born when and where?
Atkinson Abbott born when and where?
Broughton Abbott born when and where?
Thomas Hartley Abbott born when and where?
Joseph which census is he in?
Are these men all direct sons of the person next in the chain?
Thank-you
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I can see and follow that Rachel Abbott, daughter of Thomas Abbott married William Thomas Sewell but you don't seem to refer to her as your maternal grandmother - only as the wife of your maternal grandfather.
Does this mean that as far as direct line is concerned you do not connect to Thomas Abbott.
However, your uncle is Thomas William Abbott. Again, you have his line and he is connected to Rachel Abbott but is his also only a connection to you through marriage and not blood related?
Did he marry your blood relative aunt?
It just helps to clarify the situation and also you want to find out the link between Blakey H and Thomas.
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I can't remember how you know that Joseph's father was George? Where is the information?
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Hi
This was the basis of that information
Baptism: 1786 Ref: D30
Joseph Abbott
Son of George and Sarah Abbott
Wakefield all Saints, Wakefield, West Yorkshire
Page 46
November 4th 1786
Wakefield All Saints
Wakefield, West Yorkshire
====================
Page 224, Entry No. 671
Marriage of Joseph Abbott = Rachel Abbott
7 February 1819
Burnley St Peter
Joseph Abbott, Of This Chapelry, Weaver, Bachelor
Alice Riding, Of This Chapelry, Weaver, Spinster
Married by Banns.
Witnesses:
In the Presence of James Hey and James Hargreaves
=============================================
Thanks again,
Bram
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I can see and follow that Rachel Abbott, daughter of Thomas Abbott married William Thomas Sewell but you don't seem to refer to her as your maternal grandmother - only as the wife of your maternal grandfather.
Does this mean that as far as direct line is concerned you do not connect to Thomas Abbott.
However, your uncle is Thomas William Abbott. Again, you have his line and he is connected to Rachel Abbott but is his also only a connection to you through marriage and not blood related?
Did he marry your blood relative aunt?
It just helps to clarify the situation and also you want to find out the link between Blakey H and Thomas.
Hi Heywood
Thomas William Abbott was married to my mother's sister, Martha Prestige Sewell and their son, Gordon is my cousin an ex Coldstream Guard who lives near me in Australia.
Bram
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Thank you.
Where do you have George as Joseph's father?
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Here they are.
Thomas William Abbott b 17 December 1902 in Nelson, Lancs,
Married Martha Prestidge Sewell 05 Mar 1927 at the Salvation Army in Nelson
Atkinson Abbott b 1 April 1880 Barnoldswick, Yorks,
Married Annie Elizabeth Dawson, (2nd wife) 09 Dec 1899 in Nelson
Broughton Abbott b 09 May 1855, Barnoldswick, Yorks
Married Eliza Garner (2 Wife) , 26 Jan 1876, Gill Church, Barnoldswick
Thomas Hartley Abbott, (Habbet) b 04 Feb 1829, Heptonstall, Yorks
Married, Rachel Atkinson 28 Jul 1851 Barnoldswick
Joseph Abbott, Baptised 04 Nov 1786 at Wakefield All Saints Church, Wakefield,
Son of George and Sarah Abbott Ref D30 Page 46
Page 224, Entry No. 671
Marriage of Joseph Abbott
7 February 1819, Burnley St Peter
Joseph Abbott, Of This Chapelry, Weaver, Bachelor
Alice Riding, Of This Chapelry, Weaver, Spinster
Married by Banns.
Witnesses:
In the Presence of James Hey and James Hargreaves
The reason for this post/thread is we can find nothing further about Joseph and Alice except their children that they obviously had;
PR 3027/1/9
Baptism at Burnley St Peters
Olive Abbott
Page 362, Entry No. 2958
9 January 1820
Abode: Hunslet, (Told; in the Parish of Leeds, Co. of York".)
Father Joseph Abbott, Cloth 'Dresser?'
Mother: Alice
Thomas Abbott b Abt. 1825, Pateley Bridge, Yorks
Buried 14 Oct 1828 at Church of England, Colne, Lancs
Thomas Hartley Abbott b 04 Feb 1829, Heptonstall, Yorks
Married Rachel Atkinson, 28 Jul 1851, Barnoldswick
IGI Christening Reference shows father as Joseph Abbott and Alice.
THOMAS ABBOTT
bapt 31 MAR 1829 Heptonstall, Yorkshire
Parents: JOSEPH & Alice ABBOTT, Occupation: Rag Gatherer
============
1851 Census:
Windy Bank, Colne Lancashire
HO107/2254/ 83 p 23.
Colne, Lancashire
Blakey Hartley, Head, age 65 Rag Dealer, b. Colne, Lancashire
Betty Hartley, Wife age 62 b. Colne, Lancashire
Thomas Abbott, age 22 Tailor, b. Hepponstall, Yorkshire
======================================================
HO107/2254 Burnley Colne
Folio: 383
Page: 23
=======
1861 Census:
Orchard Cottages, Barnoldswick, Yorkshire
Thomas Abbott, Head age 32, Tailor b. Heptonstall, Yorkshire
Rachel Abbott , wife age 30 Cotton Weaver b. Barnoldswick, Yorkshire
Blakely Abbott son age 8 b. Barnoldswick Yorkshire
Broughton Abbott, son age 5 b. Barnoldswick, Yorkshire
Matilda Abbott, dau age 3 b. Barnoldswick, Yorkshire
RG9/3184 Skipton Barnoldswick
Folio: 66
Page: 36
===========================
1871 Census:
Church Street Little Marsden Lancs
Thomas Abbott, Head age 42 Tailor b. Keplemstall(?), Yorkshire
Rachel Abbott, Wife age 41 Cotton Weaver b. Barnoldswick, Yorkshire
Broughton Abbott, Son age 16 Cotton Weaver b. Barnoldswick, Yorkshire
Atkinson Abbott, Son age 9 b. Barnoldswick, Yorkshire
Ellen Ann Abbott, Dau age 4 b. Marsden, Lancashire
Thos William Abbott, Son age 1 b. Marsden, Lancashire
RG10/4155 Burnley
Folio: 157
Page: 16
=============================================================
Death Source:
June Quarter, 1873
Burnley District, Lancashire
Hope that fills in a few of the gaps, if I/we could only find Joseph in the 1841/1851 census or - his earlier death that would join the dots?
Regards,
Bram Taylor
These men are all direct sons of the person next in the chain?
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You have worked very hard!
If you only have George as the father of Joseph in Wakefield, that Joseph died. I posted the death at the beginning of this thread.
That would then leave you with no parents for Joseph, I know, but leave other searches open.
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Hi heywood
You may remember I had (briefly) found a marriage of a Joseph Abbott to a 'Margaret' a while back which I thought may be a second wife of Josephs before my Internet Explorer died and I lost it again and now can not find it but I thought he may have re-married? For what it is worth, here is a reference to an identical arrangement with no claims as to it's usefulness or otherwise. Your opinion would be appreciated though?
Bram
1851 Census for Joseph Abbott and Margaret
Name: Joseph Abbott
Age: 64
Linen Weaver
Estimated birth year: abt 1787
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Margaret Abbott
Gender: Male
Where born: Dacre, Yorkshire, England
Civil Parish: Thruscross
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England
Registration district: Pateley Bridge
Sub-registration district: Ramsgill
ED, institution, or vessel: 1
Household schedule number: 9
Piece: 2280
Folio: 155
Page Number: 3
Household Members: Name Age
Joseph Abbott 64
Margaret Abbott 63
Thomas Abbott 23
Disregard this one, Thomas was an Ag Lab and ours is a Tailor,
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You have worked very hard!
If you only have George as the father of Joseph in Wakefield, that Joseph died. I posted the death at the beginning of this thread.
That would then leave you with no parents for Joseph, I know, but leave other searches open.
I will go along with that, but then we have this to fall back on:
Page 224, Entry No. 671
Marriage of Joseph Abbott
7 February 1819
Burnley St Peter
Joseph Abbott, Of This Chapelry, Weaver, Bachelor
Alice Riding, Of This Chapelry, Weaver, Spinster
Married by Banns.
Witnesses:
In the Presence of James Hey and James Hargreaves
=================
This becomes the only solid information left on OUR Joseph, their marriage with no father given unless it is recorded somewhere else? We really need to be able to open this marriage up but at the moment I am at a loss? Also You get back to the Censuses again but where are they???
Bram
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Various quotes from this thread
1851 Census:
Windy Bank,Colne Lancashire
HO107/2254/383 p 23
==================
Blakey Hartley, Head, age 65 Rag Dealer, b. Colne, Lancashire
Betty Hartley, Wife age 62 b. Colne, Lancashire
Thomas Abbott, Son age 22 Tailor, b. Heptonstall, Yorkshire
===================
Here is the Marriage of Thomas Abbott, his father:
Marriage, 21 July 1851, The Parish Church, parish of Barnoldswick, County of York
Thomas Habbet, 22, Bachelor, Tailor, Residence at Time of Marriage, Barnoldswick
Father's name: Blakey Hartley, Labourer
Rachel Atkinson, 20, Spinster, Tailor, (Do), Residence at time of Marriage, Barnoldswick
Father, Thomas Atkinson, Tailor
Witnesses: Broughton Atkinson & Richard Hiddup
----------------------------------------------------------
Blakey Hartley married Betty Brown 31st August 1822, St Bartholomew's, Colne (From Keyboard)
***************************************************************************************************************************
THOMAS ABBOTT
Christening: 31 MAR 1829 Heptonstall, Yorkshire, England
Parents:
Father: JOSEPH ABBOTT, Occupation: Rag Gatherer - ??
Mother: ALICE
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Hi Dobfarm
Thanks for that, I actually posted that early on in proceedings as this: but I am at this very moment trying to find Thomas in the 1841 because he certainly survived long past it! But thanks for your searching, I'll get him one day!! It was weird that Thomas for some reason called Blakey Hartley his father on his marriage certificate and his name is spelt Habbet!! He is certainly invisible! I am trying all types of spelling to find him in 1841 but - Nothing!! Not that will prove much if his dad is not with him too?
Bram
'IGI Christening Reference shows father as Joseph Abbott and Alice.
THOMAS ABBOTT
Christening: 31 MAR 1829 Heptonstall, Yorkshire, England
Parents:
Father: JOSEPH ABBOTT, Occupation: Rag Gatherer
Mother: ALICE
Source Information:
Batch No.: Dates: Source Call No.: Type: Printout Call No.: Type:
C007482 1813 - 1847 0990611, 0990612 Film 6909606 Film Sheet: 00
============================================================
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We don't want to digress too much - it's becoming repetitive and more complicated. :)
Just to confirm the death of Joseph born in Wakefield - here is it is:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N5B2-Q8S
dobfarm,
1851 census - Thomas Abbott is not described as 'son' . The census shows 'Un'.
However, his marriage shows Blakey Hartley as his father and the attachment to the man/name continues through naming of children.
There are a couple of Blakey Hartleys but it is not confirmed where he is in 1841.
Thomas Abbott has not been found in 1841.
The christening of Thomas to parents Joseph and Alice in Heptonstall would seem to confirm it is the same Thomas as he gives his place of birth as Heptonstall in subsequent censuses.
It is interesting to note as dobfarm has highlighted that Joseph Abbott was a rag gatherer in the baptism record and Blakey Hartley is a rag dealer in 1851.
As Bram says - 1841 could be the key.
Habbet/Abbott variations are understandable - if you are illiterate, you are dependant on the person who writes your name. ;)
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Hi
I'll go along with that, we have two candidates for Thomas's 'Father'? The christening of Thomas to parents Joseph and Alice in Heptonstall and his identifying Blakey Hartley as his father in his later marriage. As Joseph has now been proven to be deceased it seems to be what we would today call an adoption by Blakey? Thomas did very well for himself to become a Tailor and I wondered if there would be any papers indenturing him to a master Tailor?
I have been searching all day with all possible spelling for Thomas 1841 - Nothing -Nowt!
Bram
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Taking Thomas Abbott (Abbet-Abbot) (Habbett or Habbet) circa approximated/estimated year of birth 1829 Heptonstall in Yorkshire is the datum point to work back from.
Heptonstall is a place of a lot of near to each other villages & parishes along the river Calder valley between Halifax and Todmorden with Hebden Bridge in between:- There was a high concentration of non conformity chapels also Quakers meeting houses along with Anglican religion.
(( a word of caution - Its possible Blakey Hartley's (a Rag dealer) had a father called Blakey Hartley in Trade directory))
Blakey Hartley of Windy Hill, Colne 1851c and Thomas's marriage - Blakey Hartley (abode 'Windy bank' Colne in Trades directory) occupation deals in Rags
Also Dyer, Shopkeeper and dealer of Earthenware, Glass and China ware.
It would seem Blakey Hartley had a few trades and a man of some means: see link below. Trades Directory Colne 1824 & 1829
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=G4AfAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA622&dq=blakey+hartley+colne&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=blakey%20hartley%20colne&f=false
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=hdMHAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA249&dq=blakey+hartley+barnoldswick&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=blakey%20hartley%20barnoldswick&f=false
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If Blakey Hartley left a Will with a probate record may resolve some matters
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Dobfarm,
Do you have Blakey Hartley in 1841?
There is one in Colne - 65 yrs, a winder in the same household as Betty Hargreaves and other Hargreaves.
Added: this is not him- he is at 1851 /2254/185/15
One 55 yrs, a Shopkeeper in Heptonstall living alone in High Street.
One 55 yrs a farmer with wife Hannah in Warley. These are in 1851
1851 and 1861
Blakey and Betty are in Windy Bank.
There doesn't seem to be a will.
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Is there any way I can attach a short family tree to my message? Two pages made in Ancestry. It would make things much more easy to see. It is the direct path from my uncle to joseph and it is complicated because I have two paths to Joseph as my cousin and uncle are Abbotts of course but also, my maternal grandfather married an Abbott relative before he married my maternal grandmother, I told you it was complicated!!
Bram,
Hello Bram
I would have to go to the Library to access your tree. But are you saying that two lines originating from a same family union, have later married across the two lines?
I was reading something published fairly recently about Quaker families and the author is claiming that this practice occurred?
Putting that comment to one side, I have been searching the British Newspaper Archive for Habbett and found the following, who may, or may not be related:-
15 January 1805
Habbett was Master of the "Catherine" from London. This Norfolk newspaper was giving the arrivals at Yarmouth, but we know that vessels navigated the East Coast of England on the German Ocean (renamed the North Sea), to places in Yorkshire and up the East coast to Scotland.
Families involving Masters, Mariners, Seamen and Sailors are notoriously difficult to trace.
Carrying on with a Nautical theme ...
October 1869
In the Cardiff Times (Wales) a Joseph Habbett, Seaman, being assaulted, in Bute Road. Wound dressed by Dr Jones.
August 1873
At Cardiff Police Court (Wales) "Obstructing Board of Trade Surveyor" regarding Mr Habbett, a Board of Trade Surveyor being obstructed on board the Charlotte Harrison.
Thomas Plain, of Cardiff, shipowner.
Mr Miller, Board of Trade.
Mr Ensor appeared in support of the charge.
Alnwick Mercury 30 May 1874
Bronze Medallion awarded to R. M. Glasspole for saving the life of Richard Habbett in the River Thames, Hammersmith, London.
They may not be of any use to you at all, but may be of use to other searchers.
Regards Mark
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An internet search engine search for Quakers (Society of Friends) Obituaries - type in, in commas "The Annual Monitor" "Blakey"
A few Blakey are Quakers.
A few Hartley are Quakers.
https://www.google.co.uk/#q=%22The+Annual+Monitor%22+%22Blakey%22
https://www.google.co.uk/#q=%22The+Annual+Monitor%22+%22Hartley%22
No Habbett, but also some Abbott and Abbatt too.
My Gt. Grandfather married an Abbott and I very very vaguely seem to recall someone saying some of her family were Quakers.
If you get the year, you can usually find a free download edition (google books / internet archive archive.org or the official 'Open Library', or main University).
Don't be fooled by a location, because when their spouse died, they sometimes moved to another Meeting and very occasionally another country. A few Females were Ministers too.
Regards Mark
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Hello
Tried to copy the link, so copied part.
William Pickles Hartley (1846 – 1922) was born in Colne, Lancashire, the only surviving son of a locksmith. He left school aged fourteen, and joined his mother’s small grocery venture. Within two years he was running the business, which soon grew to become one of the largest wholesale grocers in Lancashire.
Got it ...
http://letslookagain.com/2015/02/sweet-success-a-history-of-hartleys-jam/
We are not Methodists (don't know about my ancestors) but it was an ingrained family tradition in our house to only ever, have Hartley's Jam !
Hartley was a Primitive Methodist ...
http://www.myprimitivemethodists.org.uk/page_id__714.aspx
These are possible reasons for not finding or having difficulty finding records of our ancestors.
I'm discovering that some of these faiths were interlinked, e.g. a Quaker would go and teach at the Wesleyan School, etc.
One Slogan
Hartley Abbott's Oatmeal is the perfection of food
Famous for porridge oats with their base at Cardiff, Wales, Great Britain up to November 1896 as ...
November 1896
Partnerships Dissolved.
Robert Hartley and J. G. E. Abbott, trading as Hartley, Abbott, and Co., at Paradise place, Cardiff, merchants.
Also Hartley Abbott and Co.
Somewhere I have the porridge brand name noted, I'll try and find it.
Regards Mark
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Hello Bram and All
Further to my posts above, found a newspaper reference for Joseph Abbott, not sure if it is helpful or not, but ...
Newcastle Guardian 29 August 1846
At St Mary's Church, Gateshead ... Joseph Abbott only son of William Hymers, Esq. of Gateshead, to Miss Pollock, only daughter of Ald. Pollock, of the same borough.
Regards Mark
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Lincolnshire Chronicle 12 April 1850
At Hobart Town, Van Dieman's Land, on the 7th November last, on board Her Majesty's ship "Anson," (by the Rev. John Egglestone,) Mr. Thomas Abbott, eldest son of Mr. Abbott, of Mumby, in this county, to Martha second daughter of Mr. Holdich, of Penley's Grove street, York.
One Thomas Abbott in the Navy?
Regards Mark
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Hi
Sorry for my tardy reply, had to go away for a couple of days I think I have got all that I am going to get now online as Thomas Abbott does not seem to be in the 1841 census unless he is another misspelt entry of which I have many!! Thanks to you all for pitching in with your advice and suggestions it was very much appreciated. I am not too sure how I end this posting but no doubt someone will help me out?
One again thanks to you all for your assistance.
Regards,
Bram Taylor
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Hello Bram
Regarding the 1841 Census in series HO 107, some parts were missing at the Public Record Office (TNA, Kew), possibly on transfer.
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_st=adv&_ep=missing&_col=0&_cr1=HO%20107&_dss=range&_ro=any&_hb=tna
Regards Mark
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Hello Mark
Thanks for that information, I will have another look into it. At the moment I am about to re-install Windows 10 Pro as it has a few problems so I will be off air for about a day but will go into those records again for about the thirtieth time!!
Regards,
Bram
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Hello Bram
Thanks, see ... "Links to lists of 'MISSING' or 'WANTING' CENSUS 1841 TO 1911" that go direct to The National Archives, Kew, catalogue regarding each decade of the Census from 1841 onward ...
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=759827.0
after a TNA, Reader instructed us how to interrogate The NA, Kew Catalogue search, regarding missing, or wanting documents in TNA, Kew (fomerly our Public Record Office)
and CaroleW has kindly posted the following link in her response to my links, to a list on FindMyPast to check/compare ...
http://www.findmypast.co.uk/articles/census-for-england-wales-and-scotland-missing-pieces
Regards Mark