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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: CassT on Wednesday 07 December 16 04:46 GMT (UK)
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Hi
I am wondering if another pair of eyes might be able to find details on the NSW BDM Index of a marriage which occurred on 27 Jan 1842 between Thomas LEE and Ann WAIT at St James, Sydney NSW.
I found this information on the Family Search Site, but have had no luck with the NSW BDM index.
In the SMH 6.6.1851 there is a death Notice for Ann, wife of Thomas Lee of the St Johns Tavern.
On 18.9.1851 Thomas was married to Eliza Cox, I have all the information on Thomas and Eliza's family, and am now trying to find details of Thomas and Ann
Cass
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Hi Cass,
The marriage of Thomas Lee and Anne Leister or Liester took place on 27 Jan 1842 district LD
Perhaps she was a widow and one was her maiden name and other her widowed name
Ros
Adding : 1554/1842 V1842 155492
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Well LD is apparently St Mary's Roman Catholic Sydney so maybe not :(
Ros
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I think civil registration didn't start till the 1850s so perhaps the record never reached the BMDs. I guess JM might be along soon to help with this!
FamilySearch definitely has the marriage as quoted by Cass.
Thomas Lee, Ann Wait
27 Jan 1842 at St. James, Sydney, New South Wales, Australia
Here is a link for the death Notice for Ann -
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/12927732
and the Marriage notice for Thomas and Eliza COX, 18 September 1851, the time at St Lawrence church - only 3 months after the death of Ann
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/12930475
Is Ann the daughter of James WAIT of Argyle?
There is a child aged 1 mentioned on a General Muster of 1825, arrived per Hoogly,
Ann WAIT, arr 1825, per Hoogley
Province: New South Wales
Title: General muster M - Z
Year(s): 1825
Estimated birth year: abt 1824
Judith
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Ros, thank you,
looking at the early church codes there was a number of churches named St James in the different Christian denominations , Baptist, C of E , Congregational, Presbyterian, OR where the churches in the Parish/Circuit/District called "St James".
If St Marys was in the Parish/Circuit/District of St James you might have hit the jackpot,
Judith also a thank you
I also found that entry on the 1825 Muster but could not find any convict with a surname like Wait on the Hoogley, there is a fellow called Jonas Waight on the Countess of Harcourt in 1821 that arrived in Tasmania and John Wait who was on the Coromondel who is listed on the 1822 general muster of Argyle.
I don't know Ann's parents names, If I can find the marriage details to Thomas Lee, I might get the certificate, however I have found the old cert do not usually include parents name, I wonder if her death certificate might help. If all else fails I will purchase the death cert.
Cass
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There are plenty of events missing from the online indexes. If it was the C of E St James I would bet that the number for the entry is 103/1842 V1842104 26C.
Marriages in the index for St James C of E (groom surname) in 1842 - Church Code CJ:
10 Jan LAYZELL 97/1842 V1842104 26C
17 Jan BROOKER 98/1842 V1842104 26C
18 Jan BARR 99/1842 V1842104 26C
19 Jan GRIMSHAW 100/1842 V1842104 26C
20 Jan SPEED 101/1842 V1842104 26C
27 Jan MATTHEWS 102/1842 V1842104 26C
Missing entry 103/1842 V1842104 26C
1 Feb VENOUR 104/1842 V1842104 26C
I would contact the Registry and ask them about that missing entry.
Debra :D
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Thanks Debra,
another cleaver find,
a job for me tomorrow, to contact the Registry will let you know how I get on
Cass
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There is a child aged 1 mentioned on a General Muster of 1825, arrived per Hoogly,
Ann WAIT, arr 1825, per Hoogley
Province: New South Wales
Title: General muster M - Z
Year(s): 1825
Estimated birth year: abt 1824
Sorry, her record shows BC=Born in the Colony ;)
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Is Ann the daughter of James WAIT of Argyle?
There is a child aged 1 mentioned on a General Muster of 1825, arrived per Hoogly,
Ann WAIT, arr 1825, per Hoogley
Province: New South Wales
Title: General muster M - Z
Year(s): 1825
Estimated birth year: abt 1824
Many well researched records show that she was the daughter of John WAIT/WAITE & Mary ROBINSON.
http://australianroyalty.net.au/individual.php?pid=I80911&ged=purnellmccord.ged
http://australianroyalty.net.au/individual.php?pid=I80918&ged=purnellmccord.ged
She married Benjamin ALLEN 1843.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/12412434
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Thanks, Merlin - was worth a look!
Judith
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I think civil registration didn't start till the 1850s so perhaps the record never reached the BMDs. I guess JM might be along soon to help with this!
and
There are plenty of events missing from the online indexes. If it was the C of E St James I would bet that the number for the entry is 103/1842 V1842104 26C.
Marriages in the index for St James C of E (groom surname) in 1842 - Church Code CJ:
Missing entry 103/1842 V1842104 26C
I would contact the Registry and ask them about that missing entry.
and I am confident that :
It is very likely that Debra has found the missing reference number, line 103.
Back in the 1980s, when the NSW BDM was transferring the details from the manual system to their then computerised system, they did so via the then ‘latest technology’. That technology was the EDP card system. Anyone remember what happened if a card was damaged, jammed, etc? What happened to the data? Well, what if there were apparent duplications? What happened then?
So, from familysearch online there’s a Thomas LEE marrying an Ann WAIT and there’s a Thomas LEE marrying a Mary CLARKE, both marriages are recorded in Church of England parish registers held in Sydney NSW, and both marriages are in January 1842.
I suggest that perhaps at some early stage during the introduction of the EDP system someone may have drawn the conclusion that there was a duplication, and the second card was removed to 'FILE 13".
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTCP-VB3 Thomas LEE Mary CLARKE, St Laurence, Sydney. 21 Jan 1842
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTCP-Z6N Thomas LEE Ann WAIT, St James, Sydney 27 Jan 1842
Both St Laurence and St James are well known Anglican Churches within the Sydney CBD. The NSW BDM’s Early Church Records for CofE marriages in Sydney Town in 1842 are part of Volume 26C. Both the above marriages should be in that Volume, and the one that is currently displayed at NSWBDM’s online index IS shown as Volume 26C (Thomas LEE and Mary CLARKE is at line 198. (198/1842 V1842198 26C)
St Laurence is Christ Church St Laurence, near to Central Station, Sydney 2000
http://www.ccsl.org.au/
St James is : http://sjks.org.au/
Quite a number of years ago now, when I was actively transcribing parish registers, I came across a Sydney CBD parish register with several hundred entries that were not showing up on the NSW BDM online index, NOR on the CD/film etc at either NSW State Library or elsewhere.
It took some effort but once NSW BDM was sure that these were extant records, and after the major upgrade to their website, the entries now are part of the online index.
Well sorted Debra !
JM
PS when contacting the NSW BDM do not rely on the 'call centre' response. You want a response from the Executive team. Call centre operators can be relied on to mis-understand many aspects of the Early Church Records. I have first hand experience of being TOLD that "V" stands for Vital Records. (It doesn't, it represents the Volume of the ledger compiled in the 1910-1915 era).
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/Pages/about-us/history-of-the-registry.aspx
https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/collections-and-research/guides-and-indexes/births-deaths-and-marriages-registers-1787-1856
https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/collections-and-research/guides-and-indexes/births-deaths-and-marriages-guide
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Ann WAIT
I wonder if this is her? If so, she was Born in the Colony.
Ann Wiat / Ann Weat, daughter of John Wiat /John Weat & Mary Wiat / Mary Weat; Born 5 Aug 1824 County of Argyle, Baptised 8 Dec 1824, by Reverend Thomas Reddall, Registered at St Peter's Church of England Campbelltown, Airds County.
Baptism C of E (It is in Volume 1B :) )
Ann, daughter of John and Mary WIAT,
NSW BDM has : WIAT (notice the spelling) 1824, Line 6804 of Volume 1B
Ann daughter of John and Mary WEAT is noted at the Biological Database of Australia as born 5 August 1824, in the Country of Argyle, and baptised by Rev Thomas REDDALL 8 December 1824 at Campbelltown (St Peters C of E), Airds County.
http://www.bda-online.org.au/ BDA is a non profit project. There is a nominal fee for annual subscriptions. You can search the indexes for free.
JM
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JM
Many thanks for your fantastic explanation, the things I learn on Roots chat are wonderful
After I found this section on the NSW BDM site "Ask our staff if you are having difficulties with your Registry family history searches (current response time is within 10 working days)" last night I sent an email explaining the information on Family Search and what Debra had found about the missing reference, asking about the marriage and the Index.
I thought an email might be best as sometimes when I cannot see the person I am talking to I get confused when trying to explain things over the phone.
When I receive a reply I will update this post,
Cass
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If you get a 'dunno' type reply, please do contact me by PM. Among my 'phone a friend' contacts are older relatives including retired senior officers from NSW BDM. ;D ;D ;D
There's several possibilities for Ann, the 1842 bride for Thomas LEE, and I am sure that several RChat regulars will be actively working through some of those. :)
JM
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JM
The possible spelling of Ann's surname is expanding, Wait, Wiat, Weat, Waite, also White, I am hoping that IF I can get a marriage cert it may give information on both Ann and Thomas parents names . On Eliza and Thomas Marriage, there is no information on Thomas parents.
Also as Thomas made his mark with a X on his will and marriage to Eliza, the odds are he did not know the correct spelling of Ann's surname, maybe the mystery of Ann will remain a mystery
Thank you for your kind offer re PM,
regards
Cass
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If you have access to the NSW State Library, (Macquarie St, Sydney) you could actually go through the film for the LEE = CLARKE marriage (line 198), and look backwards to find line 103 ! It should show who gave consent if either party was under 21, and also it MAY show if either was still under a current sentence (Bond etc) and there's a slight chance it may even show ship of arrival.
JM :)
ADD
do remember to keep in mind the ALLEN=WAITE marriage of 1843. See Merlin's earlier replies # 7 & 8.
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Hi
I am wondering if another pair of eyes might be able to find details on the NSW BDM Index of a marriage which occurred on 27 Jan 1842 between Thomas LEE and Ann WAIT at St James, Sydney NSW.................
http://www.lpi.nsw.gov.au/land_titles/historical_research/parish_maps Search using Cumberland as a key word :)
The NSW County of Cumberland has existed since Governor Phillip's era. It still exists, and is part of the identifying system for anyone with title deeds to real estate in its boundaries. One of the parishes within the County of Cumberland is the parish of St James. St Mary’s Cathedral is located in the civil parish of St James.
From https://www.sydneycatholic.org/works/all_agencies_in_sydney.asp?ID=77
“Prior to March 1856 when Civil Registration began in New South Wales details on certificates were taken from Church registers. A certificate that refers to the "Parish of St James, County of Cumberland" refers to the geographic area of St Mary's in the colonial period, that is, the central Sydney area, not to records that are kept at St James Church or to St Mary's Cathedral.”
From NSW State Archives
https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/collections-and-research/guides-and-indexes/county-parish-maps-guide
From National Library
http://catalogue.nla.gov.au/Record/1153005 Map :)
From Wiki
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumberland_County,_New_South_Wales
"Many of the parishes founded in 1835 kept the name of the district. Others were named after Anglican churches in the same area. This included three of the four small parishes in the Sydney city area; St Philip (named after St.Philip's), St James (named after St. James, and which is still the region name today), St Andrew (named after St. Andrew's). However St Lawrence parish gave its name to the church, rather than the other way around" (JM notes that the civil parish of St Lawrence existed prior to the construction of the Church building on the donated land)
JM
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There are plenty of events missing from the online indexes. If it was the C of E St James I would bet that the number for the entry is 103/1842 V1842104 26C.
Marriages in the index for St James C of E (groom surname) in 1842 - Church Code CJ:
10 Jan LAYZELL 97/1842 V1842104 26C
17 Jan BROOKER 98/1842 V1842104 26C
18 Jan BARR 99/1842 V1842104 26C
19 Jan GRIMSHAW 100/1842 V1842104 26C
20 Jan SPEED 101/1842 V1842104 26C
27 Jan MATTHEWS 102/1842 V1842104 26C
Missing entry 103/1842 V1842104 26C
1 Feb VENOUR 104/1842 V1842104 26C
I would contact the Registry and ask them about that missing entry.
Debra :D
Well 2 years have past since my post, from memory I contacted the Registry and got no where, so this search was put into my to hard folder.
A couple of weeks ago I decided to send a email of to the NSW State Library asking if they would search the microfilm of St James marriages for a record of Thomas Lee / Ann Wait marriage.
I have received a reply with a copy of the entry in the Church register, which includes a portion of the next entry.
Debra you where correct the next entry is a marriage between Thomas Henry Blackburn VERNON and Marion Nathan.
The entry for Thomas Lee and Ann Wait records that they were married by licence, no details of age, parents, arrival. It does record that Ann was of "this Parish a spinster" and Thomas was of the parish of St Bar??? Bachelor. Both have use a X for their signature. My Thomas also used a X on his will and Second Marriage.
Belated thanks to all and also thank you to the staff at the NSW State Library
Cass
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:) Great news, well done.
JM
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:)
Could Thomas have been of St Barnabas parish
https://dictionaryofsydney.org/entry/st_barnabas_anglican_church_broadway
Can you read the clergy's name ?
http://anglicanhistory.org/aus/cci/
JM
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JM
here is the cert , Do you think it is St Barnabas???
Cass
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Ummmmm....
ALLWOOD was definitely the Rev'd at St James at that time. And I have seen that signature so I am confident that's his signature after 'By me' ....
I am actually leaning towards thinking that after he had written something there for Thomas LEE's then usual abode, he realised that Thomas LEE attended his own St James, and so he overwrote the scribble to make it seem to read St James. I realise IF my speculations were right that he ought to have changed the 'e' to 'is' .... and based on that lack of change, (from 'e' to 'is') I am 'not sure'.
I will dig out some paper records from ALLWOOD, but likely not this weekend, may be the weekend after.
JM
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ADD
Ancestry uploaded much of the Anglican Diocese of Sydney's Parish Registers ... they ought to have St James images for that year ...
JM
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Cannot find St James listed on Ancestry's list... (Cannot find Christ Church St Lawrence, or St Philips either ... umm )
So looking at the next marriage ...
Thomas Henry Blackburn VENOUR is findable on Municipal electoral roll 1842, house, Pyrmont (Philips Ward, Sydney)
Now to find LEE ...
JM
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:)
Bourkes Ward :) ... remember that Rev Allwood had both a clerical position and a civil/public position/role at a time when the new Parliament were attempting to introduce civil registrations for bdms... (took another generation for that to occur, and then the debates continued on re marriage registers)...
But perhaps the word Allwood may have originally written was Bourkes
Sydney Municipal Electoral Roll 1842
Thomas LEE, House, Queen's Place
ADD http://adb.anu.edu.au/biography/allwood-robert-1701
fingers crossed I find TWO chaps named Thomas Lee. :)
JM
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Or three ...
1842
Returns of the Colony
Thomas LEE, Assistant Surgeon at the Tarban Creek Asylum annual salary £136/17/6
No listing for a Thomas LEE, 1842, in the Philip Ward
No listing for a Thomas LEE, 1842, in the Macquarie Ward
No listing for a Thomas LEE, 1842, in the Gipps Ward
No listing for a Thomas LEE, 1842, in the Cook Ward
No listing for a Thomas LEE, 1842, in the Brisbane Ward
leaving just the one in the Bourke Ward ... and yet two were married that year ! perhaps one was not yet sufficiently funded to be eligible to enrol to vote.
JM
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attaching snip enlarged section of the register.
JM