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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Tyrone => Topic started by: hiyamarra on Thursday 08 December 16 07:33 GMT (UK)
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Sorry if this has been asked before, but is there somewhere I can search for a Tyrone birth and order a certificate. I am looking for the birth of Richard Clive Graham who was born around 1925. He married in England in 1950 and died in 2006 also in England, His father was William John Graham b1886 in Donaghmore, Tyrone (from 1911 census) his Mother was Aletta Gertrude Katrina Holtzhauzen born 1891 in Christiana, Transvaal, South Africa ( from 1911 census) WJG was in the army, so children were born in different places. Any help would be gratefully received.
Thanks
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Can you post a link to them in census so people can see details such as religion, occupation etc?
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The 1911 census I referred to for the parents is an English census, they are both in Hong Kong where father William is stationed
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The 1911 census I referred to for the parents is an English census, they are both in Hong Kong where father William is stationed
OK, saves looking in Irish census for them.
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Sorry if I'm confusing, but thanks for your interest
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Sorry if this has been asked before, but is there somewhere I can search for a Tyrone birth and order a certificate. I am looking for the birth of Richard Clive Graham who was born around 1925. He married in England in 1950 and died in 2006 also in England, His father was William John Graham b1886 in Donaghmore, Tyrone (from 1911 census) his Mother was Aletta Gertrude Katrina Holtzhauzen born 1891 in Christiana, Transvaal, South Africa ( from 1911 census) WJG was in the army, so children were born in different places. Any help would be gratefully received.
Thanks
Birth records for Co Tyrone in 1925 are not on-line. (NI Births under 100 years are not on-line, likewise marriages 75 years and deaths 50 years). The relevant records are accessible though, just not on-line. They are held by GRONI in Belfast. If you can call in to their offices, you can look the records up on-line yourself and view or order a copy. If you can’t get there, you need to contact them by e-mail or phone and get them to search for the record for you. They will post out a certified copy. (A fee will apply).
https://geni.nidirect.gov.uk
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Many thanks thats very useful
I'm in England so can't call round, but i'll try to find their phone number
Thanks again
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If the father was in the Army, have you looked for a birth in British Nationals Armed Forces Births 1761-2005?
This data set is available on FindMyPast.
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Thanks for your suggestion, I've tried that without any luck
My guess is that his father had left the Army before R.C. was born
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father was William John Graham b1886 in Donaghmore, Tyrone... his Birth should be on line.
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Sorry for my lack of knowledge, I'm not familiar with Irish records
Where do I find that
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https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/civil-search.jsp would be the site
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Thanks
I just tried that but no result
Life in family history is never easy :(
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He may have been registered and/or indexed just as William. There were several William Grahams born in County Tyrone around that era, do you have any indication of the father's forename or occupation? Also, the census you mentioned indicated born c. 1883 in Donaghmore, do you have another source to say c. 1886?
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As Dungannon would be the Registry Office area there are possibles...
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1886/02585/1955338.pdf
is a Wm John
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Birth results for William Graham from 1886 to 1886
Displaying results 1 - 18 of 18.
By SR District/Reg Area
Ballymena1
Ballymoney1
Belfast4
Dublin2
Dundalk1
Dungannon1
Larne2
Lisnaskea1
Lurgan1
Millford1
Naas1
Newry1
Omagh1
Only 1 at correct Reg Office.
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Marriage results for Isabella Archer from 1870 to 1886
Displaying results 1 - 5 of 5.
4 possibles... https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/civil-perform-search.jsp?namefm=Isabella&namel=Archer&location=&yyfrom=1870&yyto=1886&type=M&submit=Search
Marriage results for Graham from 1870 to 1886
Displaying results 1 - 100 of 1803.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01j0k/
but as you see the SR District/Reg Areas of Banbridge Dungannon or Lurgan for Isabella
Dungannon 23
Banbridge 89
Lurgan 51
are all you need to check for matching
Returns Quarter
Returns Volume No
Returns Page No
which is simple enough to do if you just copy/paste ALL the Grahams into a text doc then go Find
Returns Page No 665
Returns Page No 637
Returns Page No 246
THEN
Returns Page No 921
as they are the pages Isabella is on, find the matching pair!!
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Simple enough to find...
Marriage of THOMAS GRAHAM in 1881
Group Registration ID N/R
SR District/Reg Area Dungannon
Returns Year 1881
Returns Quarter 3
Returns Volume No 1
Returns Page No 665
Name ISABELLA ARCHER
Date of Event 1881
Group Registration ID N/R SR District/Reg Area Dungannon
Returns Year 1881
Returns Quarter 3
Returns Volume No 1
Returns Page No 665
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Thanks
I just tried that but no result
Life in family history is never easy :(
Not that difficult.
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As you can see they were in Annaghbeg.
IF Thomas' father turned out to be Jacob, then Jacob's parents are named here on his Pension Application of 2/2/1916 when he would have been 70 y.o.
Am only posting this because he's 'of Annaghbeg'!!
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A 2nd application 10 days later... only of use if Thomas' father was Jacob!!
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I don't wonder that OP is confused by some of the information posted :-\
Hopefully this will be clear, hiyamarra, but don't be afraid to ask questions if there's something you don't understand :)
The townland of Annaghbeg marches Donaghmore (which you mentioned earlier)-
https://www.townlands.ie/tyrone/dungannon-middle/donaghmore/annaghbeg1/
Using GRONI's online database (you can get quite a bit of information from free searches once you have credits), I found Thomas Graham & Isabella Archer were married 29 July 1881 Dungannon district (actual certificate will provide more detail).
Next, still using GRONI's site, I searched for children (father Graham/mother Archer) and got the following results. Note: only first names will appear in GRONI's index and the online civil index but any additional middle names will be shown on the certificates.
1) Mary Graham born 31 Dec.1884
2) William Graham born 25 Sept.1886
3) female born 16 Feb.1889 Susan
4) Elizabeth Graham born 24 Mar.1892
5) Isabella Graham born 16 Aug.1894
6) Margaret Graham born 20 July 1896
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Here's the Graham family in 1911- which shows there were 8 children but only 7 living by 1911-
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Tyrone/Drumaspil/Annaghbeg/864937
The eldest daughter Jane didn't turn up when I searched GRONI's database and I suspect that the deceased child might be the female born 1889.
Here's the Graham family in 1901 mis-transcribed as Greenes- Thomas' father listed as John, 1889 daughter named Susan-
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Tyrone/Drumaspil/Annaghbeg/1735952
The original images very clearly written as Graham-
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai001198137
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Amazing, I can't thank everyone enough. I'm not sure how long it's going to take to absorb all this information, but i'll try
Again, thank you very much and a great Christmas to all.
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PRONI Will Extracts- the Wills will be at PRONI, Belfast
Graham, William John of Annaghbeg Tamnamore Dungannon county Tyrone retired farmer died 13 November 1963 Probate Londonderry 1 January to John Cardwell labourer. Effects £1013.
GRONI shows age 76 so born c1887
Graham James of Annaghbeg Tamnamore county Tyrone farmer died 14 January 1944 Administration Belfast 9 December to Alexander Graham farmer. Effects £484 8s. 7d.
GRONI shows age 62 so born c1882
Grimes otherwise Graham Thomas of Armaghbeg Tamnamore P.O. Moy county Tyrone farmer died 7 August 1938 Probate Londonderry 13 March to Nelson Connelly farmer. Effects £93.
GRONI shows age 85 so born c1853 which fits with 1911 census age. The interesting detail is the surname Grimes!
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Amazing, I can't thank everyone enough. I'm not sure how long it's going to take to absorb all this information, but i'll try
Again, thank you very much and a great Christmas to all.
You're welcome ;D
There's more information if you want me to post it
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Yes please, post anything you think may help, i'll really enjoy going through it
Santa came early this year :D hoho
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Thomas Graham (c1853-7 Aug.1938), son of John, m.(29 July 1881) Isabella Archer
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Tyrone/Drumaspil/Annaghbeg/1735952
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Tyrone/Drumaspil/Annaghbeg/864937
Grimes otherwise Graham Thomas of Armaghbeg Tamnamore P.O. Moy county Tyrone farmer died 7 August 1938 Probate Londonderry 13 March to Nelson Connelly farmer. Effects £93.
1. Jane Graham (27 May 1882) m.(16 Aug.1911) Robert Robinson
Birth (Grahame) https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1882/02786/2022734.pdf
Marriage https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1911/09955/5619517.pdf
1. Robert Robinson (16 Dec.1912)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1912/01476/1601238.pdf
2. Rebecca Elizabeth Robinson (25 Dec.1914 Mullinahill, Armagh dist.)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1915/01389/1571220.pdf
2. Mary Anne Graham (31 Dec.1884-aft.1911)
Birth https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1885/02662/1981213.pdf
3. William John Graham (25 Sept.1886-13 Nov.1963)
Graham, William John of Annaghbeg Tamnamore Dungannon county Tyrone retired farmer died 13 November 1963 Probate Londonderry 1 January to John Cardwell labourer. Effects £1013.
4. Susan Graham (16 Feb.1889) m.(1 Nov.1911) William Hobson
Birth https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1889/02489/1923463.pdf
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Tyrone/Moy/Grange/863021
marriage (note: witnesses are Archers) https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1911/09964/5622836.pdf
1. Violet Elizabeth Hobson (24 Mar.1912)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1912/01495/1607910.pdf
2. William James Hobson (10 Feb.1914)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1914/01425/1584825.pdf
5. Elizabeth Graham (24 Mar.1892) m.(2 Jan.1918) Thomas Willis
Birth https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1892/02351/1878774.pdf
marriage https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1918/09701/5518804.pdf
6. Isabella Graham (16 Aug.1894) m.(5 July 1916) Robert Stretton
Birth https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1894/02254/1847852.pdf
marriage https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1916/09785/5551798.pdf
7. Margaret Graham (20 July 1896) m.(9 July 1919) Thomas James McKittrick
Birth https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1896/02165/1820433.pdf
Marriage https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1919/09681/5511352.pdf
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He may have been registered and/or indexed just as William. There were several William Grahams born in County Tyrone around that era, do you have any indication of the father's forename or occupation? Also, the census you mentioned indicated born c. 1883 in Donaghmore, do you have another source to say c. 1886?
You may have missed my post (above), can you clarify re. William John's year of birth and his father's details?
I have misgivings that the Annaghbeg William John Graham could be the wrong one, note this family in 1911 (edited: previously posted @ reply #22):
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Tyrone/Drumaspil/Annaghbeg/864937/
Edited to add: To make myself clear, it would mean that William John was duplicated in the 1911 Ireland and England censuses, not impossible, but enough grounds to question ...
Edited also to add: There are several trees online indicating that 'your' William John Graham died in Staffordshire, England in 1962 - the usual health warning applies regarding the accuracy of such information - however, there is a reasonable, more local possibility for the death of the Annaghbeg William John Graham already posted @ reply #24, can you clarify any knowledge you have of where 'your' William John Graham died?
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I have 2 references to his age but with huge discrepancies. His marriage record shows him 45 in 1907 so born 1862. The 1911 census gives his age as 28 so born in 1883. What convinces me its the same man is his wife's name in both cases, Aletta Gertrude Katrina Holtzhouzen, that's a petty unusual name. I also have William dying in Wolverhampton, 1st Qtr, 9b, 1162. There is a probate record online to Aletta Gertrude Graham. I also have her death in Wolverhampton 2nd Qtr, 9b, 910.
To be honest I have never searched for William's father yet.
My sticking point at this time is William's son Richard Clive Graham. I'm trying to find his birth and get a copy cert. There is a Richard Clive Graham on Family Search, born in Wolverhampton on 26th May 1926 1st Qtr, Volume 0771B, Page B75A. I have tried to order this cert but am told by GRO it doesn't exist. Sorry but that's about all I have
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My sticking point at this time is William's son Richard Clive Graham. I'm trying to find his birth and get a copy cert. There is a Richard Clive Graham on Family Search, born in Wolverhampton on 26th May 1926 1st Qtr, Volume 0771B, Page B75A. I have tried to order this cert but am told by GRO it doesn't exist. Sorry but that's about all I have
Births in Wolverhampton, in 1926, will be volume 6b?
That reference looks to me like a more modern death registration reference?
ADDED: As i thought! ;D Death in March qtr 2006.
The date of birth is quoted as 26th May 1926
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Didn't get a chance to finish posting earlier but gaffy has already posted some of the same doubts I have about the Annaghbeg family. They were very easy to trace in available online records and there's every indication that William John Graham stayed in Ireland.
This is the 'birth' record you said was on Family Search which KGarrard has pointed out as being a death record-
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QV4Z-738C
Richard Clive Graham could have been born anywhere and the details on the death certificate may not be helpful in trying to trace his family in Ireland.
It's always best to give all the details you already have when asking for help as it saves us wasting time searching for information you already have or tracking the wrong people.
I have 2 references to his age but with huge discrepancies. His marriage record shows him 45 in 1907 so born 1862. The 1911 census gives his age as 28 so born in 1883. What convinces me its the same man is his wife's name in both cases, Aletta Gertrude Katrina Holtzhouzen, that's a petty unusual name. I also have William dying in Wolverhampton, 1st Qtr, 9b, 1162. There is a probate record online to Aletta Gertrude Graham. I also have her death in Wolverhampton 2nd Qtr, 9b, 910.
To be honest I have never searched for William's father yet.
Civil registration of births in Ireland started in 1864 so if William Graham was born before that date there will be no birth certificate. From what you've now posted it looks as though there's a good chance he might have been born before 1864.
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Sorry about that, I hadn't realised it was his death. So we have a date, but not a place. I guess after all the kind help here its still a sticking point.
Many thanks to all who kindly tried to help