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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Gwaelodian on Saturday 25 February 17 17:06 GMT (UK)
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Hi, everyone. I have a sampler made in 1903 by WVL Van Someren. The text says, 'Thou God seest me', then his/ her name, followed by St Andrew's Cottage. I have looked up the name as best I could and see there was a WVL Van Someren in the Royal Fusiliers who was heading a brigade aged 21. I don't know if it the same person, can look no further as I don't belong to the Forces sites. If anyone can shed light on this sampler, I would be most grateful. Thank you. :)
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Possibly your man -
Lieutenant Colonel William Vernon Logan van Someren
JJ
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;D It would be good if it is him ... a DS medal as far as I can see. I was given the sampler some 30 years ago by an elderly lady. I am now wondering if it was a sampler passed down by the family. Thanks.
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Thank you for the help in locating WVL Van Someren. In researching further, I note there is another Van Someren. One is referenced in the Campaign in Tirah (1897-1898). He is listed as a Lt Van Someren, leading the 36th Sikhs. Interestingly, the one located for me by Roots Chat also led the 36th, but in this instance, the Royal Fusiliers. This Van Someren is referenced in a foot note on British Empire history as "The 9th Battalion had been commanded since July 3rd by a very remarkable officer. Lieut. -Colonel W. V. L. van Someren, D.S.O.,
M.C., was reading for the Bar when war broke out, and, joining the
Inns of Court O.T.C. in August, 1914, he went out to France with the
9th Royal Fusiliers as the junior subaltern. He was only twenty -one years of age when he took over the command of the battalion, and must have been one of the youngest, if not actually the youngest, of commanding officers. He retained command of the unit until it was
disbanded in June, 1919, and was in charge of the 36th Brigade for the
two weeks'preceding the Armistice".
The sampler I have was made in 1903. I imagine military men only made these when they were convalescing. If anyone can find out more to help me understand if there are two separate men in my research or one. Also, which war would have been relevant in 1903? It would be so good to have actual birth and death dates. The sampler was given to me by an elderly lady whose married name was Dorothy Spearman. And additional suggestions for research most welcomed! Thanks. :)
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Hi Gwaelodian,
The relevant war to a 1903 sampler would have been the Boer War 1899-1902.
The Van Someren who was a Lt leading the 36th Sikhs & also involved in the Tirah Campaign that you mention was Lt William Weymouth Van Someren.
If you follow this link http://angloboerwar.com/name-search and select surname from the drop down box to search under & enter the surname Van Someren, you will get just the one result, this being the chap mentioned above. There is rather a lot of info about him there! ;D
Hope this helps.
Kind regards
David
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I'd love to see a photo of it if you don't mind posting one. I really like embroidery.
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Very excited! ;D About to follow the link. Thank you!
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Thanks David. As you say, a lot of information. Exciting to read. Does this suggest that the second Van Someran, WVL was maybe a brother or other family member? I know Dorothy, the lady who gave me the sampler, was brought up in India ...she had an Ayah that she spoke of regularly.
I will photograph it and post it on the site asap.
Many thanks again.
N
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how do I upload a photo!
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I know it's not particularly germane to this topic but these are 2 different soldiers.
A Junior Subalton was a 2nd./Lt. & wouldn't be a Battalion CO as the minimum rank was Major & that was only in wartime. The usual rank was Lt. Col.
This is 2nd./Lt. Van Someren in 1915. 9 R. Fus.
Became CO of the 9th. in 1918 having been Temp. CO from the previous year.
Terrific achievement at his age.
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Jim, So nice to put a face to this young man. The sampler must be his work because the names and initials don't tie up for the earlier Soldier. The WVL Van Someren sampler was made in 1903. If this Van Someren was just 21 when he commanded, it suggests he made it as a child, doesn't it? Did boys learn to do that ... or was it something that got done in any long convalescence?
Sounds as if he was likely to have been born around 1898 ... the same age as the friend, Dorothy Spearman (married to John) who gave me the sampler. What interests me, too, is that Dorothy was brought up in India, where the earlier Van Someren appears to have been. She would have been around the same age as the one you sent a photograph of. How I wish I had thought to ask details when she gave it! I had some vague memory she had said it was her brother, but that is a whole lot more checking and I could be mis-remembering - she might have said like a brother(http://). Thank you so much for this. I want to put up a photo of it as requested by another person. I can see now where to do it, so I'll try it here now. Again, many thanks. N
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Jim, Not sure what happened to the photo upload! I'll try again. Kept getting a message it was too big, re scaled and it ended up half a picture!
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So he must have been about 7 when he did this.
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Hi Gwaelodian,
A couple of references (four to be precise) for Lt WVL Van Someran during WW1 in the London Gazette.
In the London Gazette dated 1st December 1914, his promotion? to Temp 2nd Lt in the infantry dated 27th November 1914. Link here: https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/28992/page/10195/data.pdf
In the supplement to the London Gazette dated 18th July 1917, as a Temp Captain in Royal Fusiliers. Link here: https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30188/supplement/7248/data.pdf
In the supplement to the London Gazette dated 18th February 1918, as a Temp Major in Royal Fusiliers he was awarded the DSO (Distinguished Service Order). Link here: https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30530/supplement/2156/data.pdf
In the supplement to the London Gazette dated 18th July 1918, as a Temp Major in Royal Fusiliers, he also has the letters M.C. (Military Cross (If I'm not mistaken!)) after his name! Link here: https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30801/supplement/8443/data.pdf
The mentions July 1917 & July 1918 are for acts of conspicuous gallantry shown by WVL Van Someren.
This link http://www.ww1infantrycos.co.uk/royalfusiliers.html shows the CO's of the various battalions of the Royal Fusiliers & the length of time each man was CO for. It shows the following:
9th (Service) Battalion
Lieutenant-Colonel William Vernon Logan Van Someren 04/07/1917 to 11/11/1918 Remained CO
Lastly a couple of links to some possible biographical data for the Van Someren family here:
http://www.ancientfaces.com/person/robert-garling-van-someren/137710386
http://www.ancientfaces.com/surname/van-someren-family-history/1820794
Parents according to this were Robert Garling Van Someren & Alice (Logan?)
Haven't actually been able to find conclusively any info re birth &/or death dates for WVL Van Someren despite looking, just the above stuff as linked. Hope its of help anyway of least of interest! ;D
Kind regards
David
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:D Thank you, David. So many references! I've just been through them all but haven't yet looked into the family references in detail. It is hard to believe I've had this piece of embroidery in a drawer for more than thirty years without looking at it sensitively. I intend to try to find more about Dorothy Spearman, who gave it to me. The link is interesting. It would be nice to hand on the sampler to a Van Someren family member if I manage to locate one.
So much research for me! Again, grateful thank. Norma
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I find little reference to WVL's life, however there is a probably family member.
Victor Gurner Logan Van Someren (1886-1976).
A zoologist born in Australia & emigrated to Kenya just before the war.
Parents listed as:
Robert Garling Peagan Van Someren
Alice Logan
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Thank you. I'll try to trace this family. Norma :)
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Parents listed as:
Robert Garling Peagan Van Someren
Alice Logan
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:) thanks.
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1901 in Edinburgh Scotland:
Alice L Van Someren 38 Wife of Barrister at Singapore.
Daisy Van Someren 23
Robert Van Someren 20
Alexander Van Someren 18
Noël Van Someren 15
Gurner Van Someren 13
Donald Van Someren 10
Vernon Van Someren 5
Dorothy Van Someren 2
Kate Toft 15
Catherine Stewart 25
Janet Stewart 18
Doesn't really stack up as there's no WVL b.1896.
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Wow!!!! You have found Dorothy for me! Vernon is obviously the soldier William Vernon. I thought she said he was her brother! I've got a photo of Dorothy that I will find in an old album and post. She was a tiny, regal lady, always addressing her GP husband as 'the doctor'. John, her husband, was still working when I first knew them, but during retirement, they spent a fair amount of time at our house. Always very formal, very correct. She always felt she looked like the Queen Mother ... and was certainly tiny like her. Now I see the Scots link, I recall that she was well into Scottish dancing, though she spoke a lot of her 'Ayah', so I assumed she lived in India. I have tears in my eyes as I read this link. I was very fond of Dorothy and John. He was broken when she died, but ultimately found happiness again. I am so grateful to you. Norma
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1901 Scotland Census
U.K. CENSUS COLLECTION
NAME: Vernon Van Someren
BIRTH: abt 1896 - location
RESIDENCE: city, Midlothian
Date is exactly right.
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There must be descendants but they are probably spread all over the world as they seem that sort of family.
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Here is a snap of Dorothy and John with a French boy we had on an exchange. I can't find the better ones of them, so this is a compromise. Again, thank you. PS. Dorothy could summersault and stand on her head almost until she died!
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What a fascinating thread, and how marvellous so much information has been uncovered.
I have a couple of thoughts.....
I have often been transfixed by glorious needlework created by men, very often stitched whilst serving in the armed forces, and not always during a period of convalescence. Military campaigns often involved sea voyages and periods of waiting around.
Also, boys born in outposts of the Empire would have been educated with girls in the schoolroom, until the age of 8 or 9 after which they were often sent "home" to a boarding school in the UK. I suggest it is possible that at times children were encouraged to sit quietly and practise needlework, to rest from the heat.
I think there was speculation that this lovely sampler was created by a seven year old? That would fit if he gave it to Dorothy as a parting gift when he left India.
He may have returned to needlepoint later because a sampler is wonderfully portable, and can be put aside at a moments notice.
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:) Thank you for that observation. Your research is most interesting. Roots Chat has fine researchers that amaze me and bring me close to tears. A few years back when I was writing a book about the family of a miner who lived in my cottage, a researcher found a daughter I had sought for months. It allowed me to complete the family! And now, again, things I simply cannot do to the finite as the researchers do has resulted in a wonderful link to a soldier in the First World War. I intended to see if I can find family members, but someone has suggested the museum could be interested given his status in the service. What do you think? Norma
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As they were in Edinburgh in 1901 would suggest it was made there.
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Yes. I'm sure you are right. The same might apply re the education of girls with boys. I'm not totally sure these children actually went to school, trying to recall what Dorothy spoke of.
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It would have been compulsory to attend school in 1901 but as they appear quite wealthy the children may have been educated privately.
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I seem to recall trips to Balmoral etc. They were a wealthy family. Dorothy had oil paintings with heavy gold frames that I was too young to take an interest in. They lived in a relatively ordinary Victorian house when I knew them.
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Bits gleaned so far.
Robert Garling (father) was born 1852 Prince of Wales Island Bengal.
There is a Gurner RC Van Someren b.1913 Kenya who as probably the son of Gurner Snr. who emigrated to there.
There is also an Eric Logan Van Someren b. 1917 dying in 1992 in Brighton.
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This is so interesting. Did you read the post about male embroidery? A picture of these people grows and grows. My thoughts go back to Dorothy and how I wish I had taken more notice of all she spoke of. Thank you, again. :D
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It seems there was some sort of link to Edinburgh as there are Kenyan Van Someren's graduating there as M.D.'s 1940/50's.
I notice in NZ there is a grave for an Alice Logan Van Someren b. 1893 d.1983 m. David Renfrew White.
Not sure how she fits into this family but there may be descendants in NZ & Kenya.
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There is a Scottish link. My daughter just reminded me Dorothy had her 'own' tartan. Again, many thank. ;D
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With a name like Logan she was probably of Scottish descent so that would make sense.
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That is interesting. I didn't know that. We bought our house near Dorothy and John from a family called Logan Howell. Irrelevant, but interesting to know that Logan is a Scots link ... or is it different in a family name/surname? I thought the Logan Howells were Welsh.
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https://www.kinlochanderson.com/tartan/logan
If she was a member of the Logan Clan she would entitled to a Tartan.
As an aside Gurner & Alexander served in WW1 as Captains in the RAMC having been first pre war Territorials.Both received the Territorial Forces War Medal which is the rarest of the WW1 campaign Medals.
Neither served on the Western Front, Gurner served in E. Africa & Alex in India.
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You really are amazing! More gold stars for you! (or sticky frogs, to be more modern!) A Logan tartan! And she really could still dance the traditional dances. Even as an older lady, she would readily jump to the middle of the floor to demonstrate. They all appear to be very interesting people, many medics amongst them. Thank you again. This is great information that I hope will help others on Roots Chat. :D
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Robert may also have served as a Temp. Capt. in the Uganda Med. Services E.Africa Force.
Noel who may have been Walter Noel (following the tradition of not using first names) may have been an Officer in the RAF having first been a Pte. in the Inns of Court Officer Training Corps.
He gives what appears to be his mother's address.
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Well, well, well it looks like WVL was also at the Inns of court OTC. Attested 1/10/14 (9/RF) & became a Cpl. the following month. Apparently also received the Croix D Guarre from the Belgians, gives the same address as Walter Noel who went into the RFC 1917.
WVL is listed in brackets as now in Straits Settlements, so went back to Singapore after the war.
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How on earth do you find all this stuff! All so interesting, too. I'm determined to locate Dorothy and John's immediate neighbour from the time we knew them. I believe I have a telephone number. I'll get back with any more snippets if I can. Thanks.
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Alice (mother) died in 1951 in Devon
WVL's older brother Alex died in 1959 in Sussex.
A few marriages:
Daisy 1904 = William Hamilton Simpson. Newington.
Robert 1908 = Mary Cunningham. Newington.
Victor Gurner 1912 = Eliz. Cunningham. St. Giles.
Alex. 1914 = Mary Waugh. St. Andrew's Edin.
All Scotland.
In 1930 Victor & Robert owned houses next door to each other at 32 & 33 Vernon Rd. Liberton Edin.
Whether they actually lived there is another matter.
Strange I can't see any births from any of these marriages. Haven't looked at Daisy.
I'm pretty sure Victor went back to Africa & had children there.
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David, I am going to put all this into a narrative that can accompany the sampler. You are so diligent. I am grateful. :)
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This morning, I spoke with the friend who used to live next door to Dorothy - we haven't been in touch for years. She confirms that Dorothy lived in India as a young child and spoke constantly of it. I wonder if the younger children were sent there even though the family seems to have stayed in Scotland and elsewhere. My friend tells me that once she gave bed and breakfast to the naturalist brother when he came over from Kenya. She knew little more, other than saying the family were all very much 'upper crust' and mixed with very few in the village. She says that Dorothy met John in India. Norma
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The naturalist brother would be Gurner.
As Dorothy was only 2 in 1901 & looks like they came to Scotland from Singapore would indicate the family went to India after 1901 & before 1911 as they are not on the census at that time.
It also looks like some of the older children stayed in Edinburgh as per the marriages.
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Yes. I was wondering if the younger children were sent to relatives. Dad might have had parents or family to take the little ones.
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I would say that mother went too.
The passenger lists (from S. Africa) of 1936 show Robert an MD & wife Joan going to 33 Mount Vernon Rd. Edin. which is the house owned by his father Robert as per the 1930 property lists as shown previously.
They return in 1954 with 2 offspring Frances & Ian going to Paygate cottage Burwash Sussex.
So there are definitely descendants out there.
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Interesting. I'm going to google street view to see if the house is still there. You are a magnificent researcher!
I've got Dorothy's Christening Mug, handed to my own daughter, Deborah. Made by RH Goss. I'll photograph it for the page. Thanks, again. :D
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Looks like all modern development around 33. Lots of parks around.
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Same problem with Hillside in
Edinburgh Bournemouth.
A few outgoing.
1914 Dr. Robert (son) + wife & 2 children to E. Africa.
1919 Robert (father) Solicitor aged 68 to Malaya.
1920 & 22 Robert (son) from Hillside Edin. to Uganda with wife + 1 child.
1932 Robert (g/son) from 33 Mount Vernon Rd. Edin. to E. Africa.
1933 Victor Gurner from 32 mount Vernon Rd. to E. Africa with wife + 2 children.
1953 Richard (son of Victor I think) Surgeon from 4 Park Rd. Edin. to Kenya with wife + 3 children
There are other trips back & forth up to the mid 50's involving different family members.
A short bio. re Victor gives an idea about the movement of the family.
Dr V. G. L. van Someren was the fourth son of R. G. van Someren, a doyen of the
Singapore bar. He was born on 6 October 1886 in Melbourne, Australia, where his
parents spent leaves of absence. He became one of the most distinguished of the many
students of African birds, dying in Kenya on 24 July 1976.
His early childhood was spent in Malaysia, but later he moved with his mother and three
elder brothers to Scotland. He was educated at George Watson’s College and the University
of Edinburgh, graduating in medicine and dental surgery. In 1911 he was appointed a
government medical officer in British East Africa (now Kenya). He was already interested
in African birds, since his brother Dr R. A. L. van Someren, of the Uganda Medical
Service, had started collecting in 1906.
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What took them all to Africa, I wonder. I need to look at dates more carefully. There seem to be many Van Someran's there. Was it opportunity that they sought or moving to a family grouping? All high achievers. I realise how little I know about the British in Africa and India, for that matter. Again, thank you for interesting finds. There must be a story in this somewhere! Norma
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One story is that brother Claud AKA Donald died 21/3/1918 in France while serving as a 2/Lt. in 6/Batt. MGC. This was the Battle of St. Quintin (21-23/3/1918).
Effects go to his mother at Hillside Bournemouth ( not Scotland as I said earlier) no mention of father except to say Alice was his wife. I'm getting the impression they may have separated but could be wrong.
Claud Donald in commemorated on the Arras Memorial so has no known grave. His address was given as Malaya so probably with his father.
Victor Gurner & Robert A L & Walter Noel were all in E. Africa + their descendants.
They had houses next door to one another in Edinburgh & visited there as did their sons as well as visiting their mother.
Brother Noel the WW1 pilot was a bird collector like his brothers. He died in 1921 in Tanzania, he was also a hunter & sent many skins to his 2 brothers. killed by a buffalo. You might call that payback.
WVL was last seen going to Singapore post WW1.
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Are you an historian? You seem to know where to look for all this family history. Sad that there is no more about WVL after setting off to Singapore. Do you think the movement is because they are a military family? If Dorothy met John in India, is that likely to have been as war participants? I know that John, and his father before him, were doctors.
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From a book, An Affair with Africa.
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Also Victor Gurner was a very good illustrator & did around 2000 illustrations mainly of birds I should think.
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Hi Gwaelodian,
She says that Dorothy met John in India.
Dorothy may have met her husband John in India but it appears they married in England, here's the marriage record from freeBMD:
Alice D L Van Sommeren to John B Spearman
Sept Qtr 1937, Tavistock Registration District
Volume 5b Page 986
Tavistock Reg Dist spans the county border of Devon & Cornwall.
It would seem that Dorothy's full name was Alice Dorothy Logan? Van Someren
Hope this helps.
Kind regards
David
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yes!
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It's a pity the most decorated one of them all is the least known about.
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Thank you David. Strange that Dorothy spoke little of herself and family. I think John must have been serving as an MD. He also came from a family of doctors and had many old photographs. I wonder what became of them. Sad that as a young woman, I took so little real notice of what the two of them spoke of. I know there was a daughter who predeceased John and maybe Dorothy. A friend from the Melbourne area is now looking for family at his end. A haunting story around the embroidery of a seven year old boy. Again, my thanks. Norma
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There's this snippet from the Kenya Probate Register which indicates there are still Van Someren's in Kenya.
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You have eyes everywhere! Impressed! Gurner ... the naturalist's name. :)
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attachment re India wouldn't open. not sure if i sent it or it didn't leave the computer
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David, I imagine you have researched the archives at Kew. A reference attached re WVL. Norma(http://)
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A few more as recently as 2014.
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WVL's MIC
By the way who's David ?
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Seems there must be ancestors in Edinburgh. We are finding no more about WVL. I have come across references to him in books but they are not all on line. Nothing new. All similar to this paragraph:
208 ROYAL FUSILIERS IN THE GREAT WAR
The 9th Battalion had been commanded since July 3rd by a very
remarkable officer. Lieut. -Colonel W. V. L. van Someren, D.S.O.,
M.C., was reading for the Bar when war broke out, and, joining the
Inns of Court O.T.C. in August, 19T4, he went out to France with the
9th Royal Fusiliers as the junior subaltern. He was only twenty -one
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interesting indeed. A London address.
Who is David? Some of the replies are signed David! Thanks for posting this.
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Looks like his Muswell Hill home is still there somewhere;
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01jll/
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We lived there in 1961-2! We had the attic flat of one of those very houses! I can't remember the number!
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If I may join in ..... for WVL look at the following links; the first has his death
WVL’s death in Penang is reported in
http://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/straitstimes19240508-1.2.59.aspx
and funeral
http://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/straitstimes19240509-1.2.58.aspx
John (in Singapore)
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John, Many thanks. It was a great surprise to see this missing information. I am still searching for a Van Someran to return the sampler. So far, no luck. If you have anything that might help, please let me know. The sampler needs to be back with the family, if possible.
Norma
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Would like to request source of the photo attached. Need to contact the Owner as we would like to use this photo in an upcoming publication
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I am the daughter of Dorothy Van Someren and John Spearman. I have been researching my Van Someren uncles who died in the First World War. I found a photo posted by Gwalodien of my parents.
Would love further information and to get in touch.
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Thank you David. Strange that Dorothy spoke little of herself and family. I think John must have been serving as an MD. He also came from a family of doctors and had many old photographs. I wonder what became of them. Sad that as a young woman, I took so little real notice of what the two of them spoke of. I know there was a daughter who predeceased John and maybe Dorothy. A friend from the Melbourne area is now looking for family at his end. A haunting story around the embroidery of a seven year old boy. Again, my thanks. Norma
I am the daughter of John and Dorothy and am very much still alive. My father died in 1994 and my mother in 1985. I would love to get in on all this chat but am brand new to the site and not finding it easy to use!
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I have a photo of my van someren Dad and Grandad in Kenya in the late 1940’s alongside a cousin John, wife Dorothy and daughter Heather. Is there a connection here?
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I have a photo of my van someren Dad and Grandad in Kenya in the late 1940’s alongside a cousin John, wife Dorothy and daughter Heather. Is there a connection here?
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Dear beccavan
I am John and Dorothy’s daughter. My uncle, Gurner van Someren was in Kenya as was his brother Bee.
I know that I have 2 cousins in Kenya, Ian and Noel Van Someren, but sadly have lost touch with them.
I also remember that Gurner had a daughter Kathleen.
I now live in Hampshire, UK.
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Looks like all modern development around 33. Lots of parks around.
Just to say, the house numbers in Mount Vernon Road have changed since the Van Somerens lived here and numbers 32 and 33 are now numbers 59 and 61. At the time they were here there were no buildings on the other side of the road and the houses were numbered sequentially. The numbering changed once homes were built on the opposite side.
I live in the house bought by Victor Gurner Logan Van Someren in 1926 and I've been researching the previous owners. He paid £1,475 for it. And as you probably already know. his brother Robert bought the house next door. Hope this has been of interest.