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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Topic started by: gedb2b on Wednesday 15 March 17 11:39 GMT (UK)
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During some recent searches in Ireland I came across an extremely detailed obituary for Honoria Morahan who was born in Co Mayo around 1866 and died in Castlebar March 1930 but one part of it has me rather confused. It states that “Deceased had come of a family stock whose name figured prominently for generations in the struggles of our beloved country. She was acquainted with sacrifice in her young days and did not afterwards shrink when as a wife and mother, she was called upon to endure further suffering and persecution for “Dark Rosaleen””
Assuming this is referring to the poem “Dark Rosaleen” I am struggling to understand how a young woman from Co Mayo is suffering persecution for a poem, albeit a very controversial poem, that was written over twenty years before she was born. I have read the translation many times and also read of the theories and explanations that go with it, but cannot see a link, I assume there must be something, possibly family or something similar, but at the moment the reason is bypassing me and I am hoping that someone may be able to point out what I am missing.
GedB
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I read it as,
Dark Rosaleen is Ireland, she suffered for Ireland. It's right there in the obit
“Deceased had come of a family stock whose name figured prominently for generations in the struggles of our beloved country."
Her father, brothers, sons and probably some of the women as well were involved in the struggle for Ireland's freedom.
Have you looked to see if any of her sons or daughters were involved in the War of Independence or the Civil War. Were any of the earlier generations deported or imprisoned.
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I'd agree with Sinann
Also to add the original poem by Hugh the Red O'Donnell (1572-1602) dates from far earlier than you think ;)
It was translated not long before she was born by James Clarence Mangan (1803-1849)
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Thank you both, I think that I was looking for something deeper and as I said the obvious was going straight past me. I haven't searched the family to far as yet because a first view gives me many people called Michael, the fathers of both Honoria and her husband were named Michael Morahan so it is deep breath time before going to deep
Thank you - GedB
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There's a record of a John Morahan here
http://census.militaryarchives.ie/results.php?firstname=john&lastname=morahan&age=&location=&button=Submit
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There's a record of a John Morahan here
http://census.militaryarchives.ie/results.php?firstname=john&lastname=morahan&age=&location=&button=Submit
He has the same address as the marriage so probably related
The marriage
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1888/10760/5924268b.pdf
On Honoria's death cert her daughter is Bridget
There is a Rose Annie born to to a possible couple in Dec 1901 address is Castle Street so this is them in 1901 before her birth. Name spelt with a g in both cases.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Mayo/Castlebar_Urban/Castle_Street/1584157/
You may know if this is the correct family or not.
The big problem with this family will be separating out the two fathers, both Michael, same occupation, same address.
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Patrick and Honoria in 1911 census:
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Mayo/Castlebar_Urban/Gurteendrunagh__Spencer_Street_/716743/
It includes Rose Clarke,a niece.
In the 1901 census there is a Morahan family living with Clarke in-laws
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Mayo/Cloonkeen/Cloondeash/1584810/
Is this the same extended family...with mother-in-law Celia.
So are Laurence and Rose Morahan Clarke siblings of Patrick?
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There is a record of
Catherine Morahan of Mount Deasy DOB 27-Jun-1866
Father Michael Morahan Mother Celia Walsh
and
Rose Moraghan DOB 18-Jul-1871
Cloondeash Co. Mayo
Father Michael Moraghan Mother Celia Walsh
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Thank you familyroutes John is pretty surely a member of the family as Mount Daisy is the main homestead for them but where he fits in is still to be sorted, plus if you look at the birth record for Laurence his mother is shown as Allice Walsh but on all other records she is Cecilia or Celia, a real mixture
Sinann you have hit the nail right on the head with the two Michaels, the only possible saving grave is that there seems to be a few years separating their ages, to complicate matters further though I have several records from the Castlebar area where a Morahan (of various spellings) has married a Morahan (of various spellings), there is also at least one more Michael about and we even have different spellings for the same person on the one marriage certificate, so whichever way we turn this is going to be challenging, interesting but challenging.
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MIcheal Morahan
https://books.google.ie/books?id=FRNpn4qJELQC&pg=PA326&lpg=PA326&dq=morahan+mount+daisy&source=bl&ots=RU5euVfD_A&sig=A5t1CVzULscMgedAAzuoUVDJcjs&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjjpICLndvSAhWMKsAKHas6CbEQ6AEIGjAA#v=onepage&q=morahan%20mount%20daisy&f=false
If you look at the other offences on these pages they seem to be connected to the Fenian movement.
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Haven't found Honoria yet but there is a Michael Moroughan and Mary Moroughan Mount Daisey and a Michael Moroughan and Celice Walsh Mount Daisey having children in mid 1860s, at least both women aren't called Mary :D
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I think it might be the Michael & Mary link for her parents because one of her daughters marries into the Michael & Cecilia family - GedB
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There is something else I am missing here that you might be able to help me with, in the obituary for Honoria it states that she died eight years after the death of her husband Patrick which would make it 1922, I can find nothing in the Castlebar district for his death and with the links to the independence movement I am beginning to wonder if he died elsewhere - GedB
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http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~deesegenes/ball.htm
Two Bridget's from this site:
1864 Bridget to Michael MAROUGHAN and Celue WALSH May 13 Mount Daisy
1866Bridget to Michael MOROUGHAN and Mary MOROUGHAN January 11 Mount Daisy
Celia is recorded with her maiden name so is Mary nee Moroughan...?
There seem to be a few Morahans married to Morahans.
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There is something else I am missing here that you might be able to help me with, in the obituary for Honoria it states that she died eight years after the death of her husband Patrick which would make it 1922, I can find nothing in the Castlebar district for his death and with the links to the independence movement I am beginning to wonder if he died elsewhere - GedB
Just had a quick look but didn't see him, it could be the period when he died, 1921 1922 was the end of the War of Independence than the Civil War, his death may not have been registered in the confusions of the time.
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Not sure if you have the family in 1901 but here you are
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Mayo/Castlebar_Urban/Castle_Street/1584157/
Honoria is 35 yrs then.
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Rather than scrolling through the parish register I though it should be possible to find her baptism using the free days on Find My Past but I'm still having no luck.
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Would 1872 be too late?
http://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000631984#page/283/mode/1up
No.68 is Anne Moroughan - thinking of Hanoria rather than Honoria ??? But I can't see a corresponding birth record :-\
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Considering that Honoria was 50 in 1911, 35 in 1901 and 65 in 1930 her birth date is a movable feast!
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Honoria was "full age" when she married in 1888...if she was born in 1872 that would have made her 16.
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I think the 1911 age is a bit of a red rag, the other two just about match up and do seem to confirm a mid 1860s birth but even with her fathers name thrown into the search there doesn't seem to be anything obvious - GedB
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If you are right with that 1866 marriage familyroutes then that is at least three generations of Morahan to Morahan (with various spellings) marriages from the small hamlet of Mount Daisy so I think the only way I am going to sort it is to give the name it's own tree and see where it leads me
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The 1872 Anne then is perhaps another child to the family.
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She could be a sister of either Honoria or Patrick as both their fathers were called Michael so I need to sit and make that tree and see what it brings - GedB
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Just give you the names I found earlier while looking for Honoria
To Michael and Mary
Patt 1862
Thomas (I think) 1863
Bridget 1965
Martin 1867
Michael and Celia
Thomas 1860
Ellen 1862
Bridget 1864
Catherine 1865
Laurence 1867
I only scribbled them down so need checking.
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She could be a sister of either Honoria or Patrick as both their fathers were called Michael so I need to sit and make that tree and see what it brings - GedB
r
But I thought the mothers had different names ??? I am only looking at children born to Michael and Mary.
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Just give you the names I found earlier while looking for Honoria
To Michael and Mary
Patt 1862
Thomas (I think) 1863
Bridget 1965
Martin 1867
Besides the Anne I linked to earlier, I found
Maria 14 September 1867 - could that be Martin mentioned above?
John 17 May 1870
With parents Michael and Mary.
It could be that there are more than 2 Michael and Mary couples plus the Michael and Celia, I suppose.
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I only looked in the 60s
I was looking for Mount Daisy
it's in the townland of Cloondeash
http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V2,513253,786872,10,7
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Yes, that's what I did Sinann.
As Anne, baptised 1872 was dismissed as too young, I thought I would look for the time frame suggested by the censuses.
Griffiths shows a Michael and a Thomas in Cloondeash and either the same Thomas or another nearby in Derrinlevaun.
http://www.failteromhat.com/griffiths/mayo/ballyhean.htm
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I am sure I will get this wrong somewhere and I stand to be corrected but I will give it a try.
Laurence Moraghan born 1867 the son of Michael Moraghan & Cecilia Walsh is the father of Lawrence Moraghan born 1896 who married Bridget Julia Morahan in 1920 (I have certificate copies for all this)
Bridget Julia Morahan born 1891 was the daughter of Patrick Morahan born 1862 the son of Michael Morahan & Mary Morahan & Honoria Morahan born about 1866 the daughter of Michael Morahan and an unknown mother (again certificate copies for this)
I am not sure where this is taking me other than into more confusion because I can see three lines going back to two people, for me this really needs drawing out so that is anything else I had planned for tomorrow written off. - GedB
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Yes, please write it down :)
I am sorry, I was thinking that Honoria was the daughter of Michael and Mary ::)
So is she more likely to be the daughter of Michael and Celia?
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I think it might be the Michael & Mary link for her parents because one of her daughters marries into the Michael & Cecilia family - GedB
This is where I got the idea that Honoria was the daughter of Mary.
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I wonder if Honoria could be her second name and she was baptised by her first and than didn't use it. It's bugging me that we can't find her baptism.
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To try and put a time frame on the families
Michael and Cecilia married in Feb 1856
http://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000631983#page/48/mode/1up
Michael and Mary married in June 1861
http://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000631983#page/61/mode/1up
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If, as in reply 31's quote Michael and Mary are Honoria's parents then this is likely to be a daughter - Maria born September 1867 - so in that time frame.
http://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000631984#page/212/mode/1up
I think it is Maria and not Martin.
I cannot see though, a civil birth ???
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Transcribed as Stoner
Honor Moroughan 31 March 1860 to Michael Moroughan and Cecilia Walsh (born 28th)
http://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000631984#page/79/mode/1up
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That's very promising Sinann. :)
GedB,
Could the information re the daughter who marries into the Michael / Celia marriage be wrong- perhaps two people with the same name?
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Even with the infamous roll of wallpaper, a good pencil sharpener and that superb discovery from Sinann I still ended up with three lines going back towards two points so I think you may have a good point heywood I must have a mistranscription or I am reading something wrong somewhere so it is time to clear the mind and start all over again - GedB
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Who is the daughter that marries into the family?
You do get complex connections sometimes.
I have a couple where the niece of one marries the nephew of the other.
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All of the following details are taken from certificate copies, one hiccup along the way was for the mother of Lawrence Moraghan (senior) who was named on various documents as Celia, Cecilia & Allice but each time her family name was shown as Walsh so I am confident we have the right family. It is the three direct links back to Michael Morahan from Mount Daisy where the confusion starts and I think the statement on your last post could be correct, so I really need now to confirm the families of the two known Michaels.
Track 1
Bridget Julia Morahan was born 18th January 1891 the daughter of Patrick Morahan from Castle Street Castlebar and Honoria Morahan formerly Morahan.
Patrick Morahan the son of Michael Morahan a landholder from Mount Daisy married Honoria Morahan the daughter of Michael Morahan a landholder from Mount Daisy on 15th January 1888 both were recorded as being of full age.
Track 2
Laurence Morahan was born 8th February 1896 the son of Laurence Morahan from Mount Daisy and Mary Ellen Morahan formerly Broderick
Laurence Morahan the son of Michael Moraghan a landholder from Mount Daisy married Mary Ellen Broderick the daughter of Pat Broderick a landholder from Mount Daisy on 26th March 1893 both were recorded as being of full age
The Joining
Lawrence Moraghan aged 25 a widower and son of Lawrence Morahan a farmer from Mount Gordon married Bridget Morahan aged 25 a spinster and daughter of Patrick Morahan a publican from Castlebar on 20th November 1920 the witnesses were named as Rose Morahan and Michael Morahan
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Okay,
The marriage
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1921/09228/5338975.pdf
You know Bridget's parents are Honoria and Patrick because Honoria is a widow of a Publican when she died.
Her grandparents are Michael Morahan and Celcile Walsh and Michael Morahan and ......
Are we happy Patrick is Mary and Michael's son born 1862?
Need to have a look at Lawrence.
I'm not doubting you, it's just easier to make sense of the connections by looking them up yourself.
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https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1893/10601/5861948.pdf
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1921/09228/5338975.pdf
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1896/02179/1824920.pdf
Lawrence married to Mary Ellen has to be a brother of either Honoria or Patrick as all three have father Michael Mount Daisy.
That makes Lawerence (widower) and Bridget first cousins.
First cousins do marry but ideally you need to see the church record for a dispensation.
(I have present day married first cousins on a branch of my tree.)
The only other possibility is Lawrence is not Lawrence and Mary Ellen's son, but some other Lawerence Morahan from a different area, again you would need the church record for his mother's name.
What might help is his first marriage as he may have been living at home, we need the death of his first wife listed as a wife of an asylum attendant to get started.
Edited to add: Reading over the thread I see that Lawrence is brother to Honoria.
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That was easy,
Kate died 1920
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1920/05115/4406593.pdf
Will their marriage be as easy?
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1916
Looks like him even though he's not an asylum attendant yet
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1916/09797/5556879.pdf
Address Mount Daisy so back to Bridget's cousin again.
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You have been quicker off the mark than me, yes I can see from my notes that Patt born 1862 is the son of Michael & Mary (married 14th July 1861) and Honor born 1860 is the daughter of Michael & Cecilia (married 1st Feb 1856) the rest is now fairly straightforward and matches the listing on my family tree, so it did end up with three leads going back to two points, thank you very much Sinann it has been a very worthwhile struggle. - GedB
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Well done Sinann and congratulations to you and GedB - a great result!
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An interesting one sure enough, hope it's all correct.
Wonder if the two Michaels are cousins? Could be they are named after the same grandfather.