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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Lancashire => England => Lancashire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: daisynook on Saturday 05 August 17 10:35 BST (UK)
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Could anyone help me find John Bartholomew McMullen (names spelt with various versions) b.1839 or 1842 in Manchester. I can find him on 1871 and 1881 with wife Teresa (who had died by 1891) and Mary Ann. He had a son with the same name John Bartholomew and possibly a grandson with same name. I can't find them on 1891 Census.
Any help appreciated.
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It always helps us if you give details of the census where you have found him even if it is only the reference ;) The details would be good too ;D
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Sorry, not sure about this:
RG10/4009/138 p46 1871 Census
RG12/3281/16 p 25 1881 Census
Born in Ireland, parents Patrick Joseph McMullen and Sarah Ann Walsh. Do you need more information?
Hope that's right.
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I can't find John and Teresa in 1871/1881 - what spelling is the surname under on those records please?
Was he born Manchester or Ireland?
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Think I've found something on a family tree
1891 74 Guide? Lane Audenshaw Ashton under Lyne
Bartholomew McMullen 43 engineers tool fitter born Atlantic Ocean
Mary A wife 39 born Oldham
Bartholomew son 17 apprentice born Belfast
Thomas son 6 born Oldham
Alice daughter under 1 born Oldham
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1871
Bartholomew McMullan 29 Not Known
Teresa McMullan 24 Not Known
William J 5 Pendleton (?) Lancashire
Bartholomew 11 months Pendleton (?) Lancashire
Mary Kelton Lodger 24 bn Ireland
John Kelton Son 4 bn Ireland
Patrick Kelton 3 mths bn Salford
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Poss birth reg for son
MCMULLIN, BARTHOLOMEW mmn MCGUIGGIN
1870 March Quarter
MANCHESTER reg dist Volume 08D Page 261
MCMULLEN, WILLIAM JAMES mmn MCGUIGAN
1865 Dec Quarter
SALFORD reg dist Volume 08D Page 9
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Sorry, not sure about this:
RG10/4009/138 p46 1871 Census
RG12/3281/16 p 25 1881 Census
Born in Ireland, parents Patrick Joseph McMullen and Sarah Ann Walsh. Do you need more information?
Hope that's right.
That was a great help, thank you.
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Thank you too Rosie99 - yes its the right family. There is some dispute as to whether he was born in England or Ireland. Family stories have it he was born at sea, birth records showing Atlantic Ocean.
What I'm trying to establish is whether there was also a grandson with the same name.
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1881
RG11/ Piece 3962 Folio 18 Page 29
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q27P-HQ4S
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That shows a grand son Bartholomew age 11 but grand dad Bartholomew is only 34 there so that doesn't compute age wise :-\
Baptism for son Bartholomew - parents Bartholomew and Teresa - was 1 Jun 1873 Antrim.
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Baptism for son Bartholomew - parents Bartholomew and Teresa - was 1 Jun 1873 Antrim.
But the 1871 has 11 month old Bartholomew bn Lancashire :-\
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It's all a bit tangled isn't it :-\
As an interesting aside Polly 14 on the 1881 was a mouse trap maker :D
Could there be two different families do you think?
Mary A in 1881 is sister in law not wife so maybe they were her children. Is that the same Mary A he married ???
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Yes, as you say I'm wondering if I have a different branch of the family tied up together. Trouble is there are so many people with the same names Mary Ann etc. I think its too complicated now to work it out!
Now looking at 1901 Census and found them still living in Hardman Street
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This could be death for Teresa
Dec 1879 Manchester
McMullen Theresa age 32
which ties in with her being 24 on the 1871 census
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Yes, that's the right death record for Teresa. I have also just found https://familysearch.org/search/record/results?count=20&query=%2Bgivenname%3ATeresa~%20%2Bsurname%3AMcGuigan~%20%2Bbirth_place%3AIreland~%20%2Bbirth_year%3A1840-1920~%20%2Bresidence_place%3AManchester~%20%2Bspouse_givenname%3AJames~%20%2Bspouse_surname%3AMcGuigan~&collection_id=1493747
I believe this is her and as you will see she had a sister Mary Ann!!
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In case you don't have them
20 Aug 1864 Cathedral Church of St John the Evangelist, Salford, Lancashire
Bartholomaeum McMullen -
Teresam McGuigan -
Groom's Parents: Patritii McMullen & Sarae McMullen
Bride's Parents: Joannis McGuigan & Mariae McGuigan
Witnesses Daniele Davies, ex Pendleton; Anna Duggan, ex Pendleton
10 Sep 1865 Cathedral Church of St John the Evangelist, Salford, Lancashire, England
Gulielmus Jacobus McMullen - filius Bartholomei McMullen & Teresae (formerly McGuigan)
Born 5 Sep 1865
Abode Pendleton
Godparents Jacobus Maguire; Alicia McCann
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The 1901 had a daughter Emily Ann age 8 and her birth record Jun 1892 Ashton under Lyne has mothers maiden name Blake :-X
Soooooo sorry have to leave it there dinner is calling :)
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Alice, born Oldham, also has a mother with maiden name Blake. 1891 census.
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1901 also shows son Thomas Freel, 17 yrs, he also a mother Blake.
1891 he is just Thomas.
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Thank you all again and thank you heywood for joining in. I obviously had the wrong Teresa for parents etc. I'll delete them!
I did have a year for JB and Teresa's marriage but not like the one you sent with the latin or Irish names, so thank you for that.
What is a surprise is the birth record for Emily Ann. I did have Emily Ann in the tree as a daughter of Mary Ann and Thomas Freel (her previous husband although I can't find a marriage for them) but I thought she was with Freel before JB so that would probably be right if Emily Ann was 8 in 1901 but I can't work out where the name Blake fits in! ::)
More information makes for more puzzles.
Hope you had an enjoyable dinner :)
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It looks like there was a previous wife and mother called Blake. I have a Thomas Freel b.1833 whose mother was Mary Ann Wilson-McMullen. Maybe John Thomas Freel had another wife before Mary Ann. He would be grandchild to JB McMullen.
This just gets more complicated by the minute!
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Bartholomew's marriage and the christening came from LancashireOPC
(Free to search) http://www.lan-opc.org.uk/Search/indexp.html
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Thanks Rosie99, I haven't come across this site before.
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It is excellent for Lancashire but is ongoing (done by volunteers) I gather from a friend who transcribes that they are trying to get Catholic records on as well
ADDED
This is also good for registration details not given on freebmd
http://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk/
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Thanks again Rosie99 for the link, every site contributes. I will be interested in the Catholic records too, I have quite a lot of Irish people in my Tree.
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It does seem complicated and I am doubting myself even though it looks right!
1881 4080/12/17
Thomas Freel 33 yrs
Mary Ann Freel 30 yrs
Albert Freel 7 yrs
Annie Freel 1 yr
Mary Freel
Margaret Freel lodger 50 yrs
Annie and baby Mary - both Blake mmn but I can't spot Albert yet.
Marriage 1878 Oldham
Thomas Freel and Mary A Hearne /Whittaker - both options given on Lancs BMD.
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Deaths in Oldham for Mary 1 yr, 1882 and Thomas 34 yrs, 1883
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Thank you heywood. I'm sure that's the right family. I have John Thomas Freel and Mary Ann (who later married JB McMullen) parents with children Albert b.1874, John Thomas b.1884 and Annie B b.1907.
I now see a Blake!! Mary Blake was married to John Thomas Jnr. Now I look at it they had children Albert b.1873, Thomas b.1833, Mary Ann Virginia b.1879 (who became a nun) and Mary b.1881 d.1882. So that clarifies the death of Mary you sent me but I don't know which Thomas died in 1883 sounds like Mary's father. I have 2 John Thomas Freels b.1826, 1884 and 1833 so not sure which is the one who died in 1883.
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Sorry, no they are the Freel family from 1881.
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Yes, as you say I'm wondering if I have a different branch of the family tied up together. Trouble is there are so many people with the same names Mary Ann etc. I think its too complicated now to work it out!
Now looking at 1901 Census and found them still living in Hardman Street
I might have missed something but why do you say, 'still living in Hardman Street'?
Do you have them in Hardman Street at another time?
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1901 Census shows JB and Mary Ann McMullen living in Hardman Street with children Thomas Freel age 17 and Mary Ann McMullen age 8.
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Yes I have that - it was just that you wrote 'still living in Hardman Street' so I thought they were there at another time. I wondered when they there besides 1901.
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While I'm on about John Bartholomew McMullen, I have a record that he or maybe JB Jnr had a criminal record for extortion and shooting someone. Does anyone know where to look to see if I can find out any further information on this?
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Sorry heywood for misleading you!! :-[
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While I'm on about John Bartholomew McMullen, I have a record that he or maybe JB Jnr had a criminal record for extortion and shooting someone. Does anyone know where to look to see if I can find out any further information on this?
Yes, if you have Ancestry, there is just a record that he got 12 months for shooting - 1887, I think it was.
FindMyPast has extracts from newspapers at the time but I can't see the full report. It happened in Bolton.
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Thanks you again heywood. Its interesting finding I have a criminal in the family! I'll have to try finding the actual transcript.
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I have just found a court transcript saying 'Shooting at one Thomas Grundy with intent to cause him grievious bodily harm' 12 months.
:o
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From the newspaper snippet, it would seem that Bartholomew was ' imported labour' during an engineers' strike. There is mention of the strike if you search 'Bolton Enginners' Strike, 1887' or similar.
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Just like to thank everyone who contributed to my questions today. I have advanced a bit more with my research.
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Oldham cemetery records
https://www.oldham.gov.uk/info/200388/cemeteries_graves_and_memorials/641/cemeteries
Show Thomas Hernan, Mary Freel, Thomas Freel and Alice McMullan buried in the same grave in Greenacres Cemetery.
The annotation for Alice, 11/11/1891 is 'stillborn' and address shows Guide Bridge; Oldham. :-\
Baby Thomas Hernan's mother is Blake - Lancashire BMD
And a Thomas Hernan married Mary A Blake 1872 ::)
Birth
1874.Albert Hernan - mother Blake so that is Albert from 1881
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Daisynook, you may be interested in the Catholic Family History Society, especially since you mentioned a nun. It has a branch in North-West England. Catholic Truth Society printed some early parish registers a century ago. Some are on The Genealogist.
Manchester & Lancashire FHS should also be worth a look, although I believe their Irish section is currently not operating.
Lancashire Family History & Heraldry Society has an Irish section which holds regular sessions at the research centre in Oswaldwistle and an annual Irish conference. There's another research centre at Chorley.
Lancashire BMD and Lancashire OPC are invaluable. I check "What's New" on the latter site each week for additions. A member of Lancashire FHHS provides a monthly alert to fellow members of updates on both.
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Manchester Catholic registers is an ongoing project - MLFHS but it is difficult to access the records - the indexes can be useful though.
http://www.mlfhs.org.uk/data/catholic_search.php
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Thanks to Maiden Stone's reminder :)
Those records show Bartholomew as father of John (Joannis) McMullen in 1877. Civil records show that John died in 1879. You may not have this birth/death daisynook.
Also shows Theresia McGuigan as mother.
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Thanks again heywood and Maiden's Stone - I certainly have a lot to look into and think about over the next few days.
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heywood - that last record you sent me showing John Johannis McMullen Jnr do you know if he was born in Ireland? I had his birth as 07 Dec 1874
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John McMullen was born 1877 and died 1879 - St George district, Manchester.
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Thank you heywood - I had been having a dispute with my cousin who had insisted he was born in Ireland!!
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IT seems to be Bartholomew who was born in Belfast c 1870.
I think that should be 1873 according to the Baptism - sorry.
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Thank you heywood. I'm sure that's the right family. I have John Thomas Freel and Mary Ann (who later married JB McMullen) parents with children Albert b.1874, John Thomas b.1884 and Annie B b.1907.
I now see a Blake!! Mary Blake was married to John Thomas Jnr. Now I look at it they had children Albert b.1873, Thomas b.1833, Mary Ann Virginia b.1879 (who became a nun) and Mary b.1881 d.1882. So that clarifies the death of Mary you sent me but I don't know which Thomas died in 1883 sounds like Mary's father. I have 2 John Thomas Freels b.1826, 1884 and 1833 so not sure which is the one who died in 1883.
Sorry, I only just saw the second part of this post.
Thomas Freel died 1883 aged 34 yrs. he was Mary Ann Blake's husband.
In a later post I wrote that Albert was Albert Hernan. She was married before she married Thomas Freel.
Your dates for the children seem a bit mixed up.
Was Mary Ann Virginia the child Annie?
I do not see a birth for M A V in 1879.
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I have John Bartholomew McM Snr b.1839 at Sea, John Bartholomew Jnr b.1874 or thereabouts in Manchester. There are so many people with the same names it gets very confusing.
Also I have managed to get a copy of the newspaper article about JB's conviction in Bolton. Article says at the end he has been committed to Asises so I have no idea where to go from there.
As for the Hernans and Freels, I had assumed that Mary had been married to Hernan previously. The children I have Mary Ann Virginia (the one who became a nun) b.1879 Mary b. 1881 and Emily Ann b.1892 (she must have been Hernan, Blake and McMullen).
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I have been at this all day today and I've had it for tonight. Will resume in the morning!!
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It looks like there was a previous wife and mother called Blake. I have a Thomas Freel b.1833 whose mother was Mary Ann Wilson-McMullen. Maybe John Thomas Freel had another wife before Mary Ann. He would be grandchild to JB McMullen.
This just gets more complicated by the minute!
It is very complicated :)
Just to clarify the above, in 1881 Thomas Freel shows as born Galway 1848.
Children of Mary Ann Blake
See Lancashire BMD site - Oldham shows mother's maiden name
Albert Hernan 1874
Thomas Hernan 1877
Annie Freel 1879
Mary Freel 1881
Thomas Freel 1883
Alice McMullen 1890
Cheshire BMD
Emily Ann McMullen 1892
From these births it looks as though John Bartholomew and Mary Ann Blake got together between 1883-1890
The only child I can see who could be Mary Ann Virginia b 1879 is Annie Freel b 1879.
There is no other child to match. She only appears on 1891 census.
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IT seems to be Bartholomew who was born in Belfast c 1870.
Poss birth reg for son
MCMULLIN, BARTHOLOMEW mmn MCGUIGGIN
1870 March Quarter
MANCHESTER reg dist Volume 08D Page 261
MCMULLEN, WILLIAM JAMES mmn MCGUIGAN
1865 Dec Quarter
SALFORD reg dist Volume 08D Page 9
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Hi Rosie,
Thanks. Yes I found that birth late last night but was too tired by then! I think someone had found a baptism in Belfast for about 1873. I had a look and it is very feint so not sure if that was him.
It is complex. ::)
Heywood
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Hi heywood - I go along with most of what you say and agree that it looks like Sister Mary Ann Virginia Freel was known as Annie. She may have become a Sister of Mercy in which case all nuns in that order have the first names of Sister Mary so her real first name would have been Ann.
As for John Bart Junior:
1871 Census on Family Search shows Son Bartholomew age 0 living in Pendleton also
1871 Census on Ancestry shows him 11 months old.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FPSY-PBR?from=lynx1&treeref=9VT5-LRX shows Son John born in Ireland in 1874
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q27P-HQ4S?from=lynx1&treeref=9VT5-LRX shows Grandson 11yrs which means he would have been born in 1870 in Belfast as you said
I suppose he could have been born in Belfast and come back to Manchester straight away but I can't help thinking there was a Son and a Grandson - who knows!!
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https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q27P-HQ4S?from=lynx1&treeref=9VT5-LRX shows Grandson 11yrs which means he would have been born in 1870 in Belfast as you said
That census also shows James McGuigan as Bartholomews son so the relationships on that census are 'iffy'
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I wonder if James McGuigan in 1881 should be born Belfast as Mary Ann McGuigan - and he is her son.
This might mean that the birthplaces were transposed for him and young Bartholomew and Batholmew's correct place of birth is Manchester.
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Thanks for that thought heywood. I'm fairly sure that when Teresa McGuigan (first wife) died in 1879 that by the time of the next Census 1881 her sister had moved in with JB Snr to look after the children, so the sister-in-law would be right. I'm now contemplating whether JB married Mary Ann MgGuigan and maybe she was the same person Mary Ann Wilson the person he had more children with? I've still not found a marriage for Mary Ann Wilson. I have them on the 1891 Census with Mary Ann called McMullen. Its possibly in Ireland as they seem to have gone back and forth.
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Hello again,
Mary Ann Wilson is new to me - where do you have her?
The 1891, that I have, shows Mary Ann Blake - I have been assuming.
Heywood
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Sorry heywood - Mary Ann Wilson previously Freel, is the woman who lived with (can't find a marriage) after Teresa McGuigan. That is where the people called Freel come with her!! Mary Ann Blake is the maiden name of John Freel Jnr's wife. I know its very confusing!!
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Is this a different person.
What I have is Mary Ann Blake born Oldham married Thomas Hernan; then Thomas Freel; then cohabited with ( no marriage found) Bartholomew McMullen after her husband's and his wife, Teresa McGuigan's death.
Who is John Freel jnr ???
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Yes, you are right, Mary Ann Blake was married to Thomas Hernan in 1872 and also to John Thomas Freel (but I don't know when but think he came second). There is also a Thomas Hernan son b.1884 and has used all names Hernan, Freel, McMullen!! Also daughter Mary Blake b. 1881 died in 1882, I think this Mary was from before mother married.
I find it easier to look at it written down than trying to make sense of it in my mind! Ignore my Thomas Freel Jnr, I was getting my Thomas's and John's mixed up :-[
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I think it is written down in the thread ;)
Mary Ann Blake's first marriages and children's births all seem proper.
It is the relationship with Bartholomew that seems to have no paper evidence.
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Do you have a marriage date for Mary Blake to Freel then?
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It does seem complicated and I am doubting myself even though it looks right!
1881 4080/12/17
Thomas Freel 33 yrs
Mary Ann Freel 30 yrs
Albert Freel 7 yrs
Annie Freel 1 yr
Mary Freel
Margaret Freel lodger 50 yrs
Annie and baby Mary - both Blake mmn but I can't spot Albert yet.
Marriage 1878 Oldham
Thomas Freel and Mary A Hearne /Whittaker - both options given on Lancs BMD.
I posted this earlier. I couldn't understand it at the time but when looking at the Hernans yesterday, I noticed a misspelling in records and I think that 'Hearne' is one also.
Now, not sure where Whittaker comes from at all. Lancashire opc shows a baptism for St Mary's R C, Oldham for a Mary Ann Blake b 1854 , parents Thomas Blake and Sarah Anne Day but oddly her godfather is a Whittaker. It might not be her though!
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Thank you I missed that probably because of the name - where does Whittaker come in. I'll do some more searching!
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There are a couple of Mary Ann Blakes I think and the family I posted with parents names show her as niece ???
There is a baptism 1852 for M A Blake child of Anne Blake
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Don't know if this helps but my cousin tells me the Freels went to Canada and John Thomas Freel died in Old Wentworth, Ontario, Canada. This is why Sister Mary Ann (Annie) his daughter died in a Convent in Chicago, Cook, Illinois although it doesn't look like the son (whose son I'm not sure) Thomas McMullen, Hernan, Freel, didn't go.
I've had a search but there's nothing definite with so many people with the same name again.
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Thomas Freel who married Mary Ann Blake was born in Galway c1848 according to 1881 census.
He died in 1883 and is buried in Greenacres Cemetery.
There is a son, Thomas born 1883.
There is no John Thomas Freel as far as I can see.
There are several published trees which are quite bizarre - all seem to be be published by the same person.
For example,
Birth Galway 1845
1871 - 2 marriages - same date but different people in Wentworth, Ontario
1872- another marriage in Wentworth
1874 birth of a daughter in Massachusetts
1874 birth of Albert in Oldham
1874 birth of a son in Ontario
1880 - as Thomas Freean with family in Chicago.
1881 - Oldham -
I could go on... His death is given as 1897 in Wentworth but there are two sightings in Indiana and Illinois in 1900 and 1910.
Where does your cousin get the information from?
Someone may well have gone to Canada but not this Thomas Freel.
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This might be the son Thomas
Marriage St Stephen, Hulme December 22nd 1906
Thomas Freel 23 yrs Carter 35 Wood Street Father John Freel deceased engineer
Frances Ruth Waterhouse 20 yrs same address father Thomas Waterhouse, Pavior
Witnesses Henry White and Mary Alice Whalen
Your Thomas' father wasThomas of course but I wonder if young Thomas has combined the two names John (from John Bartholomew) and his own surname and used JB's occupation.
That is if this is the right chap of course!
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Yes that is Thomas jnr.
An army record shows his birth as Oldham.
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Yes, this is him, I had the marriage record before and I had noticed that Fathers name was John Freel. JB would have been his grandfather and his son would have been John Thomas Freel husband of Mary Ann Blake so the John Freel on the Register would have been right.
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I doubt that Bartholomew ever called himself Freel - there would be no need to do so.
Thomas would only know B as his father but he obviously retained his own surname.
Bartholomew was also deceased by the time of the marriage.
Family Search has details Annie in the censuses in Illinois and her naturalisation in 1943. I can't download that properly but it does say that she emigrated into Boston in 1883 ??? She would only be 4 yrs so obviously someone took her - a mystery! Maybe there was another Freel family who took her along with them.
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Yes, you are right, it wouldn't have been JB as he was dead by then. It is strange about the Freel family some seemed to go to US and Canada but others stayed at home. Who knows ......
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What do you mean by 'the Freel family'.
There were these three children born to Thomas and Mary Ann
Annie Freel 1879
Mary Freel 1881
Thomas Freel 1883
Annie we have now in Chicago. Mary died and Thomas married in Hulme.
Thomas snr is in Greenacres Cemetery.
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I have another generation of Freels - Thomas Freel b.1884 married Frances Ruth Waterhouse and they had 4 children. I know one of them Harry died in New York and the other 3 are still here. I have a death record for one in 2004 so I'm not too far back now.