RootsChat.Com
General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Jillity on Wednesday 22 November 17 19:25 GMT (UK)
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I have no idea where to post this question so I'll put it on here. I have a photo of a marble bust of one of my ancestors. The bust was made after the man died. What I'm wondering is how did they make the bust? I mean how did they get a good likeness?
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Could a death mask have been made and a bust made from that? :-\
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Perhaps they worked from a photograph,have you dates etc?
Viktoria.
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What date are you talking about?
Maybe he sat for the sculptor before he died.
Depending on the era, maybe photos were used for reference.
If you don't have any photos of your ancestor, how do you know if the bust is a good likeness of him?
I don't know if this was ever done, but I suppose a sculpture could be made using a death mask for reference.
Added: Red notification, but I will post this anyway ;)
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My ancestor died suddenly in 1860. As far as I know there were no photographs and there was no protrait of him. I wonder if they made a clay mask after he died. I can't help wondering how they got the likeness and whether it's a true likeness.
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1860? There may have been contemporay photographs of him. Because none survive today does not mean none were taken.
As to whether or not the likeness is accurate, that is something I can't see how you will never know unless a photograph turns up. A lot of these busts have a sameness about them, and there was probably an attempt to depict the sitter in a flattering way. I don't think you ever see any 'warts and all' marble busts from that era.
Have you checked sources such as newspapers in case there is an image of him? If he was a man of importance there may be records of him?
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I've checked everywhere I can think of to find an image of him. I feel there must be an image somewhere but no-one has put it online. He was a man of a certain importance, which is why the bust was made of him. He was also a very good friend of the writer Sheridan Le Fanu and there are plenty of images of him. Here's a photo of the bust.
(http://www.agilitybits.co.uk/family/rcwilliams_smaller.jpg)
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Did he perhaps know the sculptor? As far as I know, the sculptor was active c 1840s to 1860s, in Dublin area, and also the son of a sculptor. Most sculptors seem to have been able to work with a few sittings and studies / reference .
It seems to be a pretty generic type of bust, with the "classical" drapery. There's a very similar bust of an Arthur Jacob.
If you can find family photos, or local press images( - he'd have had to be a fairly prominent citizen, to be worth having a bust made, wouldn't he? ) that might help assess how good a likeness it is even from other members of his family - an old sculptor I knew used to say as long as he got the ears right, he was okay, because people, especially family, always thought they'd been really observant spotting if the ears were correct, so the rest must be okay. (That chap worked in clay to be cast in bronze, though.)
Can't see it'd be all that different creating a sculpture ( subtracting to find the form within) than modelling (adding and manipulating, to build a form) given good skills observation and ability on the part of the artist, and he seems to have been very capable.
- Just realised I've repeated several other comments in part during this. Sorry.
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Interestingly, one of the marble sculptures catalogued to Kirk is : "Infant son of B Watkins Williams Wynn, marble 1855" - is that any link to your ancestors?
There is also the marble bust catalogued "R Carlisle Williams, M.D. for Royal College of Surgeons" but there doesn't seem to be a date given - is that your man?
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I too would say perhaps the bust maker knew him or his family enough to make his bust.
By the way why is it called a bust when it is of a head? Serious question.
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I agree with what has been said already and add that looking up the sculptor and another piece of his work, that subject had died before the date of the first exhibition. There is an explanation that the date given is the date when the work was first exhibited rather than completed.
Could that have happened with your ancestor?
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Yes, it's Robert Carlisle Williams. He was president of the Royal College of Surgeons from 1856 to 1857. He was then elected to the GMC. In June 1860 he was in London where he delivered an important lecture. He finished the lecture and went back to his hotel room and there he collapsed and died. He was only 55 years old and it was a shock to everyone. A bust was commissioned after his death and it stands in the entrance hall of the RCSI in Dublin.
I don't have any family photos from Dublin at all. Most of my family on that side were barristers but my great grandfather broke with tradition and went off to England become an engineer. His sister went with him. My mother knew very little about her grandparents as they died before she was born. She had no idea they were so learned. It's a shame she isn't alive today to find out more of her family history. Up until recently I thought they were all tinkers.
What I've done is to send a copy of the photo to some students who do clever things with Photoshop. I've asked if they can tidy up the photo, remove the whiskers and cloak and make it look more lifelike. It should be interesting if they take up the challenge.
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Why would you want to remove his whiskers?
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I've asked if they can tidy up the photo, remove the whiskers and cloak and make it look more lifelike. It should be interesting if they take up the challenge.
If you can save a higher resolution scan and post it on the photo restoration board here, I can guarantee that you'll get a range of interesting results.
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? As already said, why would you wish to tidy him up? And in any case, the genius image manipulators on here would do a really good job - for love.
Have you thought of writing to the RCA in Dublin, or whatever, and asking if they have any photos in their archive that they could let you have a copy of? If he had sifficient aminence to have a bust made in his honour, then surely they'd have images?
Millipede, I've absolutely no idea why it'd be called a "bust" - I know Victorian ladies at times referred to their bosom area as their "bust", thinking it was more ladylike, I suppose, - I shall spend hours now trying to find out why the term developed.....
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? As already said, why would you wish to tidy him up? And in any case, the genius image manipulators on here would do a really good job - for love.
Have you thought of writing to the RCA in Dublin, or whatever, and asking if they have any photos in their archive that they could let you have a copy of? If he had sifficient aminence to have a bust made in his honour, then surely they'd have images?
Millipede, I've absolutely no idea why it'd be called a "bust" - I know Victorian ladies at times referred to their bosom area as their "bust", thinking it was more ladylike, I suppose, - I shall spend hours now trying to find out why the term developed.....
Bust comes from the latin bustum, meaning grave, tomb or funeral pyre, and presumably became associated with the grave ornaments.
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The reason I want the image tidied up is because it has flashes of light glinting across it.
I have absolutely no photos of that side of the family except for a few of my grandfather. I can see the chin is similar but it's hard to tell with all those whiskers. My grandfather was clean shaven. There is also an aunt who had a similar nose. I would love to see just one photo pf one of my ancestors from Ireland but the marble bust is the nearest thing I've got.
The archivist at the RCSI took the photo for me but she could find no trace of any photos or a portrait. There are loads of oil paintings in the building and they are all catalogued.
You could look at Wikipedia to find out about busts. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bust_(sculpture)