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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: Hampshire Lass on Sunday 01 April 18 07:45 BST (UK)
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I seem to have done some very sloppy research last Summer and now have no idea where I obtained this photo from or even if it is really the person I hoped it was!
Please can anyone confirm what uniform he is wearing and an approximate date for the photo.
I was trying to find more information about William Cartwright who was an officer with the 9th Royal Veteran Battalion and whilst googling for more information I remember this photograph appeared but I'm now doubting it is truly William as I cannot replicate my search or trace my source.
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Lots on him on Google. Attached one Link, there are more.
https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/17537/page/2084/data.pdf.
The portrait looks like a Regular to me. Hairstyle suggests around 1800 and after. Coat looks like pre 1797/1800. Buff facings and gold lace could be 27th (pale), 40th, 48th or 61st.
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Thanks Regorian. I know from his son's baptism in 1808 that William was an ensign with the Royal Veterans based at Edinburgh Castle.
Researching him is confusing as the document you found is dated 1819 and there is a William Cartwright mentioned under Captain of companies and another William Cartwright to be an ensign.
I have to ask myself how many William Cartwrights there are! He also seems to move battalions a lot.
I do wonder if I made a mistake with the portrait and it is not him at all!
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Good morning,
If you read Regorians link you will notice the word "late" with each entry, this is the key word.
Originally raised in 1802 as Royal Garrison Battalions, titles changed to Royal Veterans in 1804. There were I think about 12 battalions altogether and all were disbanded by 1816.
Four new battalions were raised in 1818/1819 and if you look at start of first column in Regorians link it says "4th battalion". The list is of all the officers appointed to this battalion and where they came from.
In the case of your man, he was appointed ensign in the new 4th battalion and came from the "late 9th battalion".
Whether or not the picture is actually of him would probably need more research. No battalion can be ascertained from the picture.
These battalions were raised to give employment to men no longer fit for front line duty.
F
John915
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If that miniature portrait is a faithful image, and I think it is, most likely is 27th Regiment (Inniskilling's). Pale buff facings. He has two epaulettes so not a subaltern.
Added: I regret to say that there does not seem to be any connection with the Miniature.
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I have to ask myself how many William Cartwrights there are! He also seems to move battalions a lot.
There are 4 William Cartwrights in the 1814 Army List
-The Ensign in the 9th Royal Veteran Regiment (who has a seniority date of 10 September 1807).
-The Captain in the 5th Royal Veteran Regiment
-A Colonel in the 3rd Dragoons
-A Lieutenant General
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Thank you John915, ShaunJ and Regorian. At the time of downloading the image I felt convinced it was my man but failed to note why I thought this. Fast forward many months and I've picked him up again to double check my information and source......but cannot find the image anywhere on the internet! Hence my post.
I did find records for him on TNA which may help but unfortunately they don't seem available online. I may be able to send for them though and that's my next course of action.
I didn't realise there were 4 William Cartwrights in the Army at that time....I thought it was only 2 and so that doesn't help.Of course it is not an unusual name though.
Thank you for your help.
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Back again,
I have to agree with Regorian as to the regt depicted, I wasn't sure whether the facings are pale buff or white.
However, Hamilton Smith's charts (uniform and facings colours) 1812 show the veterans battalions to have dark blue facings.
Also agree with date of uniform so may be worthwhile exploring his previous record. It may be that the picture is of him prior to being in a veterans battalion. It could be him in the uniform of a Line regt in the late 1790s.
John915
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Thanks John915. He does look very young and I found info about the blue facings, which he doesn't have so it does look likely this was taken during the early part of his career. If it is even William!
I have just found reference to a William Cartwright in the 27th regiment so that may be progress.
Not sure if the record on TNA will be a comprehensive history of his service or just his movements whilst in the 9th veterans.
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His 1819 appointment to the 4th Royal Veterans did not happen - I wonder why?
See entry for Ensign Peter Mackay
https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/17546/page/2311
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I've looked at the 1805 list of all officers of the Army and Royal Marines. A William Cartwright was appointed Captain in the 7thRVB 15dec1800.
I looked at the 1795 list but could not find him. Perhaps he was not active or on half-pay. Perhaps not fit for active service and thus in an RVB.
The miniature shows him greying, perhaps 45 to 55.
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His movements and that of the various battalions folding and forming are hard to follow. The one fact I do know for sure is that in 1808 he was an ensign with the royal veterans based at Edinburgh Castle.
He possibly died in Guernsey in 1821 and the information about his death in the Saunders News Letter states he was a Captain with the 5th Royal Veterans. (May not be him?)
In 1808 he was based in the Orkneys, when his second son was born.
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Perhaps we have different people here with same name. Did you have any luck with the 27th Regiment?
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He possibly died in Guernsey in 1821 and the information about his death in the Saunders News Letter states he was a Captain with the 5th Royal Veterans. (May not be him?)
That's not your Ensign from the 9th RV.
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Better read this,
http://www.scottishmilitaryarticles.org.uk/smhsarticle_90th_Portrait.htm.
I have to look into this, an elder brother of my gggfather was in the 90th Regiment 1803 - 1817.
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His 1819 appointment to the 4th Royal Veterans did not happen - I wonder why?
There are a lot of appointments on that Gazette page which are vice someone whose appointment did not happen. Presumably there was some downsizing going on.
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Thanks for the link to the portrait Regorian. At least I know where I found it now.
There is a lot of information under the portrait about his military history and I wonder now if this is my William since it states that in 1802 he left the regiment to become Captain with the 7th Royal Garrison Battalion. I do know that the William Cartwright I am researching was an ensign with the 9th Royal Veterans in 1808.
Silly question........ if a young man with the "regular" army is of a high rank, when he is older and serving with a Veteran Battalion could he serve in a lower rank?
I'm guessing not but military research is not my forte.
I looked again at TNA and there is definitely records available for William Cartwright but they seem unobtainable despite stating it is an open document. Maybe it wouldn't contain full information of his military movements anyway.
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C13329452
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Good evening,
To go back to what Regorian said, the facings are pale buff although I thought they could also be white.
The 2nd link he has given showing the same portrait but ascribing him to the 90th foot is misleading I think. 90th foot facings were deep buff (pale brown describes it better) which is closer in colour to the crossbelt badge. Plus, 90th foot buttons were in pairs, we can't see the buttons but we can see the button holes in the facings and they are singles.
So is the portrait the man from 90th foot or HL's man in the veteran battalion, I would say not 90th foot.
9th veterans were in Edinburgh but from 1806? until they disbanded always had two company's in the Orkneys.
Commissions at that time in line regt's were purchased but i'm not sure about the veterans battalions. To advance you had to find a buyer for your existing commission and find the difference in price between that and the commission you wished to purchase. So we can disregard the dragoons officer and the general, unless this man was extremely wealthy or had come into wealth since his initial purchase. There would be quite a difference between the 27th and 90th foot for example just for an ensign. Regt'l seniority and past exploits meant much higher prices.
An officer in a veteran battalion, maybe going on half pay, could be willing to sell and buy lower just to remain in employment.
John915
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Wow thanks for that information John915 .... you learn something new every day.
Sounds like I'm still in with a chance of this being an image of my William. ....but still confused over his service.
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He possibly died in Guernsey in 1821 and the information about his death in the Saunders News Letter states he was a Captain with the 5th Royal Veterans. (May not be him?)
That's not your Ensign from the 9th RV.
Hi SaunJ. Why do you say this is not my ensign from the 9th? Just curious why you say that as I was hoping he may have risen in rank and moved battalions between 1808 and 1821. I really don't get Military stuff though :)
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I take in all you say John. How could I have mis ID'd the uniform? The 90th was raised by Colonel Graham in Perthshire in 1794. They had white facings and cuffs.
https://www.napoleon-series.org/military/organization/Britain/Infantry/Regiments/c_90thFoot.html.
Above Link is best. On return to UK uniforms were probably standard 1800 to 1811 type but buff collar and cuffs, except being light infantry (not official until 1815) wore the 1800 to 1811 shako with green plume and did not have the Belgic/Waterloo shako 1812 to 1815. They are shown as such whilst in Canada in War of 1812.
I am trying to post some images but having trouble.
See 90th Regiment Images:-
Soldier 1801 by Charles Stadden.
90th Regiment 1812 - 1814 Canada.
Kings and Regimental Colours 1801 - 1817.
Officer 90th regiment.
King's and Regimental Colours 1794 - 1801.
Other Thread
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=657677.0
I would have thought these two Threads would answer all the questions, perhaps William downsized himself from regulars due to bilharzia, 90th marched all the way to Cairo and back, have a paddle in the Nile and there goes your liver. Roman Catholic wife, he was in the theatre to meet her.
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The baptism records in 1808 for Williams twin children say he is an ensign in the Royal Veterans. After his wife's death he remarried and another son was born in Orkney but it would appear there is no baptism.
This morning I have found another daughter born in 1816 and the record was dated 1836 when she was finally baptised. The record states Elizabeth Cartwright was born in 1816, the daughter of William Cartwright and Elizabeth Gordon, both now deceased. The record also states that William Cartwright was sometime Captain in the 9th Veteran Battalion.
Joining the dots up in a strange fashion could this mean that William Cartwright was the man who died in Guernsey in 1821 (who was a Captain in the Royal Veterans) and therefore the man in the portrait since the records under the portrait states he died in Guernsey in 1821......or am I being too fanciful?
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Have to leave it to you good people, I'm confused ???
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This morning I have found another daughter born in 1816 and the record was dated 1836 when she was finally baptised. The record states Elizabeth Cartwright was born in 1816, the daughter of William Cartwright and Elizabeth Gordon, both now deceased. The record also states that William Cartwright was sometime Captain in the 9th Veteran Battalion.
Joining the dots up in a strange fashion could this mean that William Cartwright was the man who died in Guernsey in 1821 (who was a Captain in the Royal Veterans) and therefore the man in the portrait since the records under the portrait states he died in Guernsey in 1821......or am I being too fanciful?
I think Elizabeth was being fanciful. There was no Captain William Cartwright in the 9th Royal Veterans. There was an Ensign William Cartwright in the 9th who retired on full pay in 1819. He doesn't appear on the retired list in 1821 so presumably he died in 1820.
Scotland's People has a Will proved at Edinburgh on 5 January 1821 for a William Cartwright - possibly the man you are interested in.
The other William Cartwright who was a Captain in the 5th Royal Veterans (the man in the picture) appears to have retired about the same time. Google Books has this snippet about him:
Journal of the Cork Historical and Archaeological Society - Page 111 (1933)
"She married William Cartwright, Captain of the 90th Regiment of Foot, and subsequently, of the 6th Royal Veteran Battalion, died at his house in Guernsey, aforesaid, 19th July, 1821, buried there on the 21st of the same month. Married first, 26th May, 1794, at St. Peter's, Nottingham, Charlotte, daughter of James Bagnall, of St. Peter's Parish, Nottingham. Leaving issue both marriages. Elizabeth, second daughter, married 10th January, 1818, at St. Peter's Port, Guernsey, aforesaid, ..."
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Thanks Shaun J that appears to knock the portrait and Guernsey death on the head.
I found the 1821 Will myself but was unable to read it! Perhaps I should try again.
If William died in 1821 his daughter would only have been 5 so she probably wouldn't remember his rank or regiment.
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We can help with reading wills - post the bits you're having trouble with on the "Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition" board.
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Still raises the question of his first marriage to Valentina Rosa de Cruz though.
Their twins were baptised in Edinburgh but there seems to be no marriage record available. Valentina is presumably foreign and so maybe William married her whilst serving overseas.
As for posting sections of the Will......I can read none of it ::)
Thanks though....I will look at it again and then post parts....good idea.
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Good afternoon,
I think the portrait could still be your man. Despite what that site says about it being of an officer of the 90th foot. The facing colours are wrong for that regt.
It is more likely to be an officer in the 27th foot with pale buff facings. This was proposed by Regorian first then you found a William Cartwright in that regt. That to me ties in much better.
So I would say ignore all references to Capt Cartwright and Guernsey and to the 90th foot. I do 't think that is your man.
See also Glory1505's thread.
John915
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We seem to be on two levels now :D. I think Captain Cartwright is our man. See reply 17 on other Thread. He married a Spanish? Lady and they lived in UK. What I am lacking is a good old family tree (down to 1850 would do). OP's don't seem to be keen on providing one. I will have to make it up myself.
You are an admirer of Charles Hamilton-Smith, so am I John. The V&A have an original. Don't know where he found the time. I believe he was attached to the Russian Staff during the Napoleonic invasion of 1812. I remember a quote of his re 1813, 'It was so mild we did not have to wear our greatcoats'.
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We are operating on two levels, as Regorian says. On one level, Hampshire Lass is researching an Ensign Cartwright of the 9th Royal Veterans who married Valentina Da Cruz. But this thread started with her query about the portrait she collected in her research last year, which transpires to be of Captain Cartwright of the 90th regiment if we believe the website found by Regorian http://www.scottishmilitaryarticles.org.uk/smhsarticle_90th_Portrait.htm
From information in the Gazette, Ensign Cartwright of the 9th RV was previously Quarter Master of the 23rd Light Dragoons. He's not the man in the portrait but he is the man that the OP is interested in.
https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/16066/page/1217
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This matter may have a long way to go Shaun. The captain of the 90th was in the right places to meet a Spanish Lady, Minorca, Cadiz and Malta.
We will see.
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We seem to be on two levels now :D. I think Captain Cartwright is our man. See reply 17 on other Thread. He married a Spanish? Lady and they lived in UK. What I am lacking is a good old family tree (down to 1850 would do). OP's don't seem to be keen on providing one. I will have to make it up myself.
I can give you the family tree for ENSIGN William Cartwright as far as I've researched it for my line:
Ensign William Cartwright married Valinteena Rosa de Cruz (dates unknown for both of these)
Their children:
William and Isabella Cartwright (twins) b. 1808, Edinburgh, d. unknown
Suspected second marriage of William Cartwright (Snr) to Elizabeth Gordon in 1810
Their children:
George Waring Cartwright b. 1814, Orkney, d. 1880, Staffs
Elizabeth Cartwright b. 1816, Edinburgh, d. unknown
William Cartwright (Jnr) (b.1808) married Sarah Garner (1820-1850) in 1839, Rempstone, Notts
Their children:
William Cartwright (b. 1840, d. unknown)
Valinteena Rosa de Croix Cartwright (b. 1843, Wimeswold, Leics, d. 1908, Lambeth, London)
Joseph Garner Cartwright (b. 1846, Loughborough, d. 1913, Cornwall)
I can take it further if needed! Hope this helps!
(P.S. Valinteena has been spelt this way on their certificates/documents so I'm going with it!).
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Thank you Glory 1505, that sems to demolish Captain Cartwright of the 90th once and for all. I can't say that I'm happy, but the truth is the truth.
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The captain of the 90th was in the right places to meet a Spanish Lady, Minorca, Cadiz and Malta.
But he was already married, to Charlotte Bagnall.
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I remember WC's marriage to Charlotte but can't find it and more importantly the date.
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Good evening,
I suppose this ruins my theory of the portrait not being 90th foot.
But with all we now know, Ensign William Cartwright 9th RVB has to be the correct man. He is certainly the only one who was present on Orkney.
But our Capt Cartwright intrigues me, did he have previous military service before the 90th, was he wealthy. The roll of officers show him as a lieutenant when they formed so did he buy a lieutenancy outright or did he sell a lower commission to help purchase his new rank.
He rose to captain for a few years but on return to England in 1802 disappears from the 90th roll.
John915
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Just to note this while I remember, I think there is an error in this TNA catalogue entry:
Name: William Cartwright. Regiment: 9th Veteran Battalion. Date of Service: 1805.
Please Note: This item will now be found in WO 25/52B
WO25/52B should probably read WO25/752B
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I'm confused! :D
I'm very grateful for your input and research Regorian and ShaunJ but are we now saying "my" William Cartwright is not the man in the portrait? Or does the uniform indicate it may be him, with the information under the photo relating to Captain William Cartwright, who died in Guernsey?
There are just so many William Cartwrights and I really get confused with Military stuff ;D
Thanks ShaunJ for the info about the TNA reference numbers. I did wonder myself if the reference was incorrect but then forgot to follow it up by seeing if I could order WO25/752B
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I suggest you disregard the portrait unless you can recall its provenance being other than from the web page relating to the Captain.
You'll have seen my earlier discovery that the Ensign was until 1807 Quarter Master of the 23rd Light Dragoons. Ancestry's sister site FOLD 3 apparently has a record for a William Cartwright of that regiment being discharged at Kilmainham in July 1807, aged 32, from York, a Major General (doesn't seem likely! ). Needs investigating.
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Thanks ShaunJ.
I found the photo from the same website as Regorian and so it looks in unlikely to be him. Will carry on researching though 😀
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Hi all, just to say I have a little more information on William Cartwright now as I purchased the record from TNA.
It actually contains little information on his service but does list birth details of 10 of his 11 children (one of whom .....Isabella.....doubtless died) and also his second marriage in 1810.
Anyway, this document is signed by William Cartwright, late ensign RVB and then date stamped as received at the War Office on 27th November 1828. It states that for the last five years William has been resident in Leicester.
The page which contains service information states his age as 40 years on first appointment to His Majesty's Service on 10th September 1807. It states he was an ensign, without purchase, with the 9th Veteran Battalion.
Sadly there is no information about any previous service and so that is still a mystery. Just thought I would update the information here as it may be of interest to Glory1505.