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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: EdCan on Wednesday 18 April 18 17:40 BST (UK)
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In going over earlier research I have found that there are some points re Harriett that need to be addressed.
Harriett married William Bayliss 9 Jan 1816 Stepney. I have found four baptisms(1820-28) for their children. In 1841 Harriett with children are living in St George the Martyr, Townsend St, Kent Rd, Southwark. Harriett's age is shown as 50(1791) which I assume is the age she thought she was since the children's ages are shown their actual age. Harriett died 11 Aug 1846 in Peckham with her age given as 73 giving a birth year of 1773 as reported by granddaughter. I assume a birth date of abt 1791 would be more accurate than abt 1773 given a child born in 1828.
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there's another child, Mary, bp 16 August at St Mary Newington born 20 May 1829 daughter of William, of the Excise, & Harriet address Charles St, Kent Road.
As the oldest of the 4 sons on the 1841 is 20, how is there a granddaughter old enough to register a death in 1846?
There's a burial 1 Nov 1846 at Nunhead Cemetery for Harriet Baylis aged 47 of Neat Street, Coburg Road, Old Kent Road, death registered as Harriett Baylis dec qtr 1846 Camberwell vol 4 pg 58.
-found her on 1841, wrong woman.
There's also a Harriot Bayliss of Hill Street buried St Giles Camberwell 16 Aug 1846, age given as 86.
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Don't forget also that ages of people over 15 were rounded DOWN to the nearest 5 years in 1841. (Or should have been).
The ages of children 15 and below should be correct --- at age last birthday - so Harriett's age in 1841 could have been anywhere between 50 and 54 (provided she had actually remembered her own age correctly.)
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many of the people on that census page don't have rounded down ages. One of the sons is 18 and John & Sarah Miller who appear to be in the same building are enumerated as 57 & 44.
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there's another child, Mary, bp 16 August at St Mary Newington born 20 May 1829 daughter of William, of the Excise, & Harriet address Charles St, Kent Road.
As the oldest of the 4 sons on the 1841 is 20, how is there a granddaughter old enough to register a death in 1846?
There's a burial 1 Nov 1846 at Nunhead Cemetery for Harriet Baylis aged 47 of Neat Street, Coburg Road, Old Kent Road, death registered as Harriett Baylis dec qtr 1846 Camberwell vol 4 pg 58.
There's also a Harriot Bayliss of Hill Street buried St Giles Camberwell 16 Aug 1846, age given as 86.
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Thanks for finding Mary. Since she is not with the family she is either visiting or has died. Will need to find out. Also thanks for the burial.
I guess that Harriett had a child prior to marriage and the granddaughter would have to be old enough to report details of death. From death cert granddaughter and Harriett lived at 5 Hill St. Granddaughter identified as E S Dawson. In 1851 there is an Ellen Sopa(?) Dawson living in Hill St but familysearch does not give a house number. Perhaps someone could have a look
Ed
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that's the same address as the Harriott whose age at burial was noted as 86!
There's also a burial 27 Sep 1843, died 24 Sep, in Greenwich for a Harriett Bayliss aged 52 abode the workhouse. She was in Southwark for the 1841 census, would she end up in the Greenwich workhouse?
Ignore the Coburg Road one above, just found her on the census also married to a William, but his one a laundryman.
1851 census 5 Hill St HO107/1581 folio 297 pg 8
Elizabeth Dawson head widow 48 schoolmistress
Ellen Sopa dau 21 b. Peckham
Thos Wm King 7 scholar b. ST George Hanover Sq
Geo Fredk King 6 scholar b. Westminster, York St
1841 in Hill Street Elizabeth is principal of ladies school.
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There is an Ellen Sophia Dawson 7 Jun 1828 St Giles with parents William Henry and Elizabeth
Ed
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William Henry Dawson married Elizabeth Bayliss 6 June 1827 in St Martin in the Fields, both otp, both sign.
Ellen Sophia's is the only baptism I can see to the couple.
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burial 24 May 1840 at St Giles Camberwell for William Henry Dawson aged 39 of Hill Street, Peckham.
Same church, Ellen Sophia Dawson married Thomas Rich, gentleman, both of Hill St, Peckham, 31 Jan 1852, her father noted as William Henry Dawson, gentleman.
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Date of birth for Harriett must be earlier than 1791 assuming William Henry is her son and that his dob is 1801.
Ed
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I don't think William Henry was her son, it's just a coincidence of surnames.
Elizabeth Dawson was being economical with her age in 1851. Baptism in Hatherop, Gloucestershire 24 July 1800 for Elizabeth dau of Anthony & Harriett Baylis
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NGWR-8FX
Siblings baptised in same parish
Anne bp 3 July 1794
William bp 3 feb 1796
Hariot bp 21 June 1798
Possible marriage in Faringdon, Berks 4 May 1793 for Anthony Baylis & Harriet Smart.
So this Harriet wasn't a Dawson, her daughter married one so looks unlikely to be the one who married William Bayliss in Stepney as a spinster. But she is the one who was buried in Camberwell aged 86 according to burial or 73 on her death cert.
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I agree the names are coincidence but how does Ellen Sophia become the granddaughter if William Henry is not Harriett's son?
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Ellen Sophia is the granddaughter of the Harriet who married Anthony Baylis, the parents of Elizabeth who married William Henry Dawson. I don't think that can be the death reg for your Harriet. Age at death is out & age given on burial is wildly out for your Harriet but is a match for mother of Elizabeth Dawson.
Have you ruled out the 70 year old Harriet Bayliss on the 1861 census in St Giles Camberwell? She was a nurse, widowed and born Southwark. RG9/380 folio 45 pg 29. Address 54 James Street, son John & wife Sophia are at number 50. Probable death age 65 29 Dec 1866 in Camberwell Workhouse of vascular disease & general debility.
1851 census 20 Salisbury Place, St Mary Newington, Lambeth HO107/1567 folio 891 pg 53
Edward Baylis head 24 porter to a bookseller b. Newington
Harriot 60 b. St Olave
Possible baptism 28 March 1790 in St Olave for Harriott Dawson daughter of George, collarmaker, and Mary, noted as born 2 March.
Marriage 21 Oct 1789 in St Mary Newington for George Dawson & Mary Goodson, both otp, he signs, she marks, witnesses William Barton & Elizabeth Barton.
Edward Bayliss married Sarah Smith 23 Oct 1853 in St Mary Newington, bookseller's assistant of Salisbury Place, father noted as William, a miller.
There doesn't seem to be another Edward Bayliss son of a William baptised in Newington around that time. John Charles on his marriage to Sophia Susan Cornes also gives father as William, a miller as does George on his marriage in 1847.
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When the boys(George,John Charles,Joseph and Edward) married they described their father as William Bayliss,deceased and occupation as either miller or baker. When Harriett died she was described as widow of William Bayliss - baker
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When the boys(George,John Charles,Joseph and Edward) married they described their father as William Bayliss,deceased and occupation as either miller or baker.
William's occupation should be on the children's baptisms, what was it for each of them?
Debra :)
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Each had "of Excise". It appears he had a change of occupation before he died.
Ed
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the 1846 death can't be her. It must just be coincidence. She is on the 1851 census with her son Edward. She is on the 1861 census living just a few houses away from John Charles.
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This death maybe:
BAYLIS, HARRIET
Aged 75
GRO Reference: 1866 Dec Quarter in CAMBERWELL
Volume 01D Page 378
Debra :)
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that's the ref for the death in the workhouse that I gave in reply no. 12.
I wonder if Ellen Sophia made a mistake with the name of Harriet's husband. When one of my direct line died, her death was registered by her brother, noted as widow of George. She had been married 3 times, but to 2 Thomases and a David, her eldest son was called George though.
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found some more baptisms to Anthony & Harriet Bayliss in Bampton, Oxfordshire
Amelia bp 28 Aug 1805
Sophia bp 26 Feb 1808
Mary Clara bp 2 Nov 1810
A newspaper mention from 5 Jan 1839 of the death at Bampton of Sophia Bayliss on the 29 Dec, daughter of the late Mr. Anthony Bayliss, baker
1841 census High Street, Bampton HO107/872/4 folio 7 pg 8
Frederic Stephens 25 grocer
Mary 25
Frederick 2
Harriet Bayliss 60 Ind
all born in county, mother's maiden name on birth reg of Frederick Stephens march qtr 1839 Witney is Bayliss. Marriage announcement from newspaper dated 30 Sep 1837 "Mr. Frederick Stephens, grocer, to Clara, youngest daughter of the late Mr Bayliss, of that place, baker."
So the Harriet, grandmother of Ellen Sophia, was married to a baker, although he was called Anthony, not William. He died sometime before Sep 1837 so Ellen Sophia might not even have known him.
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just found the burial for Anthony Baylis in Bampton, aged 44 10 July 1812.
::)
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Have ordered the 1866 death cert. Will let you know results.
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Death cert info
Harriett Baylis aged 75 yrs died of Valvular disease at the Camberwell Workhouse. Death reported by John Smithers, Workhouse Master
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so no more info than the workhouse register I quoted earlier. Think it might be vascular disease. Does it not give widow of... ?
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No other info to tie her to anyone.
Ed
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How frustrating!