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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: sheila on Thursday 31 May 18 13:57 BST (UK)
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Can anyone help me decipher the mother's maiden name on this Scottish death certificate please?
I have seen a marriage for William Carruthers to Mary Mather . I think this name begins with an M but could it be Mather?
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I would say Maher
Annie
Add....Pronunciation may have sounded different to actual spelling?
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It doesn't look like Mather but not sure what it is :-\
What's the squiggle below the line for the second letter, end of the word looks like "an or ar"
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Did Mary die in Scotland, if so can you narrow down yrs please to see what comes up?
Annie
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What's the squiggle below the line for the second letter and end of the word looks like "an or on"
Looks like the remnants of the 'd' from 'dec'd'
Annie
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Goodness yes hadn't thought it may have come "from below"
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What's the squiggle below the line for the second letter, end of the word looks like "an or ar"
As Annie wrote (while I was typing) I think the squiggle immediately below the second letter is a superscript 'd' from 'Decd' on the line below. It looks as though there may be a similar character at the very top of the snip - there's certainly the dot that would go below it.
With that disregarded, could the resulting surname be Madan? (Is that even a name?)
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could the resulting surname be Madan? (Is that even a name?)
I know of the name Madden
Sheila, is it possible to post another part of the doc which may contain letters 'd' & 'h' please?
Annie
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Thanks for the quick responses.
All I know about Mary was that she wasn't with her husband William at Fairy Hall , Kirkpatrick Flemming , Dumfriesshire in 1841.
Nor with him at the Toll- bar in Gretna in 1846 so presumably she died pre 1841. One daughter with William at this time was born in 1816.
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Here is the death reg.
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Looking at William's entry I see you are right about the d of dec.d . I hadn't thought of that . What looks like a d in the name could be th squeezed together . So that would be more like Mather
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Not finding any baptisms with Mary Ma---- or similar so no help there.
Deaths pre 1855 seldom recorded but you may get lucky with MIs?
Annie
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Thanks Annie .I'll try searching for MI'S. Your input has helped me a lot so far
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Do you have all the details of where/when William died which may help with burials?
I need to go out now.
Annie
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Could the person giving the name pronounce it as Madar - I've heard a lot of th sounds pronounced as a d. The clerk/minister would then have recorded what he heard.
Gadget
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Gadget .That sounds possible .I can see MATHER could be misheard as MAGDAR
Annie : I know William Carruthers was alive and living in Gretna in 1846 with his daughter Agnes and her son Stewart Scott (Carruthers) . Agnes was tried for killing her new born baby in 1846 and sent to Tasmania. William was the toll-bar keeper at Gretna at the time. I'm trying to sort out is what happened to William .He was said to be 69 on the 1841 census so may have died around this time . No sign of him on the 1851 census. There is a William Carruthers at Rigg Toll Bar in 1857 but i can't be sure if this is William snr or jnr . Lots of work to do
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No g - it's the superscript d of Decd in the line below - see father's Decd to compare. I see it as Madar.
Gadget
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Sorry I meant Madar . Slip of the finger
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It looks like Malan!
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I don’t think the end letter is an ‘n’ as it’s different from the ‘n’ in Stone/Mason/Bonthron(e)
I would say the end letter looks most like the other ‘r’s
I don’t think the middle letter has any resemblance to any of the other ‘l’s in William/apopleptic/paralysis
I now think the middle letter looks most like the other ‘d’s
I think the name should be Mather but pronounced with a silent ‘h’ pronounced Mater & could sound like Madar which is written (in my view)?
I agree with Gadget in a different sense ;)
Annie
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Thanks again Annie . I had my doubts about the last letter. When I enlarge the scan it looks like an x to me . I'll go back to looking at William and Mary's other children to see if I can find another version of Mary's surname
Sheila
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Thanks again Annie . I had my doubts about the last letter. When I enlarge the scan it looks like an x to me .
Phonetic version of 'Maddox'? (Or legitimate alternative spelling?)
I'll go back to looking at William and Mary's other children to see if I can find another version of Mary's surname
Good idea.
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To me
Madax
So agreeing with arthurk. Phonetic interpretation of what we might see as Maddocks.
Sue
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All I know about Mary was that she wasn't with her husband William at Fairy Hall , Kirkpatrick Flemming , Dumfriesshire in 1841.
Nor with him at the Toll- bar in Gretna in 1846 so presumably she died pre 1841.
What was the age of William on 1841 for a c yr of birth for Mary (assuming there wasn't a big age difference) :-\
Good observation with the 'X'!!!
Annie
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What was the age of William on 1841 for a c yr of birth for Mary (assuming there wasn't a big age difference) :-\
Annie
[/quote]
William was said to be 69 .Give or take 5 years if the age was rounded off as it should have been. Working on a birth year around 1772
I'm trying to get in touch with another researcher of this family who has MatherS down as a surname but will have to be patient as Ancestry's messages aren't working for me .
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I did a quick search on SP (OPRs) for surname, very few but here are the variants;
Madex, Maddex, Maddox
Annie
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Was the child on the DC you have, born in Dumfries?
Annie
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Was the child on the DC you have, born in Dumfries?
Annie
The censuses all say Kirkpatrick Flemming. No birth information on the death certificate
It does look like Madax or a variation on that .
Sheila
Sheila
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Was the child on the DC you have, born in Dumfries?
Annie
The censuses all say Kirkpatrick Flemming. No birth information on the death certificate
It does look like Madax or a variation on that .
Sheila
Sheila
I,m sticking with Madax too.
The letter at the end of the name is to me at least, clearly an x.
It is in the script form of 2 small c's back to back.
Sue
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Malky
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Was the child on the DC you have, born in Dumfries?
Annie
The censuses all say Kirkpatrick Flemming. No birth information on the death certificate
I should have added after my question (on censuses) as there were no baptisms to say where he was born :)
Do you know how many children there were & whether any remained in Scotland to get a better idea of Marys' m/s from deaths of other children?
Annie
Add...There are no deaths anywhere in Scotland (recorded) on SP with surname mad*** pre 1855 (which would fit Mary)
Only 1 female who with a name of coincidence with Marys' daughter (mother maybe), age would fit but no way of knowing although the surname isn't common?
MADDEX AGNES
FURNER / FIMOTHY FURNER 72 (b c 1760)
02/10/1832
692/2 340 131 Leith (Edinburgh)
I would think this has been transcribed wrongly & should be Timothy & Turner?
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Do you know how many children there were & whether any remained in Scotland to get a better idea of Marys' m/s from deaths of other children?
I'm having trouble tracing anything on the other children. From Agnes' prison records she says she has a brother william and sisters , Elspeth , Margaret and Jane or that might be Margaret Jane. all living in Dumfriesshire in 1847 , though I know Elspeth was married and living in Peebleshire then.
It is possible that their marriages could have been Irregular marriages in Gretna Green.
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Possible death?
CARRUTHERS ELSPETH 68 (b c1805)
CUTHBERTSON ELSPETH 68
1873
767/ 1 Newlands (Peebles)
Same ref. no. if she married a Cuthbertson?
Annie
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Possible death?
CARRUTHERS ELSPETH 68 (b c1805)
CUTHBERTSON ELSPETH 68
1873
767/ 1 Newlands (Peebles)
Same ref. no. if she married a Cuthbertson?
Annie
That's the death cert that sheila put up the snip from.
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Possible death?
CARRUTHERS ELSPETH 68 (b c1805)
CUTHBERTSON ELSPETH 68
1873
767/ 1 Newlands (Peebles)
Same ref. no. if she married a Cuthbertson?
Annie
Yes Annie that's the death certificate that I have . Thank you for your hard work
Sheila
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Have you chased up the others on the 1841, sheila? I had a quick look earlier but couldn't find the Stewart and the others have common names :-\
Gadget
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Gadget,
Stewart was the 'newborn' Agnes was tried for in 1846 ;)
Annie
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Gadget,
Stewart was the 'newborn' Agnes was tried for in 1846 ;)
Annie
Ah - what about the others?
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"Yes Annie that's the death certificate that I have"
Who was the informant?
What was the age of Agnes in 1846?
A possible?
CARRUTHERS MARGARET JANE 1860
799/2 43 Ladhope (Roxburgh)
No matching ref. i.e. a spinster?
No age on index so it may be unlikely her parentage was known either?
Annie
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Have you looked at this baptism record - Kirkpatrick Fleming 1795
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Not sure if you've seen these:
Also to same parents - Mary as Mathers, Kirkpatrick Fleming
Margaret 27 Jan 1794
Henrietta 26 June 1797
Agnes seem much younger than the others :-\
Gadget
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Have you chased up the others on the 1841? I had a quick look earlier but couldn't find the Stewart and the others have common names :-\
Stewart was the 'newborn' Agnes was tried for in 1846 ;)
Gadget,
My apologies, Stewart is on 1841!
I misread it, Agnes was tried for killing her 'newborn' which was obviously not Stewart.
1841 - Fairy Hall, Kirkpatrick Fleming, Dumfriesshire
Surname as Carrithers
William 69
Agness 28 (b c1813)
Mary 10
Jean 5
Williamina 5
Stewart 3
Annie
Add...Great find on the baptisms!!!
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Yep - got the names from the 1841.
Found Elspeth on 1841- 1861 and 1871 in Newlands - not yet on 1851 - must be a big mistranscription. She's down as b. KP in last 2 but b. county in 1841 (Peeblesshire)
1841, children are Mary, b.c. 1834, Jane b.c. 1835, William, b.c. 1838 and Marion b.c. 1840
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Just thinking about grandchildren and knowing their grandmothers' maiden name. I've seen this on many death certs. . The informant on Elspeth's death cert is her son, William. He might well have mis-remembered Elspeth's mothers' name. The three baptism records do suggest that it was Mathers as first thought.
Gadget
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I have a few with wrong maiden names but enough evidence to work out the errors.
A possible death although not sure on the area given where the family were previously & note there's no 's' on the end?
CARRUTHER WILLIAM 72 (b c1775) - Not too far off his possible birth yr?
22/05/1847
839/30 364 Langholm or Staplegorton (Dumfries)
Annie
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Don't think so as there's a William that fits living in Langholm in 1841 - a wool sorter, wife is Agnes.
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Don't think so as there's a William that fits living in Langholm in 1841 - a wool sorter, wife is Agnes.
Thanks Gadget,
Was searching him when you replied but had my doubts given the area although any possible is worth checking out :)
Nothing on findagrave either sadly.
Annie
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Gadget, can you make out the area William & Mary are 'in' on the baptism for William?
Closest I can find is Mouswold but it doesn't look like that?
Re Mouswold..."The land belonged to the Clan Carruthers up to the 16th century"
Annie
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I think it's Mossknows or something like that - Scotlands Places or NLS maps might show it.
An enlargement
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Mossknow
https://maps.nls.uk/view/74426689#zoom=5&lat=1837&lon=11846&layers=BT
add http://www.visionofbritain.org.uk/descriptions/132870 The mansion wasn't there until 1830s
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Thanks for that & now with the name it's quite obvious :-[
My comp is updating & keeps cutting off so I'm getting nowhere fast ;D
Annie
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I've had a problem with FindMyPast yesterday and today. The other sites don't seem to be a problem though, so can get around it. It's my Welsh lines that are being slowed down ::)
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And...always when you find something of interest ::)
This from 1802 (may be related)?
"Carruthers Jas. Mossknow farmer"
http://relativelyscottish.com/andrews-blog/
Annie
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There's a James bpt 19 March 1754, KP. Father John
Maybe not family names though :-\
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Going through the family names:
An interesting baptism in Johnstone, given a daughter named Elspeth:
26 April 1779 William son of James Carruthers and Elspeth Mitchel
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Not any help but...
I checked the earliest VRs (1855) Edit..1865 Mossknow(e), Kirkpatrick Fleming, Colonel William Graham was the Proprietor & would have been Proprietor when William died.
Did William work for him, rent property from him, could there be records somewhere?
Plenty of reading online if one has the time!
Annie
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I had a look at the earlier ones and the servants tax, etc. on Scotlands Places - the family seem to have been there for a very long time.
I assume that William was living on the the Mossknow lands somewhere. Must look for the Fairy hill/alt where they are in 1841.
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I checked the earliest VRs (1855) Edit..1865 Mossknow(e), Kirkpatrick Fleming, Colonel William Graham was the Proprietor & would have been Proprietor when William died.
Maybe not, not sure if this incorporated where William was?
BELL JOHN ESQUIRE Proprietor Occupier
MANSION HOUSE GARDEN LANDS AND WOODLANDS OF KIRKPATRICK, KIRKPATRICK FLEMING (DUMFRIES)
1855 VR009700002-
Annie
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Think this might be the area where they where living in 1841
https://maps.nls.uk/view/74426689#zoom=5&lat=9653&lon=9920&layers=BT
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Interestingly, Colonel Graham had a son named Charles Stewart although I don't know his yr of birth.
Does make one wonder if there was a connection with Agnes & her son Stewart?
Annie
Add, red alert, will have a look now Gadget :)
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Think this might be the area where they where living in 1841
https://maps.nls.uk/view/74426689#zoom=5&lat=9653&lon=9920&layers=BT
That would make sense as it seems to be a 'mound' (hill) & possibly named Fairy Hill by locals?
Annie
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And just south of Mossknow :D
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Great find, pretty conclusive I think, that's where they were!
Graham family of Mossknowe...
1506-1860 "title deeds, estate papers"
Viewable "Held by National Records of Scotland"
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/N13845884
Annie
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Modern map
https://tinyurl.com/ybrsn3gn
I think he didn't move very far from bpt of the first children until his death. And it would seem that Mary was a Mather :)
Gadget
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You've been busy Annie and Gadget while I was forced away from my laptop to go to a wedding.
I can see a Fairyknowe on the map you found https://maps.nls.uk/view/74426689#zoom=5&lat=9653&lon=9920&layers=BT perhaps this could be FairyRow ?
Thanks for all your help .It looks like Mary Mather's is the mother . I've now seen bap. for William , Henerietta and Margret which was down as Maigret . Just Jane, Elspeth and Agnes to find .
By the way, Col. Graham signed Agnes' arrest warrant .
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By the way, Col. Graham signed Agnes' arrest warrant .
Good piece of history! & glad I was on the right track.
Annie
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An interesting read if like myself you like to see the wider picture?
Sadly no mention here of the Carruthers or Mathers.
https://www.ucl.ac.uk/lbs/person/view/2146634698
Annie