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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: adj05 on Wednesday 20 June 18 13:25 BST (UK)
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My ancestor was a a seargeant-major in the Royal Artillery, and drill instructor to the Manchester Artillery. I can not find any of his service records and neither can I find a record of his marriage. Please can anybody help me find something or at least point me in the right direction?
His name was James Sadler and he was born around 1856 but I haven't even been able to find his birth record. The name of his wife was Hannah Mary Ollier. All I know is that his death occurred in 1898 at Manchester Artillery Headquarters in Hyde-Road.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you so much
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Can you please tell us where you have him on census - Where was he born
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I do not know where he was born, just the approximate year of birth.
The only source that I have is this newspaper article documenting his death....
MANCHESTER TIMES
Friday 16th December 1898
TRAGEDY IN HYDE-ROAD
SUICIDE OF AN ARTILLERY SERGEANT MAJOR
A sad tragedy occurred last night week, shortly after half-past five, at the Manchester Artillery Headquarters in Hyde-Road. Brigade Sergeant Major. J Sadler cut his throat while in a state of delirium resulting from pneumonia, and his death occurred soon afterwards.
Sergeant-Major Sadler lived at the headquarters. He had held the office since 1892, after serving 14 years in India, and was a favourite with all ranks of the brigade.
He had caught a chill, its is thought, through waiting to welcome the returning troops of the Manchester Regiment. On Saturday morning he was so unwell that Dr. Heathcote ordered him to bed again and there he remained up to Thursday, the attack having developed into a case of acute pneumonia.
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Did he and Hannah have children
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He had three children with his wife called Lional, Roland and Hilda.
I just want to be able to track him further back and learn of his siblings and parents but can't seem to do so.
I know that he served in India as well. He was 42 when he died in 1898
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I know all about his wife and children and that after his death they moved to New England, USA
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I'm just at a dead end and pulling my hair out as to why I can't find his marriage record, birth record or appearance on a census
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You say you know all about his wife and children yet you don’t give us any idea of when or where they were born, all details that can help with the search.
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Was Roland born in 1896?
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Are you sure about his wife's name? Could he have married Hannah Maud Jane? In India?
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I think this is him
First name(s) James
Last name Sadler
Age 19
Birth year 1856
Birth town Laleham
Birth county Middlesex
Birth country England
Service number 16505
Regiment Royal Artillery
Unit / Battalion 1st Battery
Year 1875
Series WO 363
Series description Wo 363 - First World War Service Records 'Burnt Documents'
Archive The National Archives
Record set British Army Service Records
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Are you sure about his wife's name? Could he have married Hannah Maud Jane? In India?
Was Roland born in 1896?
You say you know all about his wife and children yet you don’t give us any idea of when or where they were born, all details that can help with the search.
Wife, Hannah Mary Ollier 1859 - 1937
Children,
Lional b, 1894
Roland b, 1896
Hilda b, 1897
James Sadler won't ever appear on a census with his children though due to their birth dates and his death date.
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Ignore the bit about the records being gthe burnt documents from WW1. They are not.
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Do you have the marriage documents?
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I think this is him
First name(s) James
Last name Sadler
Age 19
Birth year 1856
Birth town Laleham
Birth county Middlesex
Birth country England
Service number 16505
Regiment Royal Artillery
Unit / Battalion 1st Battery
Year 1875
Series WO 363
Series description Wo 363 - First World War Service Records 'Burnt Documents'
Archive The National Archives
Record set British Army Service Records
Are you sure about his wife's name? Could he have married Hannah Maud Jane? In India?
His wife was definitely Hannah Mary or Mary Hannah as it some time appears.
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I know that he served in India
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Do you have the marriage documents?
Desperately trying to find the marriage documents
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Ignore the bit about the records being gthe burnt documents from WW1. They are not.
Does the record show family members or place him in Ardwick, Manchester.
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Source Gro Index Army Marriages (1881 To 1955)
Archive reference ARM2
Records year range 1882
Record set British Armed Forces And Overseas Banns And Marriages
First name(s) James
Sex Male
Last name Sadler
Marriage year 1882
Type Armed Forces
Country India
Marriage place Bellary
Page 315
MarriageFinder™ James Sadler married one of these people
Hannah Maud Janes, Gornelius Skittle, Anastasia Donohoe
Place type Place
Line number 53
Archive General Register Office
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
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The service record I quoted is damaged.....but I can make out his wife's name....and that he had a child called Roland in 1896......so I think you have the wrong name for the wife.Served in India.....
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The service record I quoted is damaged.....but I can make out his wife's name....and that he had a child called Roland in 1896......so I think you have the wrong name for the wife.Served in India.....
His wife's name was 100% Hannah Mary Ollier.
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Could it not be Hannah Mary on the damaged record?
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I can see that Roland's mother's maiden name is Ollier......so something is amiss...
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Could it not be Hannah Mary on the damaged record?
No.
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I can see that Roland's mother's maiden name is Ollier......so something is amiss...
The plot thickens! How very odd!
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Thier spelling from transcript
First name(s) Hannah Maude
Last name Janes
Marriage year 1882
Marriage date 11 Oct 1882
Spouse's first name James
Spouse's last name Ladler
Place Bellary
Presidency Madras
Groom's age 26
Bride's age 18
Groom's father's first name John
Groom's father's last name Ladler
Bride's father's first name Thomas
Bride's father's last name Janes
Catalogue description Parish register transcripts from the Presidency of Madras, : 1698-1948
Archive reference N-2-63
Folio number 321
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Original image is Sadler.......wife is a spinster ? Mmmmm.
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I can't see a birth for Lional/Lionel in 1894, however there is one for James L. Sadler in 1894 in the Regimental Births in Manchester, father in the Royal Artillery.
Volumes 1466 page 175.
Amended
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When was "your " Hannah born ? And where? Do you have her in a census?
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I can't see a birth for Lional/Lionel in 1894, however there is one for James L. Sadler in 1894 in the Regimental Births in Manchester, father in the Royal Artillery.
Volume 66 page 75.
I can see a bit of that record in the service record images.......baptism of a child in 1894......first name is James....possible middle name is not available due to torn record.
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Apologies, I have amended James birth volume and page numbers I didn’t notice some of the digits didn’t type.
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I think I have found his service record or I should say the remains of his record, they are severely damaged. Served 12 and a half years in India 1875 to 1891. But the wife's name you gave doesn't add up. He was, in 1882, a sergeant in the Royal Artillery in India and married Hannah Maud Janes in Bellary 11 Oct 1882. His record shows a child James born Manchester 25 May 1894 and (unreadable) child 1897. I find army births in Manchester for Hilda 1897 and Rowland (with a w) 1896 and a James L in Manchester 1894, all to a Royal Artillery father - do their dates add up? He is a Sergeant Major in 1894.
Won't go further, (the record is difficult to read and interpret, needs time) until you have a look at the wife's name.
Everyone has been working faster than me while I put this together but this all adds up with what folk have posted so I'll leave it. All revolves around the wife's name. I'd just add I find no sensible marriage in UK or India for a Hannah Ollier to anybody!
MaxD
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No birth for Hilda with mmn Ollier, only Hilda Mary in 1897, mmn Janes.
Chorlton Dec, Vol 08c page 845.
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Keep this for future reference.
First name(s) JAMES
Last name SADLER
Birth year 1856
Birth quarter 2
Registration month -
Mother's last name Skuse
District Staines
County Middlesex
Country England
Volume 3A
Page 4
Record set England & Wales Births 1837-2006
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
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No birth for Hilda with mmn Ollier, only Hilda Mary in 1897, mmn Janes.
Chorlton Dec, Vol 08c page 845.
Nice one Jebber. Thought I was going mad. 😀
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Father's name matches
First name(s) JOHN
Last name SADLER
Marriage quarter 3
Marriage year 1850
Registration month -
MarriageFinder™ JOHN SADLER married one of these people
Mary Anne Dibble, Emma Skuse
District Staines
District number -
County Middlesex
Country England
Volume 3
Volume as transcribed 3
Page number 439
Record set England & Wales Marriages 1837-2005
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
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Hannah Mary Ollier
Born in Clive, Cheshire 1859.
Hannah Mary's parents were George Ollier and Hannah Spencer.
Hannah Mary (or Mary Hannah) had children with Jemes Sadler.
They were called Lional James Sadler, Roland L Sadler and Hilda Mary Sadler.
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Laleham matches place of birth from military record.
1851 England, Wales & Scotland Census
Laleham, Staines, Middlesex & Surrey, England
John Sadler Head Married Male age 27.b 1824 Ag Lab Laleham, Middlesex, England
Emma Sadler Wife Married Female age 24 b 1827 - Horton, Buckinghamshire, England
John Sadler Son - Male age 0 b 1851 - Laleham, Middlesex, England
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I think I have found his service record or I should say the remains of his record, they are severely damaged. Served 12 and a half years in India 1875 to 1891. But the wife's name you gave doesn't add up. He was, in 1882, a sergeant in the Royal Artillery in India and married Hannah Maud Janes in Bellary 11 Oct 1882. His record shows a child James born Manchester 25 May 1894 and (unreadable) child 1897. I find army births in Manchester for Hilda 1897 and Rowland (with a w) 1896 and a James L in Manchester 1894, all to a Royal Artillery father - do their dates add up? He is a Sergeant Major in 1894.
Won't go further, (the record is difficult to read and interpret, needs time) until you have a look at the wife's name.
Everyone has been working faster than me while I put this together but this all adds up with what folk have posted so I'll leave it. All revolves around the wife's name. I'd just add I find no sensible marriage in UK or India for a Hannah Ollier to anybody!
MaxD
Do the army births show the name of the mother?
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Hannah Mary Ollier
Born in Clive, Cheshire 1859.
Hannah Mary's parents were George Ollier and Hannah Spencer.
Hannah Mary (or Mary Hannah) had children with Jemes Sadler.
They were called Lional James Sadler, Roland L Sadler and Hilda Mary Sadler.
How do you know he married her if you don't have the marriage certificate? What is the source of this statement?
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Baptism: 10 May 1896 St Matthew, Ardwick, Lancashire, England
Roland Sadler - [Child] of James Sadler & Hannah
Born: 5 Mar 1896
Abode: 28 Hyde Lodge Ardwick Green
Occupation: Drill Instructor
Baptised by: B. E. Dadley
Register: Baptisms 1890 - 1905, Page 118, Entry 944
Source: LDS Film 2148084
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Hannah Mary is listed as a servant in Staines, Middlesex in 1891
Is that near where you think James Sadler was born?
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1861 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Park Farm, Laleham, Staines, Middlesex & Surrey, England
John Sadler Head Married Male 37 1824 Agricultural Labourer Laleham, Middlesex, England
Emma Sadler Wife Married Female 34 1827 Laundress Henton, Buckinghamshire, England
John Sadler Son - Male 10 1851 - Laleham, Middlesex, England
Louisa Sadler Daughter - Female 8 1853 - Laleham, Middlesex, England
Sophia Sadler Daughter - Female 6 1855 - Laleham, Middlesex, England
James Sadler Son - Male 5 1856 - Laleham, Middlesex, England
Maria Sadler Daughter - Female 2 1859 - Laleham, Middlesex, England
Martha Sadler Daughter - Female 1 1860 - Laleham, Middlesex, England
Frank ... Boarder - Male 9 1852 - Hampshire, England
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I have never seen a military birth certificate......I would assume mother's name would be given....but not too sure if maiden name is given.
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In the 1901 census (after James Sadler died) I have Mary Hannah living back in Bowdon where lots of the family now lived with the the children....Lional James, Roland and Hilda Mary.
She is also listed as living with her brother Thomas OLLIER (who I know about)
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That baptism is a good find gortonboy.
It looks as if Lionel’s name was transposed after registration, to avoid confusion with his father. The birth certificate is an essential purchase I think.
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Maybe he came back from India and was still married but had left his wife and so any further marriage would have been bigamous. They were then just living as a married couple.
Simon
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Could somebody tell me where and how I order his records?
Do the records you have seen Gorton boy mention his death?
Thank you
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First name(s) Hannah Maude
Last name Janes
Birth year 1864
Birth date 11 Jun 1864
Baptism year 1864
Baptism date 3 Aug 1864
Place Bellary
Presidency Madras
Father's first name(s) Thomas
Father's last name Janes
Mother's first name(s) Sarah Maria
Mother's last name -
Archive reference N-2-45
Folio 178
Page -
Catalogue descriptions Parish register transcripts from the Presidency of Madras
Record set British India Office Births & Baptisms
Her father is a Sergeant major in the army.
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Could somebody tell me where and how I order his records?
Do the records you have seen Gorton boy mention his death?
Thank you
His service record is on findmypast. No mention of his death in any record I have seen.
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Do you have Hannah in any census. ¿?????????????¿
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Do you have Hannah in any census. ¿?????????????¿
In the 1901 census (after James Sadler died) I have Mary Hannah living back in Bowdon where lots of the family now lived with the the children....Lional James, Roland and Hilda Mary.
She is also listed as living with her brother Thomas OLLIER (who I know about)
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In the 1901 census (after James Sadler died) I have Mary Hannah living back in Bowdon where lots of the family now lived with the the children....Lional James, Roland and Hilda Mary.
She is also listed as living with her brother Thomas OLLIER (who I know about)
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Mary Hannah/ Hannah Mary
1861 census - Clive, Cheshire (daughter with family)
1871 census - Bowdon, Cheshire (daughter with family)
1881 census - Barton Upon Irwell, Lancashire (servant)
1891 census - Satines, Middlesex (servant)
1901 census - Bowdon, Cheshire
1901 = Leaves for America with the 3 children
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With Mary Hannah showing on the 1891 census in Staines, it makes me think she could have met James here as isn't the birth record for James that somebody found from Staines? Could it be that they just never married?
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GEORGE FRANCIS H
Last name SADLER
Birth year 1893
Birth quarter 1
Registration month -
Mother's last name Ollier
District Chorlton
County Lancashire
Country England
Volume 8C
Page 883
Record set England & Wales Births 1837-2006
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Civil Births
Collections from Great Britain, England
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MURIEL
Last name SADLER
Birth year 1898
Birth quarter 4
Registration month -
Mother's last name Janes
District Chorlton
County Lancashire
Country England
Volume 8C
Page 769
Record set England & Wales Births 1837-2006
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Civil Births
Baptism: 12 Oct 1898 St Matthew, Ardwick, Lancashire, England
Muriel Sadler - [Child] of James Sadler & Mary
Abode: 30 Hyde Road
Occupation: Serjeant-Major 7th Lanc. Art. Vol.
Notes: P.
Baptised by: J. A. Sidgwick
Register: Baptisms 1890 - 1905, Page 175, Entry 1398
Source: LDS Film 2148084
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First name(s) MURIEL
Last name SADLER
Gender Female
Birth day -
Birth month -
Birth year 1898
Age 0
Death quarter 4
Death year 1898
District Chorlton
County Lancashire
Volume 8C
Page 464
Country England
Record set England & Wales Deaths 1837-2007
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Loose end - army births is an index only (on FindMyPast) and shows the regiment only of the father. Certificates are available for all from the GRO.
MaxD
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This is getting so confusing ??? ??? ??? ???
How do you think I am best going to solve this mystery?
Can anybody help me??
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I think you need to get some of the children's birth certificates.
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As an aside....just wondered if you would like a photo of his gravestone? If he has one. I live not far from Southern cemetery,and could have a look for you? .
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Hiya
Thanks so much but Ive already been to the cemetery and unfortunately he does not have a gravestone.
The army service record that you found is confusing me. You said that you can see one of his children listed and that the mothers maiden name is Ollier yet the wife is listed as somebody else?
Are you able to see any of the others children's names on the record?
Thank you
Adam
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As posted...some of the children's maiden names are Ollier...others are Janes. This is from the GRO records...not from the service record. On the service record...he married Hannah Maud Janes. In the service record you can make out some details which make me certain that the record does belong to your man. E.G. he is in the right regiment...right rank...served in India....has children born in Manchester etc. You really need to view the service record yourself. I have sent you a pm.