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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Staffordshire => Topic started by: angel~eyes on Sunday 15 July 18 17:20 BST (UK)
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I have recently discovered the brother of one of my ancestors' parents were Henry Taylor (key latch maker) and Louisa Baker and that they married in 1852 after my Great, Great Grandmother Harriet was born in 1850/51 in Willenhall. Harriet appears on the 1861/1871 census as their daughter but I cannot find them on the 1851 census, I may have found Henry as a lodger elsewhere but I cannot find Harriet or Louisa on the 1851 or Louisa on the 1841. My first thoughts were that Louisa b c 1833 was not Harriet's mother now I am wondering if there was no marriage as Louisa was under age and possibly sent away to have Harriet. Any help on this would be much appreciated x
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There is a birth for a Harriet Taylor, with a mother's maiden name of Baker in the March quarter 1853, Wolverhampton Registration District (I think this is the correct District covering Willenhall ?).
I know this seems a bit late from what you have said -- but this could be a late 1852 birth registered early the following year. It might be worth splashing out £6 on that PDF birth cert from the GRO -- just to check if it's the correct Harriet.
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I'm a bit confused here
You say that Henry is the brother of one of your ancestors so why would your great Grandmother Harriet be with them - surely she would be with her own parents? also I cannot find the marriage of Henry and Louisa in 1852 - there is a marriage in 1853 of a William Taylor who may have married either an Ann Jordan or a Hannah Baker but that is the only one even close
Willow x
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There is a marriage of a Louisa Baker to a Henry Butler in Willenhall in 1852.
I can't seem to find them on either the 1861 or the 1871 Censuses. Do you have a Ref for them?
Emeltom
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Please can you show me where this came from and the full ref thanks M x
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If you are referring to the Butler/Baker marriage the GRO ref is June 1852 Wolverhampton 6b 484
They married at St Giles, Willenhall and an image of the marriage register can be seen on findmypast.
Emeltom
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There is a Leweser Baker aged 4 on the 1841 father George who might relate to the Butler/Baker marriage.
Willow x
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If she was born 1837 then she cannot have been 'of full age' as stated on the marriage entry in 1852 - or was 15 'of full age' in those days?
Emeltom
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It does happen I know of one I found and she was 13 and they still stated 'of full age' George is listed as deceased on that marriage so he couldn't confirm it
Willow x
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Angel Eyes -- I am really confused.
If you didn't know the ref of the marriage of Henry and Louisa how did you know they were married in 1852 (which they were)?
Also - do you think the birth of the Harriet registered in first quarter of 1853 (mentioned in my previous message) may be the correct one?
I think Willow's find of a 'Leweser' Baker with father George in 1841 might be a good bet as they were living in Willenhall and her mother's name was 'Harriotte'. (The youngest child looks like she is named Wimthread -- suspect it should be Winifred!
Clearly the Enumerator in this District didn't have to take a spelling test before being let loose on the census!!
Hence 'Leweser' named her first born daughter after her mother, which seems logical. The fact that she was only 4 in 1841 is a bit of a worry though!
The parents on that census - George Baker and Harriet (although spelt incorrectly) may have married in 1831 in Wolverhampton - maiden name of Harriet was Starkey.
I would suggest obtaining the birth cert for the 1853 Harriett -- and if you can -- access Staffordshire Marriages via the A - Z of Record Sets on Find My Past to see the marriage of Henry Butler and Louisa Baker in Willenhall in 1852.
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Do you have Harriet's marriage certificate? who did she marry? if so what does it say we maybe able to glean more information from that and work backwards
Willow x
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Right is this the marriage for Harriet?
27.10.1879 St Stephens Willenhall
John Lowndes aged 30 locksmith of Willenhall father John Lowndes locksmith to Harriet Taylor aged 29 of Willenhall father Henry Taylor Jobbing smith
Willow x
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very strangely I have been looking for baptisms of children of Henry and Louisa and the only ones I have found are
20.3.1887 at St Stephens (address given as Primrose Street Willenhall George listed as a smith)
James Henry born 1.11.1880
Mary Maria born 14.4.1860
so where is Mary Maria on the 1861 census?
Willow x
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Sorry for the confusion I was asking for ref to birth for Harriet. My sister obtained James (her brothers) birth and his parents were down as Henry Taylor and Louisa Baker. So we knew them to be his parents a marriage has been found for Henry and Louisa in 1852. Harriet was married to John Lowndes her father is Henry Taylor. We have them on all census except for 1851 (although I found a Henry as a lodger that fit) I can't find out if Louisa was Harriets Mother as well but know Henry is her father. We are trying now to link Harriet to Louisa and get back with Louisa. Hope this is clearer M x
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The Lewisa sounds pretty good. Thank you for this and my sister and I agree it's possible to be Harriet baptised in 1853 . We had been puzzling over this lot a good many years x
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Harriet 's birth was REGISTERED in the March quarter of 1853, Wolverhampton Registration District -- it is not a baptism I was talking about. (To be honest I haven't found a baptism, but someone else may do).
Unless a baptism IS found -- why not order that birth cert - it will only cost you £6. I know I keep nagging about this - but you were worried that Louisa may not have been Harriet's mother - this certificate will either confirm that she was - or we can 'eliminate it from enquiries.'
I am so sorry to keep banging on about it! (Now you can see what my husband has to put up with.)
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Thank you we will get that sent off. No I nag as well. I have been working on this link almost 40 years but no longer in the local area will see if my Sister can pop into the archives and look up baptism. Thanks again got the feeling she was under age and that's why there's a problem x
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I cannot find an 1852 marriage between a Henry Taylor and a Louisa Baker. In fact I cannot find a Henry Taylor marrying anyone called Louisa or Baker.
Could someone put me out of my misery and give me the marriage details please.
Emeltom
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Emeltom == I suspect this should be Henry Butler and Louisa Baker. (Though I could be wrong! I often am.)
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Yes, that's the only marriage I can find and the register entry definitely says Butler. However I am still rather confused. If Henry Taylor is the brother of a direct ancestor how come his daughter is a gt gt grandmother or have I missed something?
Emeltom
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Henry is definantly Harriets Father and on her brothers birth cert it says Henry and Louisa Taylor (nee Baker). It's the 1861/1871 census has Harriet as their daughter. My sister says the marriage between Henry and Louisa was on 31st May 1852 at St Giles church M
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Harriet is the direct ancestor confirmed I now need to confirm Henry Taylor and Louisa Baker M
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Emeltom --- I know. I am confused as well.
However the birth Reg was definitely for Harriet Taylor with a mother's maiden name of Baker.
It's the marriage on FindMyPast which was a Henry Butler to Louisa Baker. Her father on that marriage was George Baker - so the Baker family in 1841 are a possibility as the mother was a Harriett (mis-spelt)
It's not beyond the realms of possibility that it was a wrong surname on the marriage I suppose.
On the 1861 Census - Henry Taylor's occupation of 'Jobbing Smith' is identical to Henry Butler's occupation on the marriage certificate -also Jobbing Smith. In 1861 Louisa is shown as 10 years younger than Henry - at 26. If 4 in 1841 was her correct age -- this is slightly 'out'.
In addition checking one of the other children's births for Henry Taylor and Louisa - the maiden name is Baker, I strongly suspect now that the surname for Henry may be wrong on the marriage cert and should be Taylor.
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The image of the marriage entry definitely says Butler as does the image of the GRO register and I agree that all the children are Taylor with mmn Baker, so obviously an error has crept in. However I still do not understand why, if Henry Taylor is the brother of a direct ancestor, how he can be the father of a gt gt grandmother, also a direct ancestor.
Emeltom
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If the surname is wrong on the marriage maybe it is why we couldn't find him I may need to look at Henry's parents maybe his mother was a Butler M
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Henry is my direct Ancestors father not her brother. I have confirmed Harriet but not Henry as yet so he is only a potential direct ancestor. It was one of Harriets brothers gave us Louisa maiden name M
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The brother of Harriet is James and his parents are Henry Taylor and Louisa Baker - they are confirmed as James parents but not as Harriets yet M
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Henry Taylor's birthplace looks to be Darleston in 1851 and Darleston in 1871 -- he is lodging in Willenhall in 1851 and a Blacksmith - at least I think that is him. Age in 1851 given as 30!
(I was checking to see if he had perhaps changed his surname -- OR it was just an error on the marriage)
Haven't yet looked for a baptism or an 1841 entry -- that would be useful.
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Sorry for all the confusion on my part but in your first post you did specify brother of a direct ancestor, and the Taylor/Butler confusion hasn't helped.
Emeltom
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In 1841 Henry Taylor was a 'Jobbing Smith' in Willenhall -- looks to be lodging with miscellaneous people. Hence - the same occupation as at marriage and on a later census.
Looks even more like an error in the surname at marriage. Does anyone else agree with this assumption or am I going off on one!
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Yes I have 're read my first post and I'm not very clear dyslexic I'm afraid. That's the same census I found Henry on in 1851 he gives his birthplace as Derbyshire so maybe he had something to hide M
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In 1841 Henry Taylor was a 'Jobbing Smith' in Willenhall -- looks to be lodging with miscellaneous
Looks even more like an error in the surname at marriage. Does anyone else agree with this assumption or am I going off on one!
I think its a mistake as Pennines says as they are both illiterate so probably wouldn't have realised that certificate was wrong.
Henry doesn't help as his age wavers so much but interestingly there are two baptisms in Measham Derbyshire
23.3.1817 Henry parents Henry and Ann
27.6.1824 Henry parents Henry and Sarah
There is a Henry and Sarah Taylor living in Walsall 1851 both born Measham
Willow x
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Willow -- those baptisms are really interesting!
There is only one census in which he has put Measham, Derbyshire as his birth place - on the others I have seen, he has shown Darlaston twice - and then Willenhall. I haven't been able to find a baptism in Staffordshire though. So I think you have tracked his birthplace.
As you say his age varies so much. His birth year, at what I think is his death in 1893 -- is c. 1818. So I rather think the 1817 one in Measham might be it. He was considerably older than Louisa and the couple were probably trying to narrow the gap.
In 1841 his age, rounded down, is 20 - ie 1821. At this point he had no reason to give a wrong age, so if he was 24 by June 1841 (ie born early 1817 or late 1816) -- that would bring his age to 20 on that census.
There is a Henry, widower in 1851 still in Measham -- living with a daughter Sarah --- checking Sarah's baptism, her parents were also Henry and Ann --- so I think that is the other potential father Henry, who you found.
Looking at baptisms for children of Henry and Ann -- there were also a William and a John -- and Henry and Louisa Taylor did name 2 of their sons William and John (not that it proves anything - they are pretty common names. I am grasping at straws!)
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Update on this Harriet Taylors parents marriage was the Louisa Baker/Henry Butler one. I have now confirmed this by a) a baptism in Measham confirming his mother as Buckley (perhaps mistranscribed as Butler) b) the marriage cert confirmed his father's forename and from there I found a marriage for his parents in Measham mothers maiden being Buckley c) I had a dna match through Henrys mother Sarah Buckley.
Thank you all once again sorry its took so long to reply M