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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Gloucestershire => Topic started by: GWestbury on Monday 27 August 18 03:52 BST (UK)
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John Westbury, was born in Gloucestershire, England 1824. Before emigrating to Australia in early 1860’s involved in Farming. He arrived in Australia in 1864 Died in Tenterfield NSW Australia 1894, married Hannah Hoult 1866, purchased farm Leeches Gully 1869 had family two sons John & Richard
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Not quite sure what info you are looking for but the Gloustershire Baptism Index only has one John Westbury baptised in 1824.
John Westbury baptised 11 July 1824 Eastleach Turville, parents Thomas, Labourer, and Mary.
Emeltom
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? 1851 Census, Eastleach Turville
WESTBURY
Ann - Widow 48 - Nurse - all born Eastleach Turville
John - son, unmarried aged 26, Ag Lab
Elizabeth - daughter - 21
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My abject apologies - parents should have read Thomas and Anne.
Please disregard the name Mary - I haven't a clue where that came from.
Emeltom
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Seems to be the Family in 1841;
Ann Westbury, 35
Mary Ann Westbury, 20
Richard Westbury, 14
Elizabeth Westbury, 11
Sarah Westbury, 9
John is a Ag Lab at a separate address
Richard above on 1841 married twice, 1st Marriage 31 May 1852 to Sarah Sellars, his Father Thomas a Labourer on the M/C.
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That John, Wife Ann, Daug Cassandra arrived on the "Castilian" 16 Jun 1858.
His age 33, Farm Lab, Parents Thomas/Ann Westbury, Mother in EastLeach, Methodist, could Read/Write
Wife Ann age 40, Parents Richard/Mary Page deceased, could read
Cassandra, infant, Parents John/Ann on board
Both John/Cassandra of East Leach, Glous
GRO Birth Reg confirms Cassandras Mothers mn as Page.
NSW BMD has Cassandras Death Reg 1858, Parents John/Ann
There is also this John;
John Westbury
England and Wales Census, 1841
birth: 1827 Gloucestershire
residence: 1841 Forthampton, Gloucestershire, England
other: Charles Westbury, Mary Westbury, Thomas Westbury, James Philps, William Handey
But this John is a Shoemaker
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Hi Trish 1120,
I am trying to trace my family - John Westbury above was my great Grandfather, who was born in Gloucestershire, England 1824. He emigrated to Australia around 1864, can't find shipping or passenger records. John married Hannah Hoult in 1866, his son John Westbury was my grandfather was born in Tenterfield or Leeches Gully NSW around 1875 and died in Lidcombe Sydney 1936. I am trying to trace my family roots backwards.
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So just to tidy up the dates:
John Westbury m Hannah Hoult 1876 Tenterfield NSW Reg No 4288 NSW BDM
She died 1952 Long Jetty NSW, widow, Will administered by W Westbury (see below)
Chn born to John and Hannah all at Tenterfield
Wm b 1880, Thomas b 1883,Eliza b 1884, Sarah b 1889, Robert b 1891.
John Westbury d 1936 NSW age 60(so born c 1876) occupation Crane driver. Parents John and Hannah Reg no 5319 NSW BDM Can't see his birth registered on NSW BDM or Ancestry.
Stephanie from Australia
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Wow Stephanie from Australia,
Thanks for the updates, were/how did you get the details?
I have read an old newspaper Tenterfield Star 1955 refers to an interview of a Richard Westbury, Extracts from Reminiscences (1942) by N. Crawford Richard claimed to be John Westbury's younger brother, born around 1879/80 and that was where I started my search of their father John Westbury, who was born in Gloucestershire, England 1824.
Grahame Westbury Tumbi Umbi Australia
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So you dont have a arrival for John 1864?
The 1824 John born Glous was married when he arrived 1858.
May I ask how you know he was born Gloucestershire?
The Marriage to Hannah Hoult was 1876 not 1866 as you noted.
So he may have been Widowed, do you have the Marriage Cert?
Aaah, Death Reg;
WESTBURY ANNE 7042/1873*** AGE 55 YEARS DIED TENTERFIELD
So it looks to me that the 1858 arrival I posted is him with 1st Wife.
She dies 1873 and he remarried 1876.
I also noticed John/Hannah name a Daug Eliza Cassandra Westbury which cant be a coincidence as John/Ann had a Daug Cassandra who died.
Trish :)
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Also on the Ship 1858 with John/Ann/Cassandra were;
Kilminster?
Thomas 15
Frances 13
Both born Highworth, Wiltshire
Mother on Board, Father dead, Parents Thomas/Ann
So Ann page must have married Thomas Kilminster and then John Westbury (although I cant find a Marriage yet)
The surname is hard to read though.
1st Marriage of FreeBMD;
June 1841
Kilminster Thomas Swindon &c 8 533
Mary Ann PAGE on same page
Ok Kilminster seems correct
Frances Kilminster
Gender: Female
Baptism Date: 3 Aug 1845
Baptism Place: Highworth, Wiltshire, England
Father: Thomas Kilminster
Mother: Ann Kilminster
1851 Census
Highworth, Wiltshire
Thomas Kilmister, 59, Head, Mar, Master Plasterer, born Highworth
Ann Kilmister, 33, Wife, Mar, born Fyfield, Gloucestershire*****
Thomas Kilmister, 8, Son, born Highworth
Frances Kilmister, 6, Daug, born Highworth
John Hall, 15, Apprentice
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Name: Frances Kilmins
Spouse Name: John Locke
Marriage Date: 1863
Marriage Place: New South Wales
Registration Place: Tenterfield, New South Wales
Registration Year: 1863
Registration Number: 2966
Marriage Reg;
Sept 1856
KILMISTER Ann Highworth 5a 26
John WESTBURY on same page ;D
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Wiltshire Marriages are on Ancestry
31 May 1841
Mary Ann PAGE's father was : Richard PAGE
Both of Easthrop
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Thanks Capetown.
It all adds up :)
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I dont seem to be able to find Eastleach Turville records on line.
A Tree has Thomas Westburys Wife as Ann Tuffly.
How sad looks like Johns Mother died 2 years after they left for OZ.
WESTBURY, ANN, age 58
GRO Reference: 1860 J Quarter in NORTHLEACH Volume 06A Page 223
Sorry forgot to welcome you too Rootschat GWestbury :)
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Ancestry has the Eastleach Turville records on and
Ann WESTBURY was buried 21 April 1860 aged 50 : Richard G Frampton, Curate.
Thomas WESTBURY was buried 8 January 1832 aged 31
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Adding some more to the mix...
There is a James Westbury b 8 March 1872 parents John and Hannah who (Trovenla) was best man at his brother Richard's wedding 19/7/1901 ref Tenterfield newspaper
And also gave away the bride, his sister Eliza 30/5/1911 at her wedding.
This same James Westbury has a christening date St Mary's Church Tenterfield 17/7/1906 which ? could be a transcription error? Did he change churches?
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Hi Trish,
Thank you for the welcome. Well, you have found a lot of information. All my information came to me after my father, Harold Westbury died in 2005, he was born 1916 his parents were John Westbury and Annie Elizabeth Westbury(nee Collins). I was given a Tenterfield Star newspaper clipping of Richard Westbury recounting his family's life as pioneers in Leech's Gully near Tenterfield, he was apparently younger brother of John Westbury was born 1876 in Tenterfield NSW and died 21 March 1936 aged 60. You asked about changes in church? It would seem that after John Westbury's death in 1894, Hannah Westbury made a gift one guinea on 31st July 1914 to assist building Catholic Convent? I found this by accident in another article in Tenterfield Star newspaper. So she may have changed or reverted back to the Roman Catholic religion? However my grandfather, John Westbury and my Father, Harold Westbury were both Church of England. My father was the organist at St Thomas Church of England church Enfield in Sydney. I am still trying to clarify where they all fit in? How do you have these details and how does the Westbury family interest you?
Cheers Grahame
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Hi Grahame,
I am not related to the Westburys at all. I am in Australia though!
Rootschat is a community of helpful people from all over the World.
The info I found on John Westbury and Parents was from records available on-line.
Capetown found you records on Ancestry and Shume (Stephanie) Australian records.
Trish :)
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Marriage from Anc.
Thomas WESTBURY
Ann TUFFLEY
17 Oct 1821, Eastleach Turville, Gloucestershire
Bachelor/Spinster
THOS Westbury was Baptised 2 Feb 1800 to HENRY/MARY
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Baptism at Eastleach Turville - parents: Henry & Mary WESTBURY
Heny - 9 December 1781 - Henry married 8 November 1809 at E.T. to Anne NEWY **
Mary - 11 January 1781
Richd - 26 October 1783 **
Ginney/Jenney - 9 March 1788 (see baptisms at Highworth below)
Mary - 10 November 1793
Thos - 2 February 1800
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** 1841 Census Eastleach Martin
WESTBURG (on Ancestry)
Henery - 60 Ag Lab
Ann - 60
William - 28
Robert - 19
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Henry WESTBURY age 78 buried 21 September 1834 at Eastleach Turville
Mary the wife of Henry WESTBURY Snr - age 73 (c1758) - buried 5 May 1831.
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?
Ancestry does have marriage at Highworth, Wiltshire
30 October 1780
Henry WESTBURY
residence: Sojourner
Mary PAGE :
residence: Sojourner * * means one who resides temporarily
by banns
Notes: In Banns, Mary is "is of this parish: but register says both are inhabitants
**
There is a baptism at Highworth, Wiltshire of Mary PAGE - born 20 June 1758 and christened 22 June 1758 parents: Richd. (labourer) & Martha
siblings
Richard - 24 August
Jenny - born 22 January - christened 25 January 1760/1
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Hi Trish1120
Thank you so much for all the help, I really appreciate it. I am also thankful to Capetown and Shume (Stephanie) for both your input too. Are either of you part of the Westbury family?
The way I accidentally came upon this site, I was following a guy, Nick Westbury, who placed posts maybe 8 years ago looking for any info on the Westbury family. Nick was looking around 1400s especially Lord Westbury MP and legal reformer 1457/8 who is quoted for his judgement to law student even today. But it seems his name was taken up from peerage records and was not a Westbury through his genealogy records. As I am new to the Family Tree research I need to now go through all this a see if I can make sense of it and then find out what is my next logical step.
Starting with an old newspaper is not always the best place to start as you find, as I have, the errors you assumed were facts.
Thanks again to all of you for this great assistance.
Kind regards
Grahame
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Go over it all and make up a chart (Family Tree) and if you need any help just add it to this query in the future.
Trish :)
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Thanks Trish,
That is what I plan to do, again I really appreciate your help.
As this is my first family search attempt I am very happy where I have come to, even though it is totally not what I expected or have been told through family conversations with older aunts when I was very young, and that is a long, long time ago.
Initially I tried using Ancestry.com and paid for a search of my family history and what came back was totally incorrect and had nothing to do with my family, so I have not ventured into that site again. Anyway I will get to it!
Kind regards
Grahame
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Hi Grahame
My Granfather Colin Westbury born 1915 said that he went to a will reading in the 1950s and all the relatives of John Westbury born 1876 and James born 1873 were told to leave as they were Hannah`s children from another father , that John born 1824 had raised as his own .....i cant find their births .
regards Steve
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Hi Steve,
Thanks for this. As I understand, John Westbury Born 1824 Eastleach Turville, Gloucestershire, England, baptised 11 July 1824 Eastleach Turville, he married Ann Kilmister at Highworth, Wiltshire, Sept 1856. They had a daughter Cassandra. They embarked on a sea voyage from Liverpool to Sydney, Australia on the ship "Castilian" arriving in Sydney 16 June 1858. Cassandra Westbury died, her death registered at Raymond Terrace district, NSW 1858. Ann WESTBURY died 1873, AGE 55 YEARS in TENTERFIELD NSW. John Westbury then married Hannah Hoult in Tenterfield in 1876. Hannah Hoult was originally from East End London, England. John Westbury, Farmer, died Tenterfield 1894 aged 70 years.
John Westbury b. 1876 died 1936 aged 60. Hannah Westbury, Hannah died 1952 Long Jetty NSW, widow. Her Will was administered by W Westbury - Children born to John and Hannah all at Tenterfield, were William b 1880, Thomas b 1883, Elizabeth 1884, Sarah b 1889, Robert b 1891. (no mention of John Westbury b. 1876 or Richard). However I am aware that Hannah changed her religion from Church of England to Roman Catholic, so maybe that caused a family split?
I am unaware of your grandfather, Colin Westbury or James Westbury? Also I have found a Newspaper article from the Tenterfield Star, Monday 6 June 1955 by N. Crawford - Extracts from Reminiscences by RICHARD WESTBURY in (1942), Richard was then of resident at Wallangarra Qld. Richard b. 1880 said he was younger brother of John Westbury b. 1876 and his father John Westbury b. 1824 in England, was early pioneer settler of Leech’s Gully. Richard said "My father, John Westbury married Hannah Hoult in Tenterfield some time in 1876". John married Hannah after his first wife died in 1873. Hannah Hoult was originally from the East End of London, England.
I was also unaware that Hannah Westbury had remarried as I was under the impression that she continued to use the name Hannah Westbury widow, when she died at Long Jetty NSW 1952?
So how do you fit into the Westbury family, Steve? and who was Colin Westbury's father? Also do you know how old was Hannah Westbury when she died in 1952?
Hope this is of some use? Cheers Grahame
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Hi Grahame
My Grandfathers dad was Robert Alexander Westbury born 1891 Leeches Gully, Tenterfield he married May Elizabeth Werner 1914 Newcastle , Colin was born 1915 Newcastle he married Dorothy Ellen Smith 1940 Tamworth ,they had a daughter Diane Westbury born 1943 she married my dad Alan Hayward 1959 Coopernook ....i Stephen Hayward born 1962 Taree....Johns 1st wife was born Mary Ann Page she married Thomas Kilmister 28th sept 1841 Wiltshire......Thomas 15 and Frances 13 Kilmister came out to Australia with them in 1858....it has John Westbury marrying Hannah on the 1 st of September 1876 Wesleyan church Tenterfield.....says he was 52 and she was 21 .......on Johns Death cert ...died 3rd March 1894 Leeches Gully...it says his children on death cert were ...Richard 15 ,William 13 ,Thomas 10,Eliza 9,Elizabeth 7,Sarah 4 and Robert 3......the informant Hannah Westbury has no mention of James born 1873 and John born 1876.....it has James Westbury age 85 when he died Mascot ...puts him around the 1872 /73 when born..it says Tenterfield place of birth......i will have to check with my mum re the will reading in the 1950s ....for some reason i thought it was a uncle not Hannahs as she was the mother of all of them Westbury or not......ill have a read through my records and talk to my mum ...thanks for info ..
regards Steve
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Hi Steve,
John Westbury born 1876 and James born 1872/3 were told to leave as they were Hannah`s children from another father? This is all news to me, but it makes sense as to why we never had cousins or other relatives from John's family. It makes you feel a bit grubby in some ways?
Life in Tenterfield, in those days, would have been very hard and I guess family ties needed to be strong, but Hannah sounds like she did not value or support her children from previous fathers, I assume out of wedlock? Hence those children were not given any acknowledgement for inheritance or otherwise, seems a bit harsh. That must have made life even more difficult for those people!
Cheers Grahame
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hi Grahame
Mate it would have been tough times back in the day ,Leeches Gully was poor land according to my granfather .....i was speaking to my mum ...she said the will reading was Uncle Sonny [William Westbury ] who died 1960 ...she said uncle Sonny didnt have children was married......mum said 7 cousins who were male and sons of his Westbury brothers turned up ....2 of the male cousins were told to leave as they were not of Westbury blood ..... Mum said when the Aunt died later that the assets were divided again amonst the cousins......just wrong on all levels .....Mum has been trying to find the answers behind Hannah and her children.......we were hoping one of the older members would know ...afraid this may have gone to the grave .
regards Steve
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Hi Steve,
So you are saying I might not be a true Westbury after all?? Having grown up knowing all about Leeches Gully and Tenterfield, that is a bit hard to hear!
I don't know if you are aware, but I did a bit of searching today and found that Hannah Hoult came out to Australia in 1857 with her family as an Assisted Immigrant (she was a 1 year old) on the Ship "Regina" so I assume her parents were shipped out here. That must have been very hard also. John Westbury purchased 130 acres in Leeches Gully in 1869 and worked the land without sons to help maybe Anne his first wife, who died rather young at age 55years in 1873 found it too difficult also.
Thanks for all your help, I can't find anyone else who knows anything further.
Cheers Grahame
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Hi Grahame
i have some records re Hannah Hoults Family her father James was born around 1827 Derbyshire ?? not confirmed ....James died 1900 Tenterfield .....he married Eliza Rayson who was born Bennett 1818 Hodderson, Hertfordshire she had married Benjamin Rayson 1842 St Martins ,Middlesex.........Eliza married James Hoult 1849 St Pancras Middlesex .....they had a daughter Eliza 1849 St Pancras......a son William James born 1852 St Pancras ....Hannah born 26th June 1855 Islington ,Middlesex...came out to Australia and had another son John Hoult born 1858 Maitland.....Eliza Hoult died 1861 Stoney Creek ,Maitland ....James ended up in the Drake area between Tenterfield and Casino for a few years....as you can see Hannah would have had a tough life mother gone when she was 6 years old ...then having to raise all those children of her own when John died...Family History has lots of hidden skeletons ....i have found murder /suicide with gran parents from my gran mothers side ......another added Smith after his last name of Eustace he was hiding from a 1st wife with 3 of his children that had come to live out Australia 1880s...even my last name Hayward we feel that the ggg gran father hasnt been quite truthful....thats why i have turned to DNA to try and solve some of the mystery's....take care mate ...
regards Steve your 3rd cousin twice removed
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Hi Steve,
So you are saying I might not be a true Westbury after all?? Having grown up knowing all about Leeches Gully and Tenterfield, that is a bit hard to hear!
Cheers Grahame
Your initial stumbling block seems to be that you have not purchased certificates for the marriage or death of Hannah WESTBURY (nee HOULT)
If you had the date of her marriage at the outset 1876, correctly, not 1866 (when she would have been about 10 or 11 years old ) which you could have seen on the online index and confirmed on a purchased certificate, you would have noted that John WESTBURY, by his birthdate, was ex-nuptial as was James.
This would have given rise to immediate doubts as to his paternity.
I doubt you will discover his father.
Sue
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Hi Sue,
Great to here from you? No I wasn't purchasing the marriage certificate of John Westbury and Hannah Holt, I already knew they were married 1876 (I was originally misled) I was corrected by a Roots Chat person last month. I originally went through Ancestry and paid out a considerable sum for a complete family tree only to be told a whole lot of rubbish about my relatives in USA and nothing about my actual UK relatives. The whole family were aware of John's birthplace in UK.
Cheers Grahame
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Hi Steve,
Thanks again, more revelations - Do you know why Hannah Hoult's family came out to Australia, was James Hoult convicted of a crime ? They can't have been too wealthy with the deal they had? Anyway, John Westbury sounds like an OK guy, but the way the wills went seemed a bit unfair!
Thanks for considering me as your 3rd cousin twice removed, that means a lot. How is your mum feeling about the family mystery now?
Cheers Mate
Grahame
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hi Graham
Mum was hoping that a family member like you may have been told ...mum said all the Westbury girl cousins were disappointed with the will how it was written ............i have marriage ,death amd other relevant certificates ....more than happy to to take pics of or copy and send to address....im waiting on a marriage certificate from UK for Hannah's dad James ...hoping to get his Dads name so i can look further ....i have 2 half brothers and one half sister ...they are still my brothers and sisters....actually i think you may only have 2 generations between John senior and Yourself ...which makes us second cousins twice removed ...im off to work ...take care
regards Steve
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Hi Steve,
Thanks again, more revelations - Do you know why Hannah Hoult's family came out to Australia, was James Hoult convicted of a crime ? They can't have been too wealthy with the deal they had?
Grahame
The HOULT family were assisted immigrants to NSW.
The original passenger list is available to view on Ancestry. James was an Agricultural Labourer .
The colony at that time needed manpower and a strong young population to grow and schemes were advertised to attract eligible people with the the offer of assistance for the voyage. This was ususally paid out through labour and service for a specified time on arrival.
Convict transportation to NSW had ceased some years prior.
James HOULT brought his family willingly as did hundreds of thousands of others looking for a new life.
It is very generous of Steve to offer copies of certificates he has. I think you will find the information a great help in your searches and the seeking of such certified information is the proper way to thorough family history research.
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hi Graham
............i have marriage ,death amd other relevant certificates ....more than happy to to take pics of or copy and send to address....
regards Steve
Hi Steve,
Out of curiosity ;D
On the HOULT/ WESTBURY marriage certificate, what "marital condition" is given for Hannah?
Widow, spinster....?
Sue
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:)
http://indexes.records.nsw.gov.au/ebook/list.aspx?series=NRS5316&item=4_4795&ship=Castilian That's a link to the passenger list for the Castilian, in 1858, John Westbury onboard.
http://indexes.records.nsw.gov.au/ebook/list.aspx?series=NRS5316&item=4_4794&ship=Regina
That's a link to the passenger list, for the Regina, for the HOULT family in 1857, no charge, free to download etc, from the NSW State Archives.
Transporting convicted persons beyond the seas to New South Wales effectively ceased in 1840, but there were two chaps with the surname HOULT who had arrived under sentence, Edward, per the Royal Admiral back in 1792, and Henry per the Asia (5) in 1825. Two with the surname HOULT arrived as garrison soldiers ... Thomas arrived with the Second Fleet and Richard arrived 40th Regiment in 1824.
Re the surname HOULT, when checking NSW records, you should consider the lack of standard spelling ... and the longhand script ... so do always consider HOLT and HALT and other variations.
Re marriages registered in the 1870s, 80s, etc in NSW regional localities including Tenterfield, but anywhere outside of the Sydney Metro area ...
Civil registration commenced March 1856. For decades after that a dispute rumbled along between the colonial admin and the churches, simply because of the depth of detail the civil admin required on the m.c. registrations. In many instances the NSW BDMs records are deficient, lack the vital info family historians rely on. This is because the NSW BDM Registrar General did NOT receive a full record of the marriage, ie what is on the parish register is often far more detailed than the NSW BDM cert. This very well known aspect is noted on the NSW BDM website, and most family history groups in years past were busy transcribing their local churches records.
Here is a thread that may help determine where to find the original church register for the marriage in 1876, registered Tenterfield.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=546609.0
I suggest that an official transcription of the Tenterfield marriage will have all the info as per the NSW BDM register, and is a better option for the official transcribers will be familiar with the handwriting of the scribe.
JM
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Hi Sue
It has spinster, married 1st September 1876 Tenterfield
Its John Westburys death certificate 1894 that gives away the story ,the informant Hannah Westbury doesn't name her two oldest boys James and John on it ,she names Richard the 3rd eldest as Johns eldest child to her .
regards Steve
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:)
It can be significant to know that the actual question asked was about the issue of the marriage, so if a child was born out of wedlock, regardless of if a child of the deceased, that child is often NOT listed as a child of the marriage. It depended on how strictly the funeral director interpreted that question ... afterall, it was the funeral director who completed the paperwork that went off to the NSW BDM.
So, just because those two were not listed as issue of the marriage, does not mean that they were definitely NOT his... It leaves the question still open... :)
ADD in 1935 or thereabouts NSW law changed allowing for legitimising the birth status of children born prior to their parents formal marriage...
JM
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Hi
The Will reading of William Westbury 1960 [one of Johns sons ]he had no children so his estate was left to the sons of his brothers ....7 cousins turned up ....2 had to leave as they were told there father were not John.... my granfather Colin Westbury born 1915 was one of the cousins that stayed ....it was then he found out that John and James were not John Westburys but Hannahs form another father ..
regards Steve
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Hi
The Will reading of William Westbury 1960 [one of Johns sons ]he had no children so his estate was left to the sons of his brothers ....7 cousins turned up ....2 had to leave as they were told there father were not John.... my granfather Colin Westbury born 1915 was one of the cousins that stayed ....it was then he found out that John and James were not John Westburys but Hannahs form another father ..
regards Steve
Sorry Steve, but, regardless of who attends the reading of William's will, umm, as gently as my poor wordsmith skills provide ... May I note that who attends a reading of William's will in 1960 (or ever) actually has no real bearing of who were the legimate sons of John who died in 1894.
Have you obtained the probate/deceased estate file for the chap who died in 1894 ... It may well be that he specifically states who were his children ... his will should be in the files at NSW archives... Alternatively It may well be that John Westbury was not the father but there's nothing that's been posted on this thread so far, that actually cannot be explained to show that John may have fathered them prior to marrying their mum.
ADD
The inheritance laws in NSW were sometimes difficult to understand, but the beneficiaries of a valid will did not need to be legitimate children to inherit. The names missing from the 1894 death registration was part of a different set of NSW laws.
JM
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This is a link to a thread on the Australian Resources board where an RChatter goes to the NSW archives and uses her digitised camera to take photos of various files for enquirers.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=703011.0
There are other RChatters who also live in Sydney and go to the Archives at Kingswood on a regular basis, and others who go to the State Library in the Sydney CBD and others who go to other archival institutions to look up for various enquirers near to their localities.
JM
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:)
Still a cloudy issue ...
Intestate 1894 - NSW law at that time usually meant that if there were legitimate children of a marriage, that they were recognised as entitled to be considered as beneficiaries but NOT illegitimate children.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/13945680 Sydney Morning Herald 26 March 1894
ADD
In tho Estate of JOHN WESTBURY, late of Leech's Gully, near Tenterfield, in the colony of New South Wales, Farmer, deceased, intestate.
APPLICATION will be made after fourteen days from the pubiication hereof that Administration if the Estate of the abovementioned deceased may be granted to HANNAH WESTBURY, the Widow of the said deceased.
JM
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Hi jm,
Thank you for the advice and info, especially the newspaper article. How do you find these?
Cheers Grahame
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The National Library of Australia has an online presence known as TROVE ... and it is a treasure ...
here's the main live link to trove https://trove.nla.gov.au/
Within that, there many other sub-sections, including
digitised newspapers freely available to search and download, NO CHARGE
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/?q=
JM
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I wonder what information is given for Hannah's children on her d.c.
JM
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HI JM
I can see where you are going with this , i have sent away for the Deceased Estates paperwork .
cheers Steve
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Hi Steve,
Thanks for the offer to view certificates etc... I would really like to accept your kind offer, by the way where do you live?
Today I read the Legal Notice in SMH 26/3/1894 which said Estate of JOHN WESTBURY, late of Leech's Gully, near Tenterfield, in the colony of New South Wales, Farmer, deceased, intestate. the Estate of John Westbury, deceased, may be granted to HANNAH WESTBURY, the Widow of the said deceased. Intestate means that the deceased died without leaving a Will so that it was Hannah Westbury's Will that caused the controversy and she died at Long Jetty in 1952.
Cheers Grahame
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Hi Grahame
I live Taree ,NSW....... i work as a furniture removalist...... I will photo copy the certificates if you could give an address ....i have 2 more copies im waiting on ....i can see where the other gentleman is going ....where John is your great granfather and the 2 cousins missed out because James and John were born out of wedlock ....the Will my grand father was a beneficiary of was William he died 1960 your grand father Johns brother .....after you told me how hard your Gran-dad and Gran-Mother did it financially .....i would be devastated if they missed out on a inheritance because they were born out of wedlock to John and Hannah ..let alone missing out in the 1st place......my mum said her Dad bought his 1st house and a car with money and the will was set up in such a way that when Williams wife passed on her estate went to the cousins again...this Will was a big deal.....which ever way i look at it your granfather deserved better mate....this has been something that my mum has been trying to solve ......i have moved you step closer we are 2nd cousins once removed ...take care mate
regards Steve
PS my grand father roles in his grave when ever sees my writing ...he was a English History Master to balance things out i became a removalist ..lol
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:)
I am pleased you appreciate that I am an observer and offering suggestions and comments. I am not a family member and I don't need to 'know' the intimiate information that you may find on file in the various deceased files/probate packets held at NSW archives. They are public records, so anyone can (and do) access them without needing to formally prove they are descendants of the person about whom the file exists.
We cannot be responsible for what the laws were, or are, or will become. We cannot be responsible for the actions of our ancestors, who likely were obeying those laws applicable at the time, or society's understanding of them.
Good luck, and good hunting. :D
JM
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JM your input has and is appreciated ....helped take the blinkers off.
cheers Steve
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Hi Steve,
I was also unaware that Hannah Westbury had remarried as I was under the impression that she continued to use the name Hannah Westbury widow, when she died at Long Jetty NSW 1952?
Hi Grahame,
I am a little perplexed by this part of your information.
Can you clarify?
Sue
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Hi Grahame
i always thought she was Hannah Westbury until her death .
regards Steve
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Ah well,
Perhaps Grahame will tell us his thinking ;D
Easy to get led offtrack with complicated families.
Sue
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im not quite sure where another partner for Hannah came from.
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Hi Steve,
Thanks for the kind words of support, my Dad, Harold Westbury really did it hard when his Dad, John Westbury died young at aged 60 in 1936, The Great Depression was on and they were turfed out of their family home in Lidcombe in Western Sydney, my dad was the youngest, he had an older brother, Percy, who died at aged 16 years in 1920 of Spanish Flu. There were two older sisters, Daphne and Ethel Westbury, both were married and Daphne and her husband, who also had a son, took my dad and his mother into their two bedroom home in Enfield in 1936. My dad married in 1942 and his mother died at place sisters home in 1953. Can I get your email address, so we do not need to put it on the open Roots Chat Forum?
I live in Tumbi Umbi, I am married with two sons and am retired - and as a coincidence, my birthday and Hannah's are the same just 90 years apart.
Cheers Grahame
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Hi Grahame
My email is
Regards Steve
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I wonder if anyone has the official transcription or NSW BDM cert for the birth of any of the following registrations in the surname WESTBURY:
William, in 1880 #25343
Eliza Cassandra in 1884 #32439
Elizabeth in 1886 #34569
Sarah A in 1889 #34859
Robert A in 1891 #34516
I am particularly wondering if the document/s give clues about the children born prior to Hannah's marriage ... You see, the registration process was informant driven, so likely either Hannah or John went along to register the births (ministers registered marriages, funeral directors registered the deaths, but the births ... agh ... family members usually did this task)...
So perhaps by the time Robert's birth was registered, and the question came to naming the older living siblings .... well perhaps the names include the ones born before the marriage .... while it will not be conclusive 'proof' either way, if the informant (named on the b.c.) was John born in Gloucestershire, and HE named those older lads ....
Just a speculative thought ... :)
JM
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Hi Steve,
The moderators will remove your email address as it is not permitted.
It is to protect you from unwanted spam type intrusions.
Remove it yourself by using the MODIFY button at the top of your post when logged in.
Grahame,
Can you address the question I have asked re second marriage for Hannah?
Sue
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Yes, and Yes
:) :) both on Sue's question re Hannah and removing email
RChat has a Private Message facility.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=327529.0
JM
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Hi Sue, Don't know what to think or how to move forward. These revelations by Steve have really thrown me and I am unsure what to now search for.
The Legal Notice in the Newspaper indicated that John Westbury died intestate, so John left no Will and that his estate was left to his widow, Hannah Westbury. Now John owned 130 acre property which he purchased from the crown in 1869. That must have had some value and John & James must have been some help?? I haven't found any evidence that Hannah Westbury married again and apparently the children were stated as Richard 15 ,William 13 ,Thomas 10,Eliza 9,Elizabeth 7,Sarah 4 and Robert 3 at the time of John's death in 1894, James and John were not mentioned, but he died without a Will? Their sons and daughters were apparently those making the claims.
Cheers Grahame
Cheers Grahame
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Steve, Sorry mate, if I got you into trouble, I was aware I should place email/phones in public space but I thought maybe when they send me Roots Chat email?
Cheers Grahame
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Found Richard's 1879 birth rego :) under the surname WESTBARG #24124 registered Tenterfield.
Steve, Grahame, I am sure neither of you are in trouble. Sue and I are likely simply being protective of each of your personal privacy :D.
JM
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Hi jm,
Thanks I shouldn't have asked Steve, but I just wanted to see where we were both located.
Thanks for all the info, but still trying to navigate the Roots Chat forum.
Cheers Grahame
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No-one is in any kind of trouble ;D
Just trying to assist and guide.
Steve will take off his email when he gets time, no doubt.
About the second marriage for Hannah which you mentioned, I think we see it was a doubtful suggestion. Perhaps a "red herring" ;)
I do not see another marriage for this particular Hannah WESTBURY.
Sue
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Thanks Sue and J M.....new to this
Regards Steve
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Hi Grahame
Have just sent off for Hannah Westbury death cert ......Richard Westbury 1879 birth cert.....Robert born 1891 birth cert .....also John Westburys deceased estate paperwork......i have John and Hannah`s marriage cert .....his son Johns death cert 1936......James death cert 1957 age 85....the death cert of Hannahs mum Eliza 1861 .....the marriage cert of John to his 1st wife Ann Kilmister 1856 UK...his 1st wife Ann death cert 1873....Johns death cert 1894....death cert of John and Ann 1st child Casandra 1858 ....once all come through i will post to you the copys of all
regards Steve
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Also have a marriage cert of Hannahs dad James Hoult to Eliza Rayson [Bennett maiden name ] ordered
Cheers Steve
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Hi jm,
Thanks for your guidance and support it's really appreciated.
Cheers Grahame
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Hi Steve,
Thanks for all your work and info, I think I really owe you at lot.
Really feel for young John Westbury, as at 18 years old, I guess he was aware he wasn't wanted, that's why he must have left the family farm at Leech's Gully, married a local Tenterfield girl, Annie Elizabeth Collins, in 1897 and came to Sydney, without any assets, to make a new life. You said James Westbury also was around when John senior died, he would have been around 21 years old, did he marry or what happened to him? I think you told me he died in Mascot in Sydney. I wonder whether he came down with John?
Cheers Grahame
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There was a significant economic recession in NSW in the 1890s, and many families were fractured because they could no longer support all their offspring ... You will find that 'urbanisation' ie the movement of the population off the land and to Sydney commences in that decade. In NSW (likely in many of the 6 colonies) ...there were shearers strikes, the growth of the eight hour day movement (8 work, 8 play, 8 sleep) political movements for and against protectionism in trade, federation, etc, the female vote, the White Australia policy, etc... many reasons for the general movement of young people, family groups to Sydney, no social welfare programs to give middle and/or working class any handouts. Similar outcomes to the recession of the 1960s and the political movements that came out of that too... :)
JM
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At the NSW BDM online index for deaths, the given names of the father and mother of the deceased are usually listed. I am confident that on both John's and James' d.c.s you will find that their father was recorded as John WESTBURY. One is several decades before Hannah died, and one is several years after her death.
John's 1936 d.c. is #5319, registered Burwood District... parents as John and Hannah
James' 1957 d.c. is #11482, registered Newtown District parents as John and Hannah
And here is Richard's
1976, #22846, (no district displayed as the system was being computerised and all documentation sent directly to Sydney without going through district offices) parents as John and Hannah.
There are several sections of a NSW BDM death registration, and the main reason that the funeral director lodges these forms is simply that the d.c. includes the equivalent of the burial order, so you learn about the deceased and his/her marriages and descendants and his/her parents in one section that the funeral director gets the informant to sign off, and in another you learn the cause/s of death certified by a medico, and in then in the last section is the funeral director's section with the cemetery/crematorium info. The other significant matter to mention is that there has never been a formal cross checking system in the NSW BDM administrative regulations, so these are 'official records' and may contain errors of fact. :) :) :) (my living elderly rellies include retired senior officers from NSW BDM, and while they are not RChatters, they do read my posts online without signing in)... ::)
JM