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General => Ancestral Family Tree DNA Testing => Topic started by: Yonnie3 on Saturday 03 November 18 16:06 GMT (UK)
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My grandfathers (both sides) took a powder a century ago. We know their names. Is the Ydna test all that useful when we know their names? Being that the Ydna test is so much more expensive and the surname list does not seem to be public data, how do we know if money spent on this test is not equal to pulling the flush handle? At 4 times the expense, who would be buying it?
I have taken the autosomal dna test, my sister and mother's sister too. We have thousands of matches. How do we clear the clutter and find our dad's families?
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I had to Google 'took a powder' to understand what you meant. For others as unaware of American slang like myself, it means they disappeared.
It depends on what you are looking for when you test.
yDNA testing will give you information about your father's father's father's etc DNA.
https://isogg.org/wiki/Y_chromosome_DNA_tests
This will obviously only apply to your paternal grandfather, providing that you are a male, or can find a male from the same line to test (brother, father, paternal uncle). It will give you no information about your maternal grandfather at all.
The autosomal test which you, your sister and maternal aunt have had done, will give you information about both your grandfathers.
If you are hoping to find out if you have any half aunts or uncles from 2nd relationships your grandfathers may have had, it will be a question of waiting to see who has tested and looking for close matches that you have never heard of before.
If you are hoping to find out about your grandfathers' ancestors, there again, it will be a question of sorting through your matches, perhaps following Lost Cousins DNA masterclass techniques.
https://www.lostcousins.com/newsletters2/aug17news.htm#Masterclass
If you can persuade a paternal uncle to test as well, you will have representatives from both paternal and maternal lines, should help you decide which side of your tree your many thousands of matches are from.
Use shared matches as much as possible.
FWIW I have 2 brothers, neither of whom have shown an interest in DNA testing. If I was feeling generous, I would pay for them to have autosomal tests, would not consider paying for them to have yDNA tests.
Regards Margaret
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Here's my peculiar situation and I'm wondering if the Y-dna test would be of any use. My father's surname was Little. I'm finding dna relations to a number of families who have the same surname prominent in their families. The problem I'm having is that I can find no relation between the families. Family-A Little and family-B Little and family-C Little don't seem to be related to each other but are to me?! So maybe it's not the Little name.?
Anyway, the other main question is: Y-DNA is going to show pretty much all males with Little for a surname as related right? So what purpose is there in taking that expensive test?
The third question is: If the testee is giving a cheek-swab or spit sample in a mailer, why are the testing companies charging so much for including the data they already have and selling it as y-dna or MtDNA vs autosomal DNA? The Ancestry dna data includes chromosome 23 but it doesn't include the info about it that I can see other than there is something there. Maybe I don't understand fully what is going on with that.
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1. Family-A Little and family-B Little and family-C Little don't seem to be related to each other but are to me?! So maybe it's not the Little name.?
2. Anyway, the other main question is: Y-DNA is going to show pretty much all males with Little for a surname as related right? So what purpose is there in taking that expensive test?
Re 1. the bit in bald is your possible answer. It is extremely likely that all people with the Little name are related. It is a name that would have occurred independently in different locations and used by unrelated people.
Re 2. No. The purpose of taking the Y DNA test is to distinguish between all the different contenders who bear the same surname to see who is or is not related. For example my surname is in the top 200 UK surnames but of the 3000 plus people with my surname who have taken a Y DNA test only two come anywhere close but even then not close enough. (Little was ranked 304 in 1998)
Didn't follow your last point, sorry
Oh and re Ydna tests in my personal opinion you need to test at least at Y67 level for it to be meaningful and at Y111 if you can afford it. Yes I know more expense!!!!
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Is it possible that the Little's are related but further back than your paper trail goes .... or maybe you just haven't found the common ancestor? And to add to the confusion a YDNA test might match you with men whose surname is not Little.
Men with the surname Little could have moved from one area to another and seemingly not be related, but if you go back far enough you might find a single point of origin ... or maybe not. :)
It also depends on how many men have taken a YDNA test as to how many matches you may or may not get with men with the same surname, or any surname for that matter. It further depends on how extensive their tree is is they have one, or if they have any interest in finding a connection with you.
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I'm getting 3rd to 4th cousin hits and when I go to the family trees and start following each generation back to the appropriate time frames I can find no CA! My grandfather was born in Calif. 1896. He does not seem to exist. I link to a family in Idaho, the persons I possibly could be the 3-4 generation connection wasn't in California in 1896. The family in Michigan wasn't in California and no connection to the one for Idaho with a 3-4 gen link and ditto for Tennessee and North Carolina and Ark.
I can't rule out unknown links other than checking the dna matchlist for surnames of other people in the trees. Not finding any names that seem to be common.
I can't see how the y-dna test would help when most other men wouldn't be using it. If it's not used what are the chances of getting a hit other than to someone who is so far off the list they might have well have been born with Julius Ceasar.
What's needed is better tools. The given search engines like to throw a lot of clutter into searches instead of looking for what is placed into the search parameters. Wasting hundreds of hours
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Going back to "taking a powder", dictionary. Com says,
"Phrase take a powder "scram, vanish," is from 1920; it was a common phrase as a doctor's instruction, so perhaps from the notion of taking a laxative medicine or a sleeping powder, with the result that one has to leave in a hurry (or, on another guess, from a magician's magical powder, which made things disappear)."
Even Michael Caine doesn't know that!
Martin
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what's the definition of "bit-in-bald"?
Here's the puzzle, a lot of these matches say 3rd-4th, 3rd-5th and I look up their tree and go back as far as they list from 1-on which could be 7-8 gens and there is no common ancestor, at least not a Little one. So, I'm doing the y-dna and see if I even have the right surname.
I have another puzzle, a 3rd cousin match to another cousin's in-law uncle. Can't find the CA there either. It's a known 1st cousin who has a dna match to me, but why should I have a match to his mothers brother-in-law?
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Jvankort
I find your messages extremely hard to follow.
It would be helpful if you didn't use abbreviations or slang as, they may mean something different, or may mean nothing at all, to those thousands of miles away.
On Tuesday you wrote
'I can't see how the y-dna test would help when most other men wouldn't be using it. If it's not used what are the chances of getting a hit other than to someone who is so far off the list they might have well have been born with Julius Ceasar.'
On Wednesday you wrote
'So, I'm doing the y-dna and see if I even have the right surname.'
Take heed of the advice given to you by Ruskie and davidft if you are determined to take the test.
DNA testing is not magical. It really does depend upon who has tested and who has not, and how much DNA they have inherited from a particular ancestor..
There were no proven matches to my maiden name when I started out. There were plenty for my great grandmother's surname. Perhaps there was a misattributed great grandfather? My paternal first cousin tested and she had matches straightaway to 19 century ancestors, now I have a few as well.
As for 'bit in bald', it is clearly a typo for 'bit in bold'.
Regards Margaret
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Don't get too caught up with your Littles, and don't think that because you have no obvious matches, that you have the "wrong" surname.
Just for interest, my OH's surname is within the top 15 in the UK. His Y-DNA test has the following matches:
11 @ 12 markers
3 @ 25 markers
0 @ 37 markers
2 @ 67 markers
None of these men share his surname.
I have joined the surname project, they have looked at his results, and claim he is a "singleton".
I have not investigated further testing to enhance these results, however I have just purchased an autosomal test to see what matches that throws up. :)
For contrast, my father is one of only 5 (known) men worldwide who have the same surname. His matches:
0 @ 67
4 @ 37
334 @ 25
1242 @ 12
Of course, none have the same (or even a possible variation of) his surname. :)
I believe that matches at 12 markers are usually not very useful or traceable.
I have purchased an autosomal test for him too as he has an interest in "cousin" matches. :)
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guess I just wasted $200
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In your original post you said you were hoping to find your father's and grandfather's family.
As I said at the time, autosomal testing would be the best to find such recent ancestors, which you have already had done.
I hope that y testing proves helpful to you for researching information about your patrilineal line, I hope you have ordered a suitable test as suggested.
Read up about it before your results get back, also read up a little more about autosomal DNA to help you understand how it works.
Good luck.
Regards Margaret
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I took the plunge (sorry more colloquialisms) and purchased FTDNA's Y111 test some time ago. I am R-M269 like most males in the bottom half of England. In terms of matches
Marker Level Qty
12. 816
25 406
37 54
67. 5
111 zero
What use has it been to me in adding to my family tree? None whatsoever.
Do I regret it? Not at all. It has motivated me to consider the emerging combination of Genome analysis and Anthropology to rewrite the history of modern humans that I find fascinating. I know I need to get out more!!
My mtDNA results show that my earliest maternal ancestors originated in the Altai Mountains of Siberia 15,000 years ago and the 12 matches to my (very) Welsh mother's haplogroup are all in Sweden!! Given that I know that my mother's forebears were living along the River Tywi in Carmarthenshire back at least to the late 1700s, this is interesting but does not inform my tree searches.
My own experience indicates that for either Y-DNA (male line) or mtDNA (female line) I would have to be luckier than a lottery winner to find anything that will help me with my tree which goes back the mid-1700s. Thus it seems reasonable to conclude that such tests are of almost no value in assisting the search for near-family connections within the past four hundred years.
As a previous poster said, for 'recent" relatives, any nuggets that might be found will be lurking in the "shared matches" function for autosomal tests. Whilst this requires more hope than expectation, there are at least several million people that have taken these tests. I used Ancestry and have 250+ matches that share greater than 15 cM of dNA with me. Just know I found another 3rd cousin twice removed and would still be looking except that Ancestry is clearly overloaded and has locked me out... again.
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Maybe you could see if there is a surname project associated with the Little surname? It might be worth joining to see if you can get some help from them.
Although I was frustrated by the lack of useful matches on the two Y-DNA tests I had people take, I don't think it was a waste of money. There is a lot to learn and it is a good hobby, and keeps the mind active, (though far too complex for me to get my head around.) :)
I have purchased both of them both autosomal (Familyfinder) tests, (with FTDNA) and will be interested to see what comes of those. :)
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@diplodicus
I was very interested to see your Y-DNA results breakdown.
I am I-M253+, Z63+, BY151+ and my matching data is;
111 markers = 0 matches,
67 markers = 2 matches (genetic distance 7),
37 markers = 0 matches,
25 markers = 1 match (genetic distance 2),
12 markers = 1180 matches (x25 genetic distance 0)
No useful names and I know of at least three NPE in my paternal line ;)
pughcd
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Hello cdpugh :)
I have yet to really get to grips with FTDNA's SNP/Haplogroup mapping but I think mine is:
M269 + L23 + L51 + P310.
Am I correct that in FTDNA you scan down the SNP display locating the major branches in mauve from which lots of blue SNPs are displayed? My final SNP is R-Y81357?
111 markers = 0 matches
67 markers = 5 matches (genetic distance 7... 3 of which have McWilliams as earliest known ancestor.)
37 markers = 49 matches (not including the 67 marker matches).
25 markers = 354 matches (not including the 37+67s).
12 markers = 411 matches (not including all the above).
I have only match at genetic distance =1 and all the rest are zero. This is with the earliest known ancestor of the chap who runs my surname's one name study here in England.
What's an "NPE"?
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http://dgmweb.net/DNA/General/NPE_Resolutions.html
In genealogy, the acronym "NPE" stands for "non-paternity event" (a.k.a., non-paternal event, false paternal event, mis-attributed paternity, etc.) meaning an individual is not the child of the father shown in the family's "paper" genealogy.
The term, "non-paternity" may seem to not make sense as surely the child did have a father, but the event is viewed from the perspective of the father, who turns out not to be the parent of the alleged child, making him a "non-pater."
Regards Margaret
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NPE can also stand for "Not Parent Expected"
https://www.yahoo.com/gma/dna-test-upends-identity-family-secret-facebook-group-124208111--abc-news-topstories.html
https://www.npefellowship.org/
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NPE can also stand for "Not Parent Expected"
https://www.yahoo.com/gma/dna-test-upends-identity-family-secret-facebook-group-124208111--abc-news-topstories.html
https://www.npefellowship.org/
The term "Not parent expected" is a bit deceptive in regards to family history. A female will always know that she is the mother of her child, but the male can't always be sure he is the father.
I think the use of "paternal" is preferable.
"Not parent expected" may be used in America rather than elsewhere.
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Hi @diplodicus
Yes you are correct the FT-DNA Y-DNA Haplotree will show your presumed or confirmed SNP results in specific colours.
SNPs tested positive will show in green.
SNPs tested negative will show in red.
SNPs presumed positive will show in brown.
SNPs presumed negative will show in black.
SNPs downstream show in blue.
I have a number of SNPs downstream (blue) of my current terminal SNP, BY151. I could take these as individual tests or upgrade from 111 markers to the Big-Y500.
pughcd
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Hi @Ruskie,
Yes the acronym NPE explanation seems to depend where you live.
Thanks,
pughcd
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"Non-Paternity Event" is the original and most accepted term for NPE. It really means that the surname associated with the father is not consistent with YDNA results. There are many ways the transmission of surname from father to son may not track the YDNA transmission: 1) the most common is probably via adoption (children of neighbors/relatives killed by war, famine, disease, etc.) or young widow remarries and her children take on the surname of her second husband; 2) swearing an allegiance to a clan and taking on the clan surname; 3) due to the wealth of the mother, the father has to take on the surname of the mother in order to get blessing for marriage and received inheritance or gain favor from the wealthy; 4) Infidelity of the wife during marriage to husband; 5) rape of wife by slavery, conquest during wars, sexual crimes, etc.; 6) Changing of surnames - avoiding the law, did not like the surname and just changed it, etc.; 7) Some lords had bedding rights of new brides under their protection.
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I am one of the admins for the R-L226 haplogroup project, the third largest haplogroup (dominated by Irish heritage) that has one YSTR signature (which is over 99 % predictable). For an extreme case, we now have 81 67 marker or higher testers that belong to one particular O'Brien surname cluster (descendants of King Brian Boru, the first king to unite/conquer the entire island of Ireland). Being royal and conquering your neighbors has its advantages as this line has a prolific number of male descendants that can be tested.
The O'Brien surname cluster has 81 testers at 67 or more markers, 19 YSNP branches within this surname cluster and another 25 YSTR branches. This is 44 branches just for one man who first used the surname of O'Brien around 1,000 AD. R-L226 also has 20 other surname clusters where there are at least five testers with the same surname (or variants) and have less than a 50 % NPE rate at any branching event (YSNP or YSTR). This surname cluster starts with the box labeled "TMRCA = 1000 AD" and takes eight pages to show the connections:
http://www.rcasey.net/DNA/R_L226/Haplotrees/L226_Home.pdf#Page=76 (http://www.rcasey.net/DNA/R_L226/Haplotrees/L226_Home.pdf#Page=76)
My Casey surname now has 24 67 marker testers, two YSNP branches and five YSTR branches.
http://www.rcasey.net/DNA/R_L226/Haplotrees/L226_Home.pdf#Page=44 (http://www.rcasey.net/DNA/R_L226/Haplotrees/L226_Home.pdf#Page=44)
So R-L226 is finally making some serious progress - but this is not consistent for everyone. But our project has grown over 100 % in size during the last 18 months and now has 160 Big Y tests due to the significant progress that our prolific project is making. The largest Irish/Scottish haplogroup that has one YSTR signature is much older and has five times as many testers. The second largest Irish haplogroup, CTS4466 is around 50 % larger than L226. Around one third of our 760 testers are assigned to branches under surname clusters - that is a lot of genealogically significant information to work with. On the other hand, some haplogroups only have 20 or 30 testers and five or so branches which is really too small of a sample size to determine all the connections. But even these smaller haplogroups have 20 or 30 % of the tester belonging to well defined YSTR branches within YSNP branches.
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I do not agree with this statement by diplodicus
“My own experience indicates that for either Y-DNA (male line) or mtDNA (female line) I would have to be luckier than a lottery winner to find anything that will help me with my tree which goes back the mid-1700s. Thus it seems reasonable to conclude that such tests are of almost no value in assisting the search for near-family connections within the past four hundred years.”
Work on families with the same surname from the north of England has generally come to a blockage in the male line in early 1700s due to them being Roman Catholics and so no paper trail to get further back.
So a member from each family line has taken YDNA tests which shows that 4 families who come from the North York Moors (with acceptable slight mutations) share a common male ancestor who lived in the Egton area around 1700 or earlier.
The results also show that the people of the same (or similar) surname who come from the North West of England or Scotland are not related.
There was also a more recent test (not listed) of another line from the North York Moors who did not show a link - maybe a “non-paternal event”.
The results can be viewed on this site -
http://www.hoggarth.co.uk/DNA-results.htm
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I am happy to stand corrected by Spelk whose website (quoted) shows what can be done with Y-DNA testing.
I should have phrased my own statement more cautiously. I was thinking about the chances of a match appearing from an unknown distant relative here in England who is:
- interested in genealogy;
- interested in DNA testing as a genealogical research tool;
- can afford and has submitted a DNA sample for Y-DNA testing.
One thing clearly highlighted by Spelk's posting is the value of focussing on a single tree branch amongst so many.
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Yes my point was that for proving or disproving a potential link then YDNA (and I suppose mtDNA) does have its uses.
And I agree that to find by accident a link to some random person is unlikely and I might ask why bother? I already have about 30 known cousins of who I have only ever met less than 10 and really would not care to add hundreds of second cousins.
Having said that a few months back I received the first ever note from FTDNA that they have found a pretty good YDNA match to me from some chap in Scandinavia. None of my lot went to sea that I know of but some of my DNA cousins (in what I call the Egton Branch) did take up seafaring and would have been doing the baltic trade - so I might get in touch just for fun. Maybe he has an ancestor born from some unknown English seaman.
As for finding family with autosomal DNA I have long been rather scathing of the value of that. However a couple of months back I paid FTDNA to check mine in the hope that it might give a hint as to the father of my illegitimate Grandmother. Results came back and no match.
I might have a go with the Ancestry DNA autosomal as they have a larger database and given the money I have spent on Family History over 20 years - a bit more will not hurt - and at the moment our cat has a better pedigree than me.
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Another reason for doing yDNA testing.
https://dna-explained.com/2019/01/22/caution-invisible-fathers-and-autosomal-matching-whos-hiding-in-your-dna/
Regards Margaret