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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: tigtag on Monday 05 November 18 23:43 GMT (UK)
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So here’s a puzzle for you to solve.
My G grandmother married in 1905 and had 4 children. One died but all 3 were living with her in 1911 - her husband however was not.
Sometime before 1914 those three children went to live with various members of their fathers family.
In 1914 my grandmother was born. My G Grandmother was living at the same address her my grandmothers father and his name was ‘Henry Thomas’.
One year later my G grandmother bigamously married a third man (her first husband died in 1918) purporting to be a widow and manipulating her name somewhat on their marriage certificate.
I loose sight of my G grandmother after this marriage and there are no family stories as my grandmother was brought up in an orphanage with the only ‘recollections’ of her parents being disproved by research.
I never really looked for ‘Henry Thomas’ thinking that with only a name and a fairly common one at that it would be like looking for a needle in a haystack.
Fast forward 10+ years and I’m in the local history centre of the town in question so decided to research the address a little. There was nothing on the electoral registers but from 1911 - 1915 there was a Thomas Henry Parish at the same address.
It HAS to be the same person.
On the 1911 census he is with his wife and he is 76 which means he was 79 when my grandmother was born 😱😱
I presumed his wife must have died sometime before my grandmother was born and that his death 3 months before my G grandmothers bigamous marriage was the reason she did marry again.
So I ordered his death certificate in the hope I may get some answers from the informant.
But nooooooooo, the informant was his wife (or rather his now widow) living at the same address.
If you’ve been brave enough to make it to the end of my VERY long post I would appreciate any input 🙈😱
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Hello
A bit more information would help ie name of g grandmother, where they were in 1911 and so on. The more family research I do, the more I realise that quite often, things are not straightforward.
Jackie
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Hello
A bit more information would help ie name of g grandmother, where they were in 1911 and so on. The more family research I do, the more I realise that quite often, things are not straightforward.
Jackie
I have to agree with Jackie. Without the name of the lady and her location in 1911 (as well as the address of T H Parish), we have virtually no chance of success.
You can't be sure Thomas Henry Parish (found 1911-1915) is the same person as Henry Thomas (the 1914 father) even though the address is the same. They could be related in some way.
Philip
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Thank you
G Grandmother:
Sarah Rosa Naomi Nicholson (nee Osburn)
1911 Census - 12 Brunswick Grove, Hessle with her three children (Lucy, George & Elsie) but no husband (Charles)
Some time between 1911 & 1914 the three children went to live with Charles’ family
1914 Birth of Rhoda Thomas Nicholson - 57 Somerscales Street, Hull
1915 (Dec) Marriage to Burton Lamb (as Naomi Nicholson, widow even though Charles didn’t die until 1918) - 13a Humber Street Hull
Thomas Henry Parish:
1911 Census - 57 Somerscales Street, Hull (with wife Martha)
1911 - 1915 Kelly’s Directorys, 57 Somerscales Street, Hull
Death Aug 1915 - 57 Somerscales Street. Informant is his widow Martha, present at death.
Grandmothers birth certificate 1914:
Mother - Sarah Rosa Naomi Nicholson (nee Osburn) 57 Somerscales Street
Father - Henry Thomas 57 Somerscales Street
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What information do you have on Charles Nicholson.
Where / when was he born & what was his occupation.
Where was he in 1911
What was his cause of death and where was he living at the time
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What information do you have on Charles Nicholson.
Where / when was he born & what was his occupation.
Where was he in 1911
What was his cause of death and where was he living at the time
Charles Nicholson was born on 16th May 1879 in Hull and died on 2nd September 1918 in France & Flanders.
Before subscription he was a rullyman (although I’m fairly sure he ending up owning horses and rullies).
I cannot find him on the 1911 census and aside from the off record there is not much left of his WWI records.
He left what he did have to his three surviving children with Sarah of who his sister Edith Norton became guardian although I do believe that this was before his death.
I have a letter from Charles to his [I think] brother in law which is a little cloak and dagger but pretty much disowns SRN as his wife and mother to their children. He also took out a two day advert in their local paper back in 1906 (pre children) absolving himself of any of her debts so their relationship was clearly turmulous to say the least.
I personally think he’s a red herring in finding her or the real father of my grandmother.
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I noticed that the Parishes had a boarder in 1911 https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X7TW-HLM I wondered whether Henry Thomas/Sarah Nicolson were simply boarders in 1914??
Does the 1914 birth cert list Henry Thomas's occupation??
Kay
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Thank you for the information on Charles, it helps put things in perspective :)
What information does your grandmothers birth certificate give on Henry Thomas's occupation. Who was the informant.
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tigtag,
Did Thomas Henry Parish leave a will? Just wondering, in case an illegitimate child was provided for within his will (if he had one).
Is it possible that Sarah might have sued your grandmother's biological father (or his estate) for support? I'm wondering how you would find out; either through newspapers or court or bastardy orders held somewhere (if they exist)?
Regards,
Josephine
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Also, is it possible to get a copy of your grandmother's records from the orphanage (if they still exist)? Sarah might have told them a different story about her daughter's father.
Keep in mind that it's quite possible that Sarah might have used part of her landlord's name on her daughter's birth certificate not because he was the father but because it was an easy fib to think up.
How did Sarah support herself and her children? Is it possible she might have asked for financial assistance from the local government or the church? Do such records still exist?
Regards,
Josephine
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THP was buried at Sculcoates 20 August 1915 age 80 -abode 57 Somerscales St.
The 1914 birth appears on the GRO index under both Thomas & Nicholson. ;)
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There are additional details in this thread from 2011:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=555526.0
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On my grandmothers birth certificate Henry Thomas an Sarah Rosa Naomi Nicholson are both the informants. His occupation is Barman and they are both listed at 57 Somerscales Street. It has crossed my mind that they were maybe just boarders at the Parishes and THP’s Christian names are just coincidence. I think the fact that SRN has form for manipulating names (she marries in 1915 as Naomi Nicholson) just made me assume the same had happened here.
There is no will for THP as far as I can see.
Bastards orders maybe an outside chance but I have trawled FindMyPast for newspaper articles and can find nothing.
I don’t know which orphanage my grandmother went to and accessing records is a struggle because if the 100 year rule and we think she may have been admitted c1919/1920. There are only two local orphanages which have full records anyway, I have ruled out one but the other cannot be completely ruled out until 2020.
If the fathers name has been made up on the birth certificate Sarah hasn’t done this alone as the father was also the informant. I have no idea how she supported her children, if at all. Her 3 to Charles Nicholson were with her in 1911 but I believe went to his family soon after (their descents though 1909/1910) and there is no occupation for her on the census or no sign of Charles.
Thank you all again, I though the THP find was a breakthrough from my 2011 thread but it seems to have just opened a bigger can of worms.
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Have you asked the orphanages or are you just going on assumptions? If the latter, it might not hurt to contact them.
The rules are different everywhere (I'm in Canada). I was able to get a copy of my great-grandmother's Salvation Army Maternity Home records (in the United States) because my grandmother was never adopted (she was raised by relatives). I had to provide notarized copies of birth and marriage records proving my relationship to them.
If you haven't already made inquiries with the local libraries and archives, and the local history societies, it might be a good idea to give them a try. In my experience, just because records aren't available online doesn't mean they don't exist in hard copy form somewhere.
Do you have a baptismal record for your grandmother? If one exists, it might have a father's name listed. If you haven't done so already, and if those records aren't online, you could contact the local churches and ask for a look-up.
Have you considered DNA testing?
Good luck with your search.
Regards,
Josephine
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Fast forward 10+ years and I’m in the local history centre of the town in question so decided to research the address a little. There was nothing on the electoral registers but from 1911 - 1915 there was a Thomas Henry Parish at the same address.
It HAS to be the same person.
On the 1911 census he is with his wife and he is 76 which means he was 79 when my grandmother was born 😱😱
Thomas Henry Parish born 1835 (so the 79 year old when your grandmother was born) had a son also Thomas Henry born 1865 (he died 1915 aged 50)
Could he be the father? He's a seaman in 1872 he gets his first mate certificate from Hull - so he could easily live with his father when he is at home so the address would be the same
If Sarah was born 1881 he seems a more plausible option
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I also thought of that but I think this is the younger Thomas Henry in 1911 with a large family https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X7TS-FXW
On the plus side he was living in Hessle as was Sarah Nicholson
Kay
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Quote:
I never really looked for ‘Henry Thomas’ thinking that with only a name and a fairly common one at that it would be like looking for a needle in a haystack.
You may have already seen and discounted this Henry Thomas but just in case you haven't:
Link to 1911 census from the familysearch website:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X7T7-VXB
and 1901 recorded as Harry:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XS9T-D1Q