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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => West Lothian (Linlithgowshire) => Topic started by: Dalesman on Monday 26 November 18 15:25 GMT (UK)
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I’m trying to find the names and dates of birth of the children of Mungo Chapman, b. Dalmeney,30/4/1781 and Agnes McKinley b.Kirkliston,1777.
The only childrens names I have are George Chapman b. 1/7/1804 and a William Chapman died Abercorn, 1883.
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In the 1841 census there is a Mary age 20 living with them as well as their son William possibly a daughter Also there is a James Chapman age 35 with a son Mungo so another son possibly
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There's a death of a James Chapman, age 62, mother's name MacKinlay, in Uphall in 1864.
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Wendy, this might relate to the Mungo, son a James Chapman, you mentioned www.findagrave.com/memorial/170023370/mungo-chapman
Monica
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There is also this www.burnawn.co.uk/lm/26.html which implies I think that James was his older brother?
I think this is because there are two sets of James & Mungo in 1841 in West Lothian:
James Chapman 35
Barbara Chapman 35
Agnes Chapman 10
Thomas Chapman 9
Mungo Chapman 7
Christian Chapman 5
John Chapman 3
John Cambell 25
Address: Woodend, Abercorn
And the other entry in 1841:
James Chapman 25 grain dealer
Mungo Chapman 20 grain dealer
James Bishop 20
Robert Davidson 15
Address: Ballanerieff Mill Outhouse Or Stable, Bathgate
Given the similarity in the names, there may well be a family connection between these two entries such as referenced here www.burnawn.co.uk/lm/52.html
Again, from what I can see, James 25 and Mungo 20 in 1841 were children of a John Chapman and Elizabeth Anderson. Mungo b. 1781 is potentially showing as brother to John and therefore would be uncle to these two Chapmans in Bathgate.
Monica
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There are a number of family trees on a/try online (you need a subscription to view details). They do not include original images to be able to double check, but the dates given should let you verify some of the details yourself on Scotlands People.
They show the following children for Mungo and Agnes:
Janet b. 28 Aug 1800 in West Lothian and d. 7 Oct 1864 in Ratho
James b. 6 Aug 1802 in Dalmeny and d. 28 Jul 1864 in Broxburn
George b. 1 July 1804 in Dalmeny and d. 26 Apr 1872 in Abercorn
Margaret b. 28 May 1806 in Dalmeny and d. 21 JUN 1886 in Broxburn
John b. 1809 in Abercorn and d. 14 June 1826 in Kirkliston
Mungo b. 1814 in Abercorn and d. 2 Oct 1840 in Kirkliston
William b. 1816 in Abercorn and d. 4 Apr 1883 in Abercorn
Mary b. 1821 in Abercorn and d. 3 Mar 1884 in Kelvin, Glasgow
Monica
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Address: Ballanerieff Mill Outhouse Or Stable, Bathgate
That looks like a mistranscription of Ballancrieff?
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Very likely Forfarian. Mistranscriptions prevail for sure.
Just adding link to this other post for further background to this post www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=688940.0
Monica
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From what we have, first born Janet Chapman married a James Shiels. Some background on her life here:
Janet Chapman 1800-1864
Mother of James Shiels of Ratho. Janet was born in 1800 in Dalmeny, outside South Queensferry. Her father was Mungo Chapman, a carter from Abercorn. Her mother, Agnes McKinlay, lived to the age of 84 and died a year before Janet.
Parish records show that the Chapmans had migrated from Bathgate to Dalmeny via Abercorn, a small hamlet east of Hopetoun House, between 1750 and 1780.
As an adult, Janet appears to have spent some time in Abercorn, about 3 miles from where she was born, since this is given as her place of residence on her marriage record when she wed James Shiels at Uphall in 1822. When Janet died in Myre, a farm steading north of Winchburgh, in 1864, she had only outlived by a year her mother Agnes (maiden name McKinlay) - who had been residing with her....
https://archive.org/stream/AncestorsOfAlexanderShielsOfLeith/AncestorsOfAlexanderShielsOfLeith_djvu.txt
Monica
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https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=16&lat=55.9072&lon=-3.6532&layers=5&b=1
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This will be no help regarding the children of Mungo Chapman but do you have the parents of Mungo as James Chapman and Agnes Kerr who married at Dalmeny on 28/5/1779?
They were my husband's 4 x gt grandparents through their daughter Agnes - 1783 to 1869 who married Thomas Chattam/Chattie/Shatton on 30/11/1802 at Abercorn. Agnes was a sister to Mungo.
I have the children of James and Agnes as -
Mungo born 1781
Agnes born 1783
Margaret born 1785
John born 1787
Dorrie
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Dorrie, was James, father to the four, married to Agnes Kerr or Janet Kerr?
Details from here show the mother to the four children as Janet Kerr:
The names of John’s parents appear as James Chapman and Janet Kerr. Entries in the IGI propose that that James was born c. 1754 and that Janet was born in 1758, in St Cuthbert’s Parish, Edinburgh. As generally tends to be the case, the basis of this information is unclear.
James Chapman married Janet Kerr, as recorded both at St Cuthberts, Edinburgh, and Dalmeny, West Lothian. The Register of Marriages for St Cuthberts records in an entry dated 26th May 1780:
‘Chapman James Labourer in the Parish of Dalmeny, and Janet Kerr Residenter in this Parish, and Lawll Daur of the Deceased John Kerr, Miller in the Parish of Kirkliston, Gave up their Names for Proclamation of Banns Matrimonial.’
The entry in the ‘Proclaimations (sic) & Marriages’ section of the Dalmeny Parish Register (dated the 28th May 1780) reads:
James Chapman in Auldcathy of this Parish and Janet Kerr in St Cuthberts Parish were proclaimed pro. 1mo this day and married
John’s death certificate identifies his father as James Chapman, a farm overseer (deceased). The informant was however unable to identify John’s mother.
On the evidence of the Dalmeny Parish Register entries for James and Janet’s marriage and for the birth of their daughters Agnes and Margaret and son John, James was living at Auldcathy or Auldcathie throughout the period 1780 to 1787.
Note also that on the evidence of the entry in the Register of Marriages for St Cuthbert’s Parish, Janet Kerr’s lawful father, John Kerr, was deceased by 1780 and had been a ‘Miller in the Parish of Kirkliston’.
Brothers and Sisters
John Chapman was the last of four known children. Mungo was born on 30th April 1781 and Agnes was born on 10th September 1783. These two were recorded together in the Dalmeny Parish Register on 14th September 1783:
James Chapman & Janet Kerr Spouses in Auldcathy had a Child born upon the 10th Curt and baptised this day, called Agnes.
These Parents had a Child born upon the 30 April Seventeen hundred & Eighty One years baptised at Abercorn, called Mungo.
www.burnawn.co.uk/lm/52.html
Monica
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My apologies to all as that was my error it should have been Janet not Agnes.
Their daughter was Agnes and she died in 1869 - death registered under the surname of Chattie and gives her parents as James Chapman and Janet Kerr.
I have the records from SP as listed Monica and it all agrees.
Dorrie
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You are very thorough, Dorrie ;) Just double-checking for a note on this thread.
Monica
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May I first thank everyone for their input regarding the children of Mungo and Agnes Chapman, really appreciated.
My 4x Gt,grandparents were Mungo and Agnes Chapman. My 2x Gt,Grandfather was George Chapman b. 1/7/1804 – 1883 Abercorn, a brother to Janet.
I also noted that there was some confusion with the Christian names of either Janet or Agnes Kerr.
Bill
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Just to get things straight, James Chapman & Janet Kerr proclaimed their banns and married on 28 May 1780 in Dalmeny having proclaimed their banns in St Cuthberts on 26 May 1780. The Dalmeny record has been misindexed in ScotlandsPeople as 1779 - the original record is clear; the St Cuthberts record is correct.
Agnes Chapman marr Thomas Shatton on 30 Nov 1802 in Abercorn. The surname genuinely evolved in his lifetime to Chattie with an occasional foray into Chatto, then sometimes onward to Chatham (as in my case) and Chattam.
The other thing of note is that Janet Kerr was actually baptised Janet Carre - she was baptised 25 May 1748 Kirkliston to John Carre & Janet Comb. However his continued use of the (unusual) Carre surname was for a relatively limited time while John Carre & Janet Comb lived in Kirkliston where he was the miller (in an unnamed mill right opposite the Carre estate of Todshaugh), clearly influenced by the Carres of Cavers (who themselves were originally Ker but took on Carre - the explanation is in The Annals Of A Border Club (The Jedforest). 1899, pages 297-305 *). Local records prior to Cavers coming upon the scene are for Ker, Kerr or Keir and never for Carre, Carr, etc, but Richard Carr, who is likely to be Janet Kerr's uncle, seems to have stuck with Carr (mostly!).
It doesn't help my sanity that I have another direct line back to Carr, this time in Bradford West Yorkshire. At least they always stuck to Carr.
* https://ia802708.us.archive.org/7/items/annalsabordercl00tancgoog/annalsabordercl00tancgoog.pdf
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Thank you Fordyce setting everything straight. With looking at the name spellings and the word Bradford reminded me of a comment made by Denis Healey, former Chancellor.
He was born and raised in Bradford and once said he was in his twenties before he realised Bradford had a 'd' in it not spelt Bratford due to the local dialect!