RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: ali607 on Monday 26 November 18 21:35 GMT (UK)
-
Hi everyone,
Many years ago -about ten years really - I frequented this site on a daily basis. I lived here from getting home from work until going to bed! My dad died in 2010 and I suddenly felt that I should be dwelling among the living more than the dead. Recently I have had my first child and something inside of me is calling me to get back to it. You see, Family History was my obsessive hobby back then and I traced my family tree back to the 1700s, except one line...
This line is the only unfinished chapter in my ancestry. Back in 2008 or so when I stopped researching, there were probably limited resources compared to today. I do not have the time to complete this chink in the jigsaw, but would be very very grateful if anyone could help me with this...
My family name is Salter. My dad was Stephen Desmond Salter. His dad Desmond Jervis Salter (although he changed his name to Robert Desney in later life as he was estranged to my dad). I now have all details about his life...in profusion.
Desmond was born 4 Dec 1918 Mill Hill London at Fulham Road Infirmary (369 Fulham Road) in CHelsea. He was illegitemate but his mother was Ethel Salter. She was a munitions worker in 1918 and her normal residence was 5 Marville Road, Fulham. I believe she would have been demobbed in 1919.
He was brought up in a catholic orphanage in Mill Hill. I have lots of information on the orphanges he lived in and his life thereafter - marriages, navy records and RAF etc
But I would dearly love to finish this jigsaw with the last piece. I would love to find a picture of Desmond if anyone has any ideas where one might be lurking. Who was Desmond's father and also who was Ethel and her line back in time? I think she was born in 1895.
I am hoping there are easier methods to find out this information now than ten years ago. I would be interested in anyone who can help for free on here or indeed, anyone who can recommend a 'paid' researcher.
I should also ass that I have an intuitive hunch - and I am a very intuitive person lol - that Desmond was not British (end of the war etc)...I have a hunch towards Eastern European/Russia/Japan...just in case anyone sees any connections to those countries along the way!
Many thanks
Alison xxx
-
Welcome back to Rootschat!
You probably know that Ethel wasn't at 5 Marville Road, Fulham in the 1911.
The family in the house was the Walkers, and they had three boarders at the time.
Many of the houses on the road seem to have been in multiple occupancy, but number 5 just has one family, William West (a house painter) and his wife Mary, who've been married for 8 years with no children.
They have three lodgers, Frank Andrews, Sam Schopfer (who's French) and Frederic William Palmer.
I only mention them because of course it's possible that one of them was still there when your Ethel was living there, and could possibly be a candidate for your great grandfather -
although possibly the 'Jervis' in Desmond's name is a clue to his father's surname
-
Hi Igor,
Thanks for the above info...can you clarify a little please?
The Walker family is the main family, and then there is a West man and wife and then the three separate lodgers? Is that right?
Thanks
Alison
-
The Walkers seem to have lived at 7 Marville Rd, from electoral rolls, so I suggest you disregard them.
-
William West was the registered voter at 5 Marville Rd until 1914, but by 1915 he had been replaced by Allan Pinkerton.
Later on at 5 Marville Rd:
1918: Allan Pinkerton, jun; David Pinkerton
1919: Allan Pinkerton, jun; David Pinkerton (absent)
1920: Allan Pinkerton, sen; Allan Pinkerton, jun; David Pinkerton; Nelly Pinkerton.
-
What is the source for Ethel Salter being born in 1895?
-
For the benefit of a chance of duplication of effort (too many to add links at the moment) but I counted 5 posts on this surname etc.
It may be worth people using the 'search' box at top of page & enter/copy & paste;
Desmond Jervis Salter
I did think the name was familiar!
Annie
ADD...Just noticed this was my 10,000th post! :o ;)
-
All these multiple postings just make a confusing mess
I would suggest a DNA test, could be completely possible that the fathers surname was "Jervis" and he worked at the munitions factory ......
-
Yes DNA may well be answer
Also do you have baptism record ? sometimes there s a clue on there
My grandmother had birth certificate with her middle name same as birth fathers Surname. (..your JERVIS certainly sounds like a surname)
But 3 months thst later after mothher obtained payments from birth father she was baptised with the middle name she used in adoptive family
I'm wondering if the change to Roger D. Could be to do with baptism name or finding out who his birather father was a d either choosing not to have same name or wanting same name
BTW you can ask administration to merge the posts or
You could summarise all your findings and ask for your old posts to be deleted
-
William West was the registered voter at 5 Marville Rd until 1914, but by 1915 he had been replaced by Allan Pinkerton.
Later on at 5 Marville Rd:
1918: Allan Pinkerton, jun; David Pinkerton
1919: Allan Pinkerton, jun; David Pinkerton (army)
1920: Allan Pinkerton, sen; Allan Pinkerton, jun; David Pinkerton; Nelly Pinkerton.
Ok - very interesting. Pinkerton - another name to add to the pot who could be my great grandad! So I presume William Starns (named as Occupier of 5 Marville Road in 1918 on Desmond's birth certificate) is a lodger with the Pinkerton family then?
Thanks
Alison
-
Yes possibly a lodger.
I made a mistake on the earlier post - David was marked a for “absent” rather than “army” in 1919, though his voting qualification code NM (naval or military) suggests it may amount to much the same thing.
The Pinkertons were a Scottish family. Allan snr was a builder/joiner who seems to have brought his young family to London c1880. Allan jnr (b 1877) and David (b 1879) were sons of his and Nelly was his second wife. Allan snr died in Fulham in 1920; the sons stayed on (unmarried) at 5 Marville Rd until the mid-1940s. David died in Fulham in 1946 and Allan jnr in Wood Green in 1950.
-
Birth
Dec 1918 Chelsea 1a 477
Salter, Desmond
mother Salter
No Jervis.
There are a William Marns and an Ethel Marns listed at 50 Clancarty Road, Fulham in 1920.
Not far from Marville Road.
EDIT - Make that STARNS!
-
William/Ethel Starns at 50 Clancarty in 1918, so that doesn't tie in with Marville.
And together in 1911.
-
William George Starns married Ethel Beatrice Lucas, Paddington, Sep qtr 1902.
Their son William George Starns was born in 1904 (Hendon). Perhaps just about old enough to be lodging at 5 Marville Rd in 1918?
He was with his parents at 50 Clancarty Rd in 1928, & went on to marry Jessie I Neal in Chelsea in 1934.
-
Alternatively I wonder whether William Starns snr might have been conducting a covert relationship with Ethel while she lived in Marville Rd?
-
NB I haven’t read any old threads on this topic - hope we are not going over old ground.
-
I think you might be onto something here...seriously...
Why is William Starns not on the electoral roll for 5 Marville road in 1918? He was listed as 'Occupier of 5 Marville Road' on Dersmond's birth certificate...But all you've turned up there is Pinkertons.
I have a sneaky feeling - when you try and put all this toegtehr in your mind - that whilst we are assuming that Ethel was a youngster, that she actually might have been older (and therefore more likely to be with William Starns senior...or the pinkertons). This would also tie in with her being the Ethel born in 1878 with Jarvis as the dad...She would be 40. Still possible to have a baby at 40. I'm 35 and just had my first!
By the way Jervis Salter appeared on a later marriage certificate for Desmond. And through hearsay in the family too. But as I say, I think that he merely named his dad as Jervis Salter because that was Ethel's dad...or uncle - or some relative and that is all he knew to put on the marriage certificate. I know for certain there is a Jarvis/Jervis connection.
What do you think?
-
I think the fact that William Starns is the informant is likely to be significant. He does not seem to have been Ethel’s landlord. If he was just a fellow lodger or other unconnected male, why would he have got involved with registering the birth of her child?
William Starns snr’s marriage to Ethel Lucas was not very fertile - they had William George in 1904 and Blanche Kathleen in 1906, and that seems to have been the completion of their family. Small for the time, but we cannot reliably infer anything about the relationship from that.
As to why William Starns was not on the electoral roll for 5 Marville Rd - probably because he didn’t live there, at least not on a basis which qualified him to vote. If we have the right William (snr), it will be because his actual residence was the matrimonial home at 50 Clancarty Rd.
You haven’t told us anything about your research on Ethel Salter, so I can’t comment on that. In your opening post you said you thought she was born in 1895 ???
-
The baptism of William George Starns in 1904 shows his father’s full name as William George Stammers Price Starns, assistant steward.
When Blanche Kathleen was baptised in 1907, he was William George Starns, steward.
At first I though this might mean ship’s steward, but it looks in fact as though he was a workhouse steward (see 1911 census which we can’t give full details of on here). I don’t know exactly what this would have entailed, but if it involved supervising workhouse/infirmary inmates it might have meant he was often away from home overnight, providing (perhaps) cover for an extramarital relationship.
-
Hang on - I think we may have gone off an a bit of a frolic. If the baby was born in hospital, then “occupier” as the informant‘s qualification means occupier of the institution (which could be William Starns given that he was in that line of work).
What exactly does it say in column 7 of the birth certificate? How close was the date of registration to the date of birth?
-
Gone off on a frolic indeed!! My fault for researching late at night.
It says 'William Starns Occupier of 369 Fulham Road'.
Registered 31st December
This is like playing ping pong! Firstly I was with the Walker family in the wrong house on Marville Road...then with the workshouse steward - I am presuming it was a workshouse?? Now back to likely suspect being the Pinkerton sons lol
So... while we are at it...who was living at SIX Marville Road? I am pretty certain that the registrar has written a 5, and when I compare it to other 6's on the page, it looks nothing like a 6...but its certainly a funny 5 too...
I am convinced I'm going to find Desmond's dad on his birthday...
Alison xxx
-
OK well I think we can let William Starns off the hook, with apologies for casting aspersions on his character! Seems he was just doing his job at the infirmary. :D
The institution at 369 Fulham Rd was the forerunner of the modern Chelsea & Westminster Hospital.
-
6 Marville Rd:
1918: Reginald Osmond Allender (absent, naval or military)
1919: ditto
-
OK well I think we can let William Starns off the hook, with apologies for casting aspersions on his character! Seems he was just doing his job at the infirmary. :D
The institution at 369 Fulham Rd was the forerunner of the modern Chelsea & Westminster Hospital.
Well done avm!
Isn't it amazing how by asking 1 valid question to get 1 little bit of valuable info. can change a whole concept ;D
Annie
-
I have a sneaky feeling - when you try and put all this toegtehr in your mind - that whilst we are assuming that Ethel was a youngster, that she actually might have been older (and therefore more likely to be with William Starns senior...or the pinkertons). This would also tie in with her being the Ethel born in 1878 with Jarvis as the dad...She would be 40. Still possible to have a baby at 40.
Jervis' daughter Ethel married Edward FREWEN in 1905. In 1939 she has the correct day of birth but has given herself two extra years.
Debra :)
-
I have a sneaky feeling - when you try and put all this toegtehr in your mind - that whilst we are assuming that Ethel was a youngster, that she actually might have been older (and therefore more likely to be with William Starns senior...or the pinkertons). This would also tie in with her being the Ethel born in 1878 with Jarvis as the dad...She would be 40. Still possible to have a baby at 40.
Jervis' daughter Ethel married Edward FREWEN in 1905. In 1939 she has the correct day of birth but has given herself two extra years.
Debra :)
Interesting...I do still find it hard to believe that the Ethel on Desmond's Birth certificate is not connected to a Jervis/Jarvis of some description though...somehow at some point..and that's why Desmond called him his dad when he got married the second time. You dont just make up a name like Jervis.
But then again maybe me thinking that Jarvis being Ethel's dad might be a red herring altogether...maybe she did marry a man called Jervis - somebody later on after Desmond was born and that's why he assumed he was his dad??
From family hearsay and some records to back it up, I believe Desmond spent a large part of his childhood in orphanages. However, the records which I found in orphanages began when he was 14. I will see if I can dig them out. Apparently the 'only' memory Desmond had of his mother was her putting him on a bus to Mill Hill to an orphanage...
I also have reason to believe that perhaps Desmond himself went by the name of Jervis sometimes as well or that the names Desmond and Jarvis were interchangeable. I remember my dad saying something about while he was growing up there was 'kitbag' with the initials JD on it...he was told this was his dad's Desmond's bag - it was very significant to dad because it was the only thing of his he ever saw. it must have been something handed down as my dad never met his dad Desmond.
It's the trying to find out who my great grandma Ethel Salter is and where she comes from and goes to which is the problem - I remember this from ten years ago and this is why I gave up!
It's 100years since Desmond was born tomorrow and I WILL crack this mystery!
In case you haven't read this on another post - I do also have a hunch that Desmond's dad was not British...
Thanks for all your help.
-
The combination of the name Desmond plus a Catholic orphanage makes me wonder about Irish heritage.
What's the basis of your hunch about "non-British" - is it based on e.g. family appearance, or something else?
-
I'm sorry to cause a mess! I have returned to genealogy after many years away with a bid to solve this mystery. It is the only piece left to slot into the puzzle. So...it is my only focus and I am determined to solve it. There are many strands to solving it and I am persuing all of them BUT by Christmas time I will have a DNA kit. So I am doing the preliminary work first so that I can get a sense for the pertinent names which may well come up as a result of cousins found through DNA.
The DNA is following though..hence the post on the DNA board too ;D ;D
I'm sure there are many people who have that ONE major brickwall and try everything possible to solve it - especially when it's your own family name and you haven't even got it further than the 20th!!
I didnt know you could merge posts. I will ask.
Brigidmac - thanks for all your ideas. I have looked for a baptism record years ago but never found one. When I say looked, I mean scoured London...I will look into the fact that Jervis could be a surname. Still an awful coincidence that there is a Salter family with the Jarvis as a dad and a daughter called Ethel...in Fulham though. I accept that my Ethel isn't that ones daughter...but I do think there may be a connection there still.
Many thanks for all your invaluable work. Much appreciated!
Alison
-
I have a sneaky feeling - when you try and put all this toegtehr in your mind - that whilst we are assuming that Ethel was a youngster, that she actually might have been older (and therefore more likely to be with William Starns senior...or the pinkertons). This would also tie in with her being the Ethel born in 1878 with Jarvis as the dad...She would be 40. Still possible to have a baby at 40.
Jervis' daughter Ethel married Edward FREWEN in 1905. In 1939 she has the correct day of birth but has given herself two extra years.
Debra :)
British Archives suggests a W Salter as the father of Edith Lillian Salter that married Col Edward Laton Frewen in 1905
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/447e1bd5-24bd-4fd2-a73a-6dde8538f912
-
The combination of the name Desmond plus a Catholic orphanage makes me wonder about Irish heritage.
What's the basis of your hunch about "non-British" - is it based on e.g. family appearance, or something else?
Sorry I must have missed this post.
Non British - it is just a hunch and one of those intuitive feelings based on lots of little snippets of things throughout my life...and when you add them up...
Both me and my dad look very alike. We have very distinctive features. Neither of us look like our mothers, so the 'look' has to come from the paternal Salter line. We have quite 'squinty eyes' at the corners lol and the nose...the big nose! Where DID that come from!?? Many people have commented on our eyes looking a bit 'oriental'. On the other hand, I have for many years felt a strong connection with Eastern Europe. People over the years have too, mentioned that we have a slavic look. For as many generations that I know, there has always been a connection with Eastern Europe...women marrying Eastern European men. I have been touring those countries a few times and when I'm there, there just feels like some connection, like I belong there - I feel very at home out there particularly in Slovenia. It is very strong and I am a very intuitive person which has often turned up trumps - much to everyone's disbelief - in the past to be honest. Then the last few weeks when I was deciding to delve back into solving this gap in my tree, I have started seeing no end of references to Japan! Japanese connections popping up everywhere every day! I have always thought the connection was Eastern European or Russian perhaps, but now I'm not so sure! Anyway, I'm sure many people will think I am bonkers, but this kind of thing is very 'usual' for me and these hunches I have learnt, usually lead somewhere... :o
-
I'm unsure whether this will be of any help but...
avm mentioned an Irish connection with the names which actually switched on a light! ;D
If one considers an Irish accent & the surname Jarvis which would sound like Jervis (I've known of the surname in the past) then that could work?
Although not specifically known as an Irish surname in terms (it's Norman), they seem to have been in many places but the accent could be a clue?
I had a look for alternatives too, Jarvis, Jervis, Gervais (Ricky comes to mind) i.e. it may be worth digging as it is definitely a surname rather than a forename.
Annie
-
Dna will tell you straight away if you have a foreign grand father my mums DNA wa 24% European jewish ...so near quarter what you would expect and I have 11% and 51% Scots from my father
I do hope you solve it .
-
Thanks! Why do you think its definitely a surname?
-
Dna will tell you straight away if you have a foreign grand father my mums DNA wa 24% European jewish ...so near quarter what you would expect and I have 11% and 51% Scots from my father
I do hope you solve it .
Thanks for your encouragement! I know my grandad was born here but I have a feeling that his dad perhaps wasnt. SO you think that might turn up somehwere between 12%-25% from somewhere else then? I'm not sure how much to trust the ethnicity side of dna!
-
Rosinish - if there is an Irish connection, could you give me some clue where I should start looking??
-
Why do you think its definitely a surname?
I have come across Jarvis variant Jervis as a surname in the past.
When I said 'definitely a surname' it's likely anyone with Jervis as a forename/middle name has inherited it from the surname.
An e.g. 'Macaulay Culkin', Macaulay is more prominent as a surname than a forename.
A few searches on the name Jervis forename & surname & by far the name is more often used as a surname &/or a middle name rather than a forename.
When surnames are used as middle names it's usually an indication of a relationship/connection with that surname, often from the maternal line although not always.
Where there's illegitimacy, a surname as a middle name is often an indicator of the father again not always.
if there is an Irish connection, could you give me some clue where I should start looking??
The suggestion is only a possibility with the 'combined' names.
I wouldn't be looking in Ireland but closer to home.
I haven't read through all your threads but I would begin with finding out whether the names Desmond &/or Jervis have been used earlier on the maternal lines.
If not, I would be looking in the area where your ancestor was born, on census records for those names & Jervis whether surname or forename as a start.
Hope this helps to answer your questions?
Annie
-
When I grow up ...60 in Feb
I will officially be A time travel detective
Tho business wi be small
I love that there are Pinker tons in this story ..famous American detextiles
Went to a meeting for creative self employed business people and found someone who will help me produce website in error change for me proof reading g theither publicity etc ....I know on here it looks as if I'm dyslexia I but
It's visual. .fat fingers typing blind ans small window on mobile
I wanTed to share good easy with you ...if you can listen ton radio Bristol history program it's the one I collaborated of to solve missing babies
With BBC Shropshire at last episode of 5 daily they interviewed me
And now that b bristol is run ingredients the series they will interview me Fri eve by phone. ...don't know what time put it will be on playback and I.ll ask a computer geek to post links
I can help oe explain by phone better for some handy hints for birth father
Mum and I chose to pay cheshire records for 2 hours work to find affiliation order which had his full name address a d how much he had to pay for bastard chd til age 13
Pm me if you want phone chat ...or would like to become an official detective I your speciality ..I'm not good at finding birth records but am great ato outside the box ideas
My present title is FEELGOOD Facilitator and for Leicester community radio daytime 1449fm I am roving reporter and people finder ..coordinator a d job creator
-
Not sure whether this has been posted or asked?
What was the occ. of father Jervis on the 2nd marriage of Desmond Jervis?
Annie
-
My present title is FEELGOOD Facilitator and for Leicester community radio daytime 1449fm I am roving reporter and people finder ..coordinator a d job creator
sorry Brigidmac
what do you mean :) :) do you have a prog on Leicester radio.... ??
be nice to listen to .. should be able to get it :) if you have
xin
-
Reply #35 on: Wednesday 05 December 18 13:26
if there is an Irish connection, could you give me some clue where I should start looking??
I would begin with finding out whether the names Desmond &/or Jervis have been used earlier on the maternal lines.
After a few hrs of reading, checking, reading, further checking, reading & further checking, I have found a lot of my questions (whether in my head or on this thread) have been answered on other threads related.
However, I had started typing my finds as I was going along so I could copy/paste but have had to add a few bits...
This is a strange one & a long shot but not impossible :-\
I see this has already been mentioned here & has been on a few other threads too but I’m putting it up to keep it all simple!
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q273-X4B9
1881
Hill Street
St George Hanover Square
St Margaret & St. John the Evangelist Westminster, London, Middlesex, England (next door to Chelsea)
All surname Salter
Jarvis Head 29 b Wribbenhall, Worcester
Fanny Wife 31 b Horton, Northampton
Ethel Lilian Dau 3 b Chelsea, Middlesex (b 1878 (freebmd) i.e. 40 when Desmond was born)
Edith Mary Dau 1 b Westminster, Middlesex
Charles Jarvis Clerson Son 0 ditto
Emma Mother 59 b Bayton, Worcester
Although this Ethel married Edward Frewen in 1905 she took off to Gibraltar as Mrs Ethel Frewen with a/her dau Hilda Mary Frewen aged 1 in 1916 (no husband but states she's married) aged 34 (b c 1882)!, no info. on who she’s going to & no sign of her return.
Why was she going to Gibraltar?
Was she estranged from Edward?
Did she conceive Desmond whilst there?
Did she feel she had to use her maiden name when Desmond was registered?
Maybe Edward insisted his surname was not to be used?
Did she get back with Edward on the condition Desmond was put into an orphanage?
From one of the other links;
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=222405.msg6628406#msg6628406
“On his marriage his dad was Jervis Salter (deceased) in 1942”
From https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=804531.0
Reply #23 on: Sunday 02 December 18 22:01
1st Marriage;“Jervis Salter (deceased) given as father's name.”
“(I have since found that there is Jarvis Salter in his mum's line)”
Had I known, I wouldn't have suggested it.
2nd Marriage;
“Father and fathers occupation unknown”
This could be plausible (freebmd);
Death 1932
Salter Jarvis 80 Fulham 1a 449 (not far from Chelsea & Westminster)?
Annie
-
Another post here
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=804556.0
Given the number of posts already about this person, it's inevitable time will be wasted duplicating information.
Can I suggest you print off all the info given in the previous posts and then prepare a shortened version of the actual facts - not possible assumptions - to help clarify matters.
-
It may also be an idea to reply accordingly to posts when you already have info. to ideas given as in my reply above?
Reply #39 on: Today at 18:40
Annie
-
Although this Ethel married Edward Frewen in 1905 she took off to Gibraltar as Mrs Ethel Frewen with a/her dau Hilda Mary Frewen aged 1 in 1916 (no husband but states she's married) aged 34 (b c 1882)!, no info. on who she’s going to & no sign of her return.
Why was she going to Gibraltar?
Edward FREWEN was an Officer in the Army so probably no mystery there.
Debra :D
-
Thanks Dundee,
Maybe my thought isn't so far out if Ethel was back in England while hubby was serving then who knows :-\
The name Jervis just seems to be an odd choice at random considering he didn't have a middle name at birth?
Annie
-
Reply #35 on: Wednesday 05 December 18 13:26
if there is an Irish connection, could you give me some clue where I should start looking??
I would begin with finding out whether the names Desmond &/or Jervis have been used earlier on the maternal lines.
After a few hrs of reading, checking, reading, further checking, reading & further checking, I have found a lot of my questions (whether in my head or on this thread) have been answered on other threads related.
However, I had started typing my finds as I was going along so I could copy/paste but have had to add a few bits...
This is a strange one & a long shot but not impossible :-\
I see this has already been mentioned here & has been on a few other threads too but I’m putting it up to keep it all simple!
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q273-X4B9
1881
Hill Street
St George Hanover Square
St Margaret & St. John the Evangelist Westminster, London, Middlesex, England (next door to Chelsea)
All surname Salter
Jarvis Head 29 b Wribbenhall, Worcester
Fanny Wife 31 b Horton, Northampton
Ethel Lilian Dau 3 b Chelsea, Middlesex (b 1878 (freebmd) i.e. 40 when Desmond was born)
Edith Mary Dau 1 b Westminster, Middlesex
Charles Jarvis Clerson Son 0 ditto
Emma Mother 59 b Bayton, Worcester
Although this Ethel married Edward Frewen in 1905 she took off to Gibraltar as Mrs Ethel Frewen with a/her dau Hilda Mary Frewen aged 1 in 1916 (no husband but states she's married) aged 34 (b c 1882)!, no info. on who she’s going to & no sign of her return.
Why was she going to Gibraltar?
Was she estranged from Edward?
Did she conceive Desmond whilst there?
Did she feel she had to use her maiden name when Desmond was registered?
Maybe Edward insisted his surname was not to be used?
Did she get back with Edward on the condition Desmond was put into an orphanage?
From one of the other links;
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=222405.msg6628406#msg6628406
“On his marriage his dad was Jervis Salter (deceased) in 1942”
From https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=804531.0
Reply #23 on: Sunday 02 December 18 22:01
1st Marriage;“Jervis Salter (deceased) given as father's name.”
“(I have since found that there is Jarvis Salter in his mum's line)”
Had I known, I wouldn't have suggested it.
2nd Marriage;
“Father and fathers occupation unknown”
This could be plausible (freebmd);
Death 1932
Salter Jarvis 80 Fulham 1a 449 (not far from Chelsea & Westminster)?
Annie
Hi yes thanks for your hard detective work!
I have long since known about the 'Ethel with a dad called Jarvis Salter...in Fulham' family you mention here...the problem is that I cannot conclusively connect that that Ethel is my Ethel who gives birth in 1918 to Desmond. I think the name Jarvis linked with Salter linked with Fulham is almost a certainty but I like to go on concrete evidence in my family history!
There were some links to aristocracy (which another poster found) with this Ethel's sister...doesn't sound at all like my lot?!
I'm thinking getting this Ethel's marriage cert to Frewen and possibly dad Jarvis's death certificate in Fulham might give some clue with witnesses or informants? Other than that, I'm about to embark on the DNA route...and wait for 1921 to come out...I just wish I could find my Ethel - and prove she was my Ethel on 1911...I don't think I have missed anyone's post on that line of enquiry - at least I hope I haven't! There might be a link on the 1921 between Ethel and the Pinkerton family with whom she was living in 1918...something tells me one of those sons could have been my great grandad...
There are many lines to pursue and with very limited time and funds, it's knowing which one to choose!
Many thanks for your help everyone!
Alison
-
"I like to go on concrete evidence in my family history!"
Of course we do when funds afford & especially a direct line!!
I have an illegitimate g g/mother no 'concrete' evidence of the father but enough circumstancial evidence to be pretty sure or as sure as I can ever be.
Do let us know what transpires from the certs. when they arrive!
Annie
-
Hi All,
Just tpo update - I now have DNA results. Both myself and my Mum took tests so I am busy eliminating away. There are lots and lots of People on my dad's side with the name Salter and also some for Jarvis!!
It is quite obvious that there are people related to my elusive great grandad Mr X...I just need them to respond to my emails!
Alison
-
There are lots and lots of People on my dad's side with the name Salter and also some for Jarvis!!
It is quite obvious that there are people related to my elusive great grandad Mr X...I just need them to respond to my emails!
Good news you have connections but can you confirm whether 'Jarvis' ones are forename/surname/both?
Fingers crossed you get replies as it seems a lot of people on here have the same trouble i.e. getting responses :(
Annie
-
Thats brilliant
Let me know if you need any help with triangulating matches or getting round the no response problems ..i have a few tricks up my sleeve and did find a DNA cousin for my.mother despite not knowing who her.grandmother had married
I think the name Jarvis is very. likely to be the grandfathers name & not a clue to the birth father.
If a child was born out of wedlock a women could sometimes gain.more acceptance by naming her child after a parent .
Look forward to next episode
Ps Xinia yes i was doing some programs for a local community radio
And was interviewed by bbc bristol and shropshire about the missing.babies scandal .i have got audio recordings but dont know if i can post on rootschat
-
Hi!
Thanks for the offer of help! Does teh term triangulation refer to 'working out how 2 people are connected'. I'm new to this. I think I have eliminated a lot already. I have messaged lots and lots of peoples but so far only one has replied - one of the highest matches - and said he doesn't see any name connection. To him I am just a nobody...but this end, I have eliminated him down to be an ancestor of Mr X!! Aggghhhh
Alison
-
Yes i.meant comparing matches A B
BC CA and CB
Use the search matches for surname and or location .
Its a good idea if you use the share function where you can llook at your mums matches then yours
It would help if you had another sibling or known relative on your dads side as the DNA amounts are sometimes different.
-
Ok so I am in communication with the 2nd top match but he's not very forthcoming with info. He has however given me access to his tree.
Immediately I spotted a family of Jarvis'!! Only problem is that they are in Australia from the generation before the time that Desmond was conceived...The only Jarvis in England was from Harlow, Essex.
I dont see any other name connection...
Could you possibly explain the triangulation concept??
Thanks
Alison
-
The person who wouldnt communicate with you is very important because of course there wont be a name match with the father.
Can you explain how close the connection .
When you press shared matches with him look at the likely ages and names and regions on their trees .
Maybe creat another tree for yourself which is private put "mr x grandfather" as father of desmond give him a wife " x grandma" a son and daughter "mr x father / mother" then mr x with his initials
Then add any 2 sur names which comes up a few times as the parents of grandfather x .
You can then.have name guesses on.the way .build up 4 potential surnames for grandad x
Go back to mr x when a possibke tree created and say did you have a grandparent called ....x y z or w
If you or some kind person could draw up a chart it would help
I will pm how we did it with my examples wont put on here as it would confused things
When approached high match asked if he had a grandma with maiden name of R.... (we also knew her 1st name ) he said yes but she only had 1 child ..his dad !
Very surprised to learn she.d had another who was illigitimate
You could also ask if he had a grandfather with first name of desmond or jarvis ...and look out for those names in the distant trees as it might be a traditional family name .
Our guy hadnt got his grandmas side on his tree anyway cos only investigating fathers origins and paternal tree
Does this make sense ?
-
Ps is mr x a shared dna match to the austalian jarvis family
-
The baptism of William George Starns in 1904 shows his father’s full name as William George Stammers Price Starns, assistant steward.
When Blanche Kathleen was baptised in 1907, he was William George Starns, steward.
At first I though this might mean ship’s steward, but it looks in fact as though he was a workhouse steward (see 1911 census which we can’t give full details of on here). I don’t know exactly what this would have entailed, but if it involved supervising workhouse/infirmary inmates it might have meant he was often away from home overnight, providing (perhaps) cover for an extramarital relationship.
I am the grand daughter of William George Starns 1904, I heard from my late mother that his father had 2 families one in Holland, hence only 2 children. I understand he was the steward of a hospital in London, can't rember which