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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Essex => England => Essex Lookup Requests => Topic started by: AJS1947 on Wednesday 12 December 18 11:52 GMT (UK)
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Hi
I am new here and looking for information on
John William Spencer & Maud Harriet Spencer (Nee Goodwin)
I know they married in 1907 in West Ham and the 1911 Census has them living at 31 Wellington Place, Canning Town. and in 1913 they were living at 66 Bidder Street
If anyone is able to add to this information I would be extremely grateful
AJS1947
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Do you have any other information or certificates to give us more, it would help
Louisa Maud
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Welcome to Rootschat
At the moment I have found 3 births
1908 Rosina Maud
John Thomas 1910
Robert H 1913
all registered West Ham with mother's maiden name of Goodwin
Louisa Maud
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Hi
Thank you
I do not have anything for Rosina Maud or John Spencer but I do have my fathers birth certificate which show Robert Henry Spencer being born a 66 Bidder Street Canning Town.
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I believe John Spencer died in Kent, but I am chasing that information down.
There was also a William Spencer born in 1917 but at present no record can be found other than his Army Service records.
Thank you
AJS1947
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Hi and welcome to Rootschat, do you have the marriage certificate of John William Spencer and Maud Harriet Goodwin in 1907, what help do you need?
John could be the J Spencer aged 13 b Old Ford with parents W H 54 and S 50 , at 19, Preston Road, West Ham in 1901.
Keyboard86
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I feel sure a marriage cert between John Spencer and Maud Goodwin will be a good idea
Do you think Maud was a minor when marrying?
Louisa Maud
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Hi again, a John Spencer possibly married a Maud Goodwin Dec qtr 1907 West Ham 4a page 600?
Keyboard86
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I am trying to find a link for a marriage certificate !!!!!!
I wonder what was considered a minor in 1907 if this info I have is correct she was only 15
I have 2 DOB's now Abt 1890 and 1892
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Hi again, as you appear to know the middle names of John & Maud/e where was this obtained from?
Was the 1890 birth for Maud the one in June qtr 1890 West Ham 4a 50 of Maud Harriet Eliza Goodwin mmn Foster?
Keyboard86
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I got the dates from Ancestry search and the name from my fathers birth certificate wich shows them living at 66 Bidder Street in 1913
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OK so on your fathers birth certificate it shows Father John William Spencer and Mother Maud Harriet Goodwin.
Keyboard86
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I believe John Spencer died in Kent, but I am chasing that information down.
If there is a Kent connection, do you think that John William Spencer (age 49 in 1937) and daughter Rosina Maud (age 21 in 1929) died in Malling registration district?
Might possibly bring in this birth for Maud
Sep 1892 Malling 2a 638
Goodwin, Harriett Maud
mother Eggleton
The mother's maiden name may appear as Accleton on other Goodwin births, the family were in Luddesdown in 1901, including Maud age 8.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X9XT-1R9
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The Kent connection is on my mothers side
She was Dorothy Ivy Ellen Spencer (Nee Lovell) born Crockenhill Kent
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OK.
Well it doesn't matter anyway!
Harrriet Maud was baptized at Luddesdown in 1892 and it says born 15th June 1892
She married Ernest Tompkins in 1923
Wrong person! Sorry.
John
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OK so on your fathers birth certificate it shows Father John William Spencer and Mother Maud Harriet Goodwin.
Keyboard86
Hi again, can you confirm this is shown as the parents of your father?
Keyboard86
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Birth Certificate shows
John Spencer & Maud Spencer formerly Goodwin
Registered 10/12/1913
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Birth Certificate shows
John Spencer & Maud Spencer formerly Goodwin
Registered 10/12/1913
OK so where did John William & Maud Harriet come from, Ancestry Hints?
Keyboard86
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Hi again, a Rosina Maud Spencer b c 1908 died Dec qtr 1929 Malling Kent
Keyboard86
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Was the 1890 birth for Maud the one in June qtr 1890 West Ham 4a 50 of Maud Harriet Eliza Goodwin mmn Foster?
But did that one marry Walter Oxley in 1910?
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Was the 1890 birth for Maud the one in June qtr 1890 West Ham 4a 50 of Maud Harriet Eliza Goodwin mmn Foster?
But did that one marry Walter Oxley in 1910?
:) But now we know on the birth certificate it only showed John Spencer & Maud Goodwin, I have ignored that one?!
Think the family in 1901 is a possible for John Spencer, Father Henry occ Chimney Sweep/Sweep, as John b Old Ford, although they could use surname Spence?
Keyboard86
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To be honest until we find his father we cannot be sure, same with Maud Goodwin, I have found a family 1901 but I can't be 100% sure so will save it
Louisa Maud
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I think this is the birth reg of that one
June 1887 Poplar 1c 555
Spencer, John
mother Pedrick
Henry Spencer + Sarah Pedrick
10 February 1867
St James the Great, Bethnal Green
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Yes good old Ancestry
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Yes good old Ancestry
You need that 1907 marriage, and as per PM what was the mmn of William Spencer and pob in 1917, when did Maud die?
Keyboard86
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I am looking for a copy of the M/Cert at present on GRO
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I believe that
Joseph Richard Goodwin born circa 1854, Bromley
married
Alice Foster born circa 1856 Silvertown
1874
Although I can't find Maud's registration as yet
Louisa Maud
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AJS, it is nice to see you are also doing some own research not just leaving it all to us, good work
Louisa Maud
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Thanks you Louisa
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I believe that
Joseph Richard Goodwin born circa 1854, Bromley
married
Alice Foster born circa 1856 Silvertown
1874
Although I can't find Maud's registration as yet
Louisa Maud
Think that is the Maud Harriet Eliza found earlier?
Keyboard86
So who was mother and pob of William Spencer b c 1917, and death of Maud?
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I can trace my mothers side of the family back to 1811.
My fathers family is the enigma
There is no merit in letting others do all the work Louisa.
One other piece of information John Spencer is listed as labourer in charcoal works in 1913
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So ASJ are you saying you are looking for the Spencer family only and not the Goodwin family
Louisa Maud
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Hi I can now from PM's,:see the relevance of William Spencer b possibly 1917 as he is living with Robert H Spencer & Dorothy I Spencer c 1951/4 in Southall, Middlesex.
Keyboard86
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But electoral registers don't give year of birth!
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I am doing both but hit a brick wall with my fathers side so until I was able to get past that, I never looked at the Goodwin side
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Jon
Please bear with me as I am very new to this.
My thinking is that by using the electoral rolls I can confirm that the individual I can find records for is the individual I am researching.
So as I have my father being born in Bidder Street in 1913 and if the 1915 Electoral Roll showed a family living in Wellington Place with the same family members it would be fair to assume they moved to that address after my father was born.
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"Please bear with me as I am very new to this".
You are doing very well as a beginner, we all had to start from the begging, as I mentioned before you are also doing some research yourself, very rewarding and of course there is help amongst fellow rootschatters.
1939 register is where you will get the latest actual dates, find my past (FindMyPast) has s very good listing and Ancestry is coming up quickly behind them,
So, if you do get the marriage cert please let us know and we can follow up
Louisa Maud
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Jon
Please bear with me as I am very new to this.
Hi
Yes of course, and I am sorry. I'm afraid that I'm not being very helpful (nothing new there!)
The Spencer family that Keyboard found in West Ham is very interesting.
Here they are in 1891 (Spence, as mentioned)
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q2L9-5PZ
But I am now thinking that the John Spencer born Poplar 1887, mother Pedrick, may have died the following year.
Death, March 1888 Poplar 1c 438
Spencer, John
age 0
A birth registered a year later
March 1889 Poplar 1c 599
Spencer, William John
mother Pedrick
So could it be that William John was known as John?
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Marriage, Dec 1940 Malling 2a 3492
Lovell, Dorothy I E - spouse Spencer
Spencer, Robert H - spouse Lovell
Malling again. So perhaps that is the right death for father John in Malling in 1937 age 49? John William on death, William John on birth?
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Kind of late to the party,sorry. :)
I agree that John is probably the son of Henry SPENCER and Sarah PEDRICK.
Have you seen the 1939 register for your father? There are two MEYERS women living at the same address. I've convinced myself that they are Robert's cousin and her daughter.
Just showing my work..... :)
GRO Births
SPENCER, ADA mmn PEDRICK
1883 D Quarter in POPLAR Volume 01C Page 596
.......
FreeBMD
Marriages Mar 1907
SPENCER Ada W.Ham 4a 447
WEBB George James W. Ham 4a 447
........
GRO Births
WEBB, ROSINA ELLEN mmn SPENCER
1909 D Quarter in MALLING Volume 02A Page 77
.........
FreeBMD
Marriages Jun 1934
Webb Rosina E Meyers W.Ham 4a 335
Meyers John W Webb W.Ham 4a 335
...............
Ancestry Deaths
Name:
Rosina Ellen Meyers age 81 Birth Date:4 Oct 1909
Death: North Walsham Reg. July 1991
.......
Also-Rosina Maud SPENCER seems to travel to Canada in 1926 and comes back again in 1928. She lists her NOK as aunt Mrs. WEBB of Blyth Rd. Stratford.
Maureen
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Hi
Thank you so much
That also would explain another mystery.
There is a Rosina Meyers shown as living at the same address as my Mother & Father at my mothers parents address
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Birth
June 1849 Bethnal Green vol 2 page 22
Pedrick, Sarah
mother's maiden surname Eldridge
Possible death?
June 1936 Malling 2a 1097
Spencer, Sarah
age 87
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Thank you so much everyone.
I have the following people living at.
1 Tanyard Cottages
Ryarsh
Kent
1. Lovell Leonard W. Male 01/09/88 Wagoner/Stockman
2. Lovell Edith Female 15/10/91
3. Lovell Arthur H Male 04/10/17 General Farm Labourer
4. Lovell Dorothy I.E Female 29/03/23 Paper Sorter Paper Mill (My Mother)
5. Spencr Robert H Male 01/11/13 Paper Mill General Labourer (My Father
6. Meyers Rosina E Female 11/10/09 House Duties
7. Meyers Rosina L Female 11/11/24 Not at School the name Adams is written in
green ink above her name
I think this confirms the Rosina Meyers Link
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Hi again.
It seems I may possibly have been chasing the wrong John & Maud Spencer (Who said genealogy was easy)
I have just been on the phone to my cousin and she believes our grand mother was Maude/Maud Bennett (not Maud Goodwin) so I may have been chasing a red herring. (Though the only birth I can find is for Robert Henry Spencer, born 01/11/1913 to John Spencer & Maud Spencer formerly Goodwin.
We have my grandfather John William Goodwin's death as 1938 at 27 Barrack road, Larkfield, Kent.
John William Spencer served in the Essex Regt 1917 -1917 and was invalided out after being wounded at the Somme.
And my Uncle William Spencer born 1917 in Streatham
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Hi I have done a lot of work via PM, the sudden appearance of the mythical William Spencer b 1917 Streatham has come as a surprise, where did Streatham come from?
Which of your family have his birth certifcate?
Keyboard86
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Have you got the marriage from 1907, I feel if you think the family you have here is wrong perhaps you ought to start again from that marriage, OR go backwards from yourself through your parents, would be a shame if we were barking up the wrong tree as it were
Louisa Maud
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I am working backward as you suggest using all known facts.
Something check out and at present there is a question mark over my fathers mothers maiden name.
But it now transpires that his mother died in child birth giving birth to his brother William and both my father and his brother were brought up by their grand mother Sarah Spencer
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But where and when is the death of Maud Spencer?
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OK but as you are aware we cannot locate a likely birth for William 1917 and likely death for Maud?
When did John ( William ) Spencer join the Essex Regiment, and when was he discharged?
Keyboard86
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Can't find the 1917 birth as yet
Louisa Maud
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Nor could Williams son and daughter, they even visited Somerset House as it was then
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That's interesting, hate to set the cat amongst the pigeons but could he have been registered in a different name for reasons we don't know about, just a thought, don't want to hurt anyone feelings
Louisa Maud
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Where was Sarah Spencer living and is there a possibility she was still alive as at 1939?
Louisa Maud
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Where was Sarah Spencer living and is there a possibility she was still alive as at 1939?
If she was in Kent, she possibly may have died in 1936 (Reply #41)
I agree about the possibility of some goings on, but not only do we not have a death for Maud, we don't know who she is! Other than her name.
John
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We can be sure that Rosina Maud Spencer born to John and Maud Spencer has mother's maiden name of Goodwin, registered,
We are also assuming she was aged about 15 on marriage, 1907, so now we have to look at births with maiden name of Goodwin about 1917
Louisa Maud
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It looks as if Robert Henry Spencer was the last child registered to John Spencer and Maud Goodwin on freebmd's, this is really a puzzle
Louisa Maud
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this is really a puzzle
It certainly is!
Does AJS have the death of William Spencer?
From Q2 1969 the index will have date of birth
For example, William Spencer, died Dec qtr 1981, Maidstone
born 27 Jan 1917
I'm not saying that chap is the William Spencer, only that I can't say which one he might be at the moment.
So any date of birth that you might have for William, in 1917 or otherwise, might help :-\.
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Hi all, one thing I located and sent via PM is that William Spencer married a Constance M Wright in Ealing 1954, Constance died 2015 West Malling, and the OP attended the funeral.
It is that marriage which is required as well?
Keyboard86
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Can't find a 1917 birth that fits
Maud only uses her first Christian name as far as I can see, have we established where Harriet(t) comes from as yet
Louisa Maud
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Surely William Spencer born 1917 wasn't registered? , just thought, was he born abroad ?, has it been suggested that parents were abroad at sometime and therefore he wouldn't be registered in England
I would really like to find out who Maud's parents were on marriage cert, I also feel sure it is a register office marriage, well I stand to be corrected, as I am sure someone who belongs to SEAX might have come up with the marriage by now
Louisa Maud
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I also think that one the last census , (can't talk about it) except her date of birth is wrong by about 2 years, so I think we should be looking for her birth more towards 1890 and not 1892, BUT as always I stand to be corrected till we have a marriage cert
AJS, did you say you had sent for a marriage cert?
Louisa Maud
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William Spencer married a Constance M Wright in Ealing 1954, Constance died 2015 West Malling
Hi Keyboard
I guess it depends whether AJS wants to get the cert, or give the info if he has it.
But that is interesting, because it looks as though William may have died before 2002.
The only William Spencer born 1917 death in Kent is the one in 1981 I mentioned.
West Malling transferred to Maidstone district in 1941
So, William Spencer born 27 January 1917. Is that who we are looking for?
Louisa Maud, you are so right that we need to know what it says about Maud and her father on that marriage certificate. Otherwise I fear we may never find her!
John
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Yes John we do need that marriage cert to at least clarify Maud's parents and possible birth nearer to 1890, initially it looked as if she was married aged 15 ish but I have a suspicion she might have been 2 years older
Louisa Maud
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Hi again, all sorts of anomalies with the Spencer side, the Military Record of a John ( William ) Spencer 1917 - 1917 Essex Regiment, where was he 1914/17, at present cannot locate, if anyone can give us details?
Odd, birth 1917 for William, just when?
Keyboard86
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Jon
Please bear with me as I am very new to this.
My thinking is that by using the electoral rolls I can confirm that the individual I can find records for is the individual I am researching.
So as I have my father being born in Bidder Street in 1913 and if the 1915 Electoral Roll showed a family living in Wellington Place with the same family members it would be fair to assume they moved to that address after my father was born.
If you are saying the Wellington Place in Wesr Ham, this is where the John/Maud Spencer and family were in 1911 not post 1913 or are you saying your father was born in Bidder Street, and they moved back to Wellington Place?
Keyboard86
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It would seem they moved from Wellington Place and ended up in Bidder Street in 1913
I do not know if they moved directly to Bidder Street or if the were any other address where they lived
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Hi I do not know at what number your father was born in 1913 Bidder Street, West Ham, but a family with Bennett/Goodwin links were at 59, Bidder Street in 1911?
Joseph Bennett 43
Elizabeth 44
Daniel Goodwin 17
Georgina Goodwin 14
Keyboard86
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That is interesting , Bennett and Goodwin together, , AJS mentioned Bennett
LM
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Brilliant find, Keyboard!
I think it could lead to Maud...and her death
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Georgina Cupp Goodwin mother's maiden name Connelly same as Daniel Uriah Goodwin, both born West Ham reg district
Louisa Maud
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:) Now find the Alice Maud Goodwin aged 10 on 1901 with a George COPP and Elizabeth Goodwin in West Ham
Census ref RG13/1570/100/19
Keyboard86
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In Pond Road.
How extraordinary, a couple of my Sickelmore relations are in Pond Road in 1901. They may have bumped into Maud!
Death
Dec 1919 West Ham 4a 282
Spencer, Alice Maud
age 29
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OK if the Pond Road family is correct, is the Georgina b c 1897 the same as the Georgina Goodwin in 1901 RG13/1581/8722?
Keyboard86
PS the only birth with a chance in West Ham with mmn Connelly c 1891 is an Emma North Goodwin Dec qtr 1889, but Emma North Goodwin seems to have died June qtr 1890 West Ham aged 0?
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If Maud/Alice Maud died during childbirth there doesn't seem to be a birth that fits in around that time
Louisa Maud
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OK if the Pond Road family is correct, is the Georgina b c 1897 the same as the Georgina Goodwin in 1901 RG13/1581/8722?
Georgina Cupp Goodwin, mmn Connelly
Elizabeth Cupp Goodwin, mmn Connelly
Both registered Sep 1897 West Ham 4a 158
Georgina Goodwin, adopted daughter, in 1901
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X9NL-SW4
I don't know for sure if it's the same one.
But, could William have been adopted? Born during the war, and perhaps orphaned?
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Alice Maud died West Ham area, so I assume a child would have been born in that registration area about the same time, once again I think the death cert for Alice Maud would be a good idea, 1929
Louisa Maud
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Hi an Elizabeth Capp Goodwin died Dec qtr 1897 West Ham aged 0
Keyboard86
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Back to William born circa 1919, I am assuming that is when William was born if his mother died in childbirth, he isn't listed first quarter 1920 just in case he was registered late, if his mother died in West Ham district I feel sure he was born in the same district, makes sense somehow
I feel sure he would have needed a birth cert to get a pension, what about his marriage certificate?
I have had another look at spelling variations, no joy
Great when one has sleepless nights !!
Louisa Maud
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Sorry but you have all the information I have.
Both of my cousins are adamant that there is no birth certificate for there father.
The only record is of him marrying Constance Wright in Ealing in 1954 which keyboard86 found
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My cousin was under the impression that our grandmothers name was Bennett who raised my father and his brother after their mother died,but my fathers birth certificate clearly states Maud Goodwin s his mother.
I mentioned I had an Aunt Ett, could this be a sibling of the Bennett mentioned as it was common to refer to close family friends as Aunt.
Maybe and this is only a guess Benett was shorted to Ett and for a child aunt Ett would be easier to say than Aunt Bennett!!!!!!!!!
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Hi I do not know at what number your father was born in 1913 Bidder Street, West Ham, but a family with Bennett/Goodwin links were at 59, Bidder Street in 1911?
Joseph Bennett 43
Elizabeth 44
Daniel Goodwin 17
Georgina Goodwin 14
Keyboard86
So which mumber in Bidder Street was your father born?
Keyboard86
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66 Bidder Street as in my opening post
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:) Apologies, but scrolling back 10 pages is something I never thought of!
Where did you locate the WW1 Record for John William Spencer?
And is it your belief the death of the Alice Maud Spencer aged 29 is Maud?
Keyboard86
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My brother had his discharge book so I contacted Essex Regt museum and also used Ancestry as I had his service number
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No I do not think Alice Maud was the one
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No I do not think Alice Maud was the one
OK so now we have a Maud Harriet Goodwin who married a John William Spencer in 1907 which possibly turned out to be the John Spencer who married Maud Goodwin 1907 West Ham, your father"s birth certificate does not show a John William and Maud Harriett, so with a Bennett/Goodwin family in Bidder Street in 1911 we shoud ignore the Alice Maud Goodwin who possibly married a Spencer and died aged 29 West Ham?
Keyboard86
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AJS
As a matter of interest, to save me scrolling through all of this, did your grandfather marry again after the assumed death of Maud
Louisa Maud
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No I do not believe he did
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OK I now think their is no way forward on this thread until you supply the possible 1907 marriage, and that for William to Constance 1954 Ealing.
Keyboard86
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We are getting a bit repetitious and stuck, yes the 1907 marriage cert should reveal more answers, parents of both bride and groom and their witnesses
Louisa Maud
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We are getting a bit repetitious and stuck, yes the 1907 marriage cert should reveal more answers, parents of both bride and groom and their witnesses
Louisa Maud
:) I would want to see the 1954 marriage, as that did occur
Keyboard86
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I agree that we have gone as far as we can at this moment in time.
I am trying to find the marriage in 1907 at GOR if and when I manage to obtain it I will post a copy on here.
Thanks to everyone who has assisted.
I hope you all have a great Xmas and Happy New Year
Tony
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Let us know how you get on
regards
Louisa Maud
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Well as you know we have been trying to trace the birth records of William Spencer without success.
All attempts using Ancestry & BMD failed.
On an off chance I tried entering all the information we have in GRO and bingo up comes a option to purchase the birth certificate.
I have now ordered a copy but sadly that will not arrive until later part of January.
HAPPY CHRISTMAS
AJS911
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Good Luck, please let us know, we are not nosey parkers we like to now we have gone some way to help, assuming you can collate it all and get the right answer as it were, personally I don't like unsolved problems
Happy Christmas to you
Louisa Maud
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Hi Louisa Maud, the odd thing about this birth reg is that it can be ordered, but has no volume or page number cannot see how this can occur?
Information obtained via PM
Keyboard
Merry Christmas to you.
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I have now ordered a copy
Good job! Hope you've ordered the marriage too. Important news from Peter Calver
https://www.lostcousins.com/newsletters2/xmasday18.htm#BMD
Happy Christmas
John
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from the information I now have I can confirm the following
John & Maud Spencer living at Wellington Place are indeed my Grandfather & Grandmother
The 2 children Rosina Maud Spencer and John Thomas Spencer are my Aunt and Uncle
Rosina Maud died at the age of 21
John Thomas died at the age of 22.
At some point they moved to 66 Bidder Street where my father Robert Henry Spencer was born in 1913.
A further son William was born in 1917 but detail of his birth are unknown at present but I am hoping to receive a copy of his birth certificate from GRO towards the end of January together with a copy of my grandparents marriage certificate.
I am deeply indebted to
LouisaMaud
Keyboard86
JONW65
For their help and assistance.
AJS1947
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Another dead end as regards William Spencer
GRO Refund - Account Number: 7460264 Order Number: 9768273 - 2
Inbox
x
The General Register Office <col.admin@gro.gsi.gov.uk>
11:40 AM (2 hours ago)
to me
Dear Anthony Spencer,
Thank you for your order as detailed below.
Birth Certificate: WILLIAM SPENCER born 27-JAN-1917 in LONDON
We have been unable to process your application, please refer to the paragraph below.
We have searched the indexes for events registered in England and Wales during the years specified (1916-1918). We have been unable to find any entry with the details you provided.
For more information please read the frequently asked questions on our website under the heading, “Most Customers Want to Know”.
A full refund of £9.25 has been credited to your account via Worldpay.
Any personal information you provide to us will be handled in accordance with data protection legislation. Further information on how we process your personal information can be found at https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/hmpo-privacy-information-notice
Yours sincerely
Certificate Production
Civil Registration Directorate
Her Majesty's Passport Office welcomes calls via Text Relay services;
To use this service dial 18001 followed by 0300 123 1837
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Thank you for up to date info, oh dear how strange ONS couldn't find a birth registration for William Spencer
From 1875 it was compulsory to register a birth within 42 days of birth, William born 1917 is indeed a mystery
I think you have his date of birth ?, did you find him on 1939 (might have asked that before)
is it a possibility he was adopted by the family
Fortunately ONS did refund your money which is a good thing
Anthony, I really don't know where you can go from here, would really like to solve this for you
I guess it is more conversation with any living relatives to glean as much as you can
Louisa Maud
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Hi sorry about the feedback from the GRO re Williams' birth, if I recall from PM's you agreed with the Sept qtr 1954 Ealing marriage of William Spencer to Constance ( Connie ) M ( Surname deleted as possibly still alive )
Possibly your next chance to find out who he is?
Their is another death of a Spencer in Maidstone District 1981:-
William Spencer b 27th January 1917 died Dec qtr 1981 v16 page 1405
I believe Constance M was still alive in 2015 West Malling.
Keyboard86
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Yes that was the William Keyboard86
I am still waiting for my cousins to send me a copy of the marriage certificate.
(They are among the few people left who do not use emails or the internet)
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Yes that was the William Keyboard86
I am still waiting for my cousins to send me a copy of the marriage certificate.
(They are among the few people left who do not use emails or the internet)
The Constance I mentioned was living in Mill Street, West Malling in 2015.
Keyboard86
PS or the other option as it it has been a long time since you mentioned your cousins had the marriage certificate, is as you have saved £9:25 on his birth is purchase the marriage yourself!!
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Will look forward to the marriage cert arriving by snail mail, till then, one again, it is a waiting game
Louisa Maud
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"John William Spencer served in the Essex Regt 1917 -1917 and was invalided out after being wounded at the Somme."
That accounts for father being shown on marr cert 1954 as "disabled soldier"
Louisa Maud
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What marriage certificate?
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Yes that was the William Keyboard86
I am still waiting for my cousins to send me a copy of the marriage certificate.
(They are among the few people left who do not use emails or the internet)
:) This one.
Keyboard86
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EDIT. I've got it now. I was feeling left out!
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Hi again, so for reference, we have a William Spencer marrying in Ealing 1954 occ Electricians mate b 1916/7 (Previous marriage dissolved) who was living in West Malling Kent at time of marriage.
His stated father was John William Spencer ( Deceased ) occ Disabled Soldier he served 1917/1917, a William Spencer b 27th January 1917 died Maidstone 1981
A lot happened c 1917?
Keyboard86
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Hi via PM I have received information that William Spencer b 1917 was cared for by his paternal grandmother Sarah Spencer nee Pedrick who possibly died aged 87 Malling, Sarah possibly married a Henry Spencer 1867 Bethnal Green, just need some help on these census returns:-
Henry Spencer 33 Sweep
Sarah 30
Henry 13
Alfred 11
Sarah 8
Charley 5
Rose 3
Ellenor 1
1881 census RG11/492/121/38
1901 Census West Ham
W H Spencer 54 occ Chimney Sweep b Waltham Cross
S 50 b Bethnal Green
R 23 Daughter b Old Ford
E 20 Daughter b Old Ford
A 18 Daughter b Old Ford
J 13 Son b Old Ford
W 8 Son b Stratford
N 3 Daughter b Stratford
G 1 Son b Stratford
Census ref RG13/1563/22/36
The Stratford born children appear to be illegitimate, although cannot locate the "W" b c 1893?
They look to be the transcribed SPENCE family in 1891 Census ref RG12/1310/48/26
Also William and first wife had 1 child, and were divorced in Scotland.
Keyboard86
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I have really concentrated on William Spencer born Jan 1917 to no avail, no baptisms or registration but somehow I feel he must have been registered surely, wasn't it compulsory after 1875.
I feel the 1921 census would be the next point to check, not long now !!!
Louisa Maud
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Hi again, Rosina Spencer married James Thomas Downes/Downs Sept qtr 1901 and is on 1911 with him and illegitimate children from 1901 in the same road as her widowed mother Sarah Spencer, by the looks of it James T Downes remarries 1919 to Harriet Stock in West Ham.
What happened to Rosina 1911/1919
Just getting this off my notepad!
Keyboard86
-
Hi Keyboard86
I think you have the wrong Rosina
Rosina Spencer died from a chest infection aged 21 and is buried in Snodland Cemetry in Kent
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Hi Keyboard86
I think you have the wrong Rosina
Rosina Spencer died from a chest infection aged 21 and is buried in Snodland Cemetry in Kent
No problem, so Rosina was not the one who married James Thomas Downes and is living in same road as her widowed mother Sarah in 1911?
Can you confirm/deny 1891/1901 census?
Keyboard86
EDIT that Rosina died aged 21 Malling as Rosina M Spencer 1929?
I am looking at the family pre 1917?
-
Not to my knowledge.
I only know that there were 4 children
Rosina, John, Robert Henry and William
Rosina died aged 21 of a chest infection, John who was in the army committed suicide.
Both Rosina and John are buried in Snodland Cemetry
-
I will look at the Census records though
-
I will look at the Census records though
Bear in mind I have been looking at a marriage of a Sarah Pedrick to a Henry Spencer c 1867?
Keyboard86
-
Sarah Pedrick was not Rosina's Mother but her Grandmother.
-
Sarah was still married to John William Spencer in 1917 when he returned from the Great War and was invalided out. So I do not see how she could be a widow
This genealogy certainly throws up some interesting questions
-
;) So Henry Spencer did not marry a Sarah Pedrick 1867 Bethnal Green, but married a John William Spencer?
Keyboard86
-
Bear in mind I have been looking at a marriage of a Sarah Pedrick to a Henry Spencer c 1867?
Keyboard86
Right, back to basics
10/02/1867
St James the Great Bethnal Green
Henry Spencer aged 20 whitelead maker ?, father William Henry dec'd
to
Sarah Pedrick full age father William Pedrick, chimney Sweep
Both of Bethnal Green
witnesses Henry and Hannah Davis
Louisa Maud
PS. I am finding this all very frustrating to be honest, there must be a reason why the birth and death are not registered, one left off yes, but 2 I find incredible in 1917
-
Henry and Sarah has a daughter Rosina born 1878
Rosina married to James Downes/Downs was born circa 1879
Louisa Maud
-
Keyboard86
Yes Henry Spencer Married Sarah Pedrick (Where and when I do not know as have not researched them yet.)
What I do know and can verify is that John William Spencer Married Maud Godwin and they had 4 children.
-
:) But as you know, married as John Spencer and looks to be the John/J on 1891/1901 census?
Keyboard8_
-
AJS
I have decided to drop back from your query, although I , along with others have found lots of information that might be useful we haven't been able to solve your original query, I feel as if I am going round in circles
I am sure you will solve this on 1921 census, I can't wait
Louisa Maud
-
AJS
I have decided to drop back from your query, although I , along with others have found lots of information that might be useful we haven't been able to solve your original query, I feel as if I am going round in circles.
I agree that an awful lot of information has been found, nearly all of it by yourself, LM, and keyboard (who has been amazing)
William has been the biggest mystery, but most of everything else seems to have fallen into place.
If Tony - or his cousins - one day try for that death certificate - or pdf - of Alice Maud Spencer in 1919, I think it would be a good idea, as we all seem to think it could be the right one.
John
-
My sincere and profound thanks to you Louisa for all your help and encouragement.
I will continue to resolve the remaining issues.
-
Please come back if you need any more help in whatever name or area, us Rootschatters like a challenge
AJS, you did very well with your research
Happy hunting
Louisa Maud
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That death
Alice Maud Spencer, age 29, Dec 1919, West Ham 4a 282
Looks like the death was very early on in October.
The sub district is North Leyton
So, out of area, but it could have been at the West Ham Infirmary (Whipps Cross)
-
Hi again all, another set off my notepad I wish to get rid of:-
From 1911 census:-
Ellen Rosina Downs 1898
Alfred Henry Downs 1900
William Spencer 1893
shown in household of James T Downs and Rosina Downs, think they are Spencer on 1901 census, and Alfred Henry possibly the "G"?
All born Stratford, what happened to them?
Keyboard86
EDIT James Thomas Downes married ROINA Spencer Sept qtr 1901 West Ham.
-
Everytime I see this come up I hope there has been some development to find William and his mother 1917, I really cannot understand why 2 registrations have been missed, said it all before, must admit I have been rummaging around again today looking for more clues to no avail, nothing on findagrave either, it really is a puzzle and I don't like unsolved problems.
I did see the census, yes,the siblings were on 1901as Spencers
AJS must be as confused as we are.
Louisa Maud
-
I think if I can locate the death of Maud Spencer in 1917 it will solve the riddle of her son William Spencer.
As her husband John William Spencer was fighting overseas at the time of her death I am guessing her death would have been registered by one of her parents, possibly Sarah Spencer Nee Pedrick
That is just an assumption.
What is really strange is we can find no record of Mauds death or Williams birth despite the best efforts of Louisa Maud, Keyboard86 and Jonw65
-
Louisa
I think they have reserved a bed in the psychiatric ward.
-
:) The only birth for the 1893 William Spencer b West Ham has mmn Sedgrock he was a twin to an Andrew Spencer, Andrew died aged 0?
Keyboard86
-
Wonder if that is a miss spelling of Sedgrock?
Marriage Spencer to Sedgrock?
LM
-
I am confused as to where the 1893 William Spencer comes in ?
The William we are all searching for was born 1917 which I know to be fact based on conversations with both my father and uncle.
-
:) Just because he is shown with Henry and Sarah Spencer as a son born 1893 Stratford, another one who disappears after 1911 with Downs family?
Keyboard86
-
No such surname SEDGROCK
LM
-
What about a miss spelt PEDRICK and not SEDGROCK
Sarah was reported to have had 12 birth, 8 survived
LM
-
What about a miss spelt PEDRICK and not SEDGROCK
Sarah was reported to have had 12 birth, 8 survived
LM
;) I do like that!
Keyboard
-
The last 3 children on 1901
W I assume William 1893 (Sedgrock) twin
N I assume Rosina Ellen 1898 no MMN
G I assume George 1900 no MMN
Possibilities
William 1893 might be Sarah's going by the MMN
Rosina and George belong to Rosina who married Mr Downes/Downs on 1911
LM
-
1867 William Henry Spencer
1870 Arthur Alfred
1872 George
1873 Sarah Ann
1876 Charles William
1878 Rosina
1881 Emily Maud
1883 Ada
1887 John
1899 William John
All born Poplar and all with MMN Pedrick, amounts to 10
Andrew and William, I wonder about these 2 because why would Sarah call another son William unless William Henry born 1867 died, working on that
Louisa Maud
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:) Good to see a list of Pedrick births amazing how many times William is part of this famiies names, makes me wonder about William 1917, and if his first name was indeed William?
1881 census:-
Henry Spencer 33 occ Sweep
Sarah 30
Henry 13
Alfred 11
Sarah 8
Charley 5
Rose 3
Ellenor 1 ( Emily Maud )?
Census ref RG11/492/121/38
Keyboard86
-
Thank you for that List
Do we think that William John Spencer is the same John William Spencer /
William John is listed as 1899 whereas I have John William as 1889.
All the other children were born fairly close together where as with William John Spencer there was a 10 year gap
-
Just adding more detail to my Tree on Ancestry and I have a number of "Hints" but they have the same Sarah Pedrick birth details but have her death as 1914 in West Ham ? where as I have her as dying in 1936 aged 87 in Malling Kent
-
If Sarah died in 1914 then it throws out the fact that William born 1917 wasn't brought up by her, I will have a look for you
Louisa Maud
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I have a listing for Sarah Spencer as having died in Kent aged 87
-
Tony , ignore the hints if you know better
LM
-
Just a thought
I could get a copy of Sarah Spencer's death certificate to see who registered the death.
By my reckoning it could have been my father as he would have been 22 at the time or his brother William who would have been 18 .
-
Yes Tony, that might be a good idea, the other family tree has all the other details, not checked a Goodwin against it yet
LM
-
Has Tony got the 1907 marriage certificate? Because it may help, particularly with Maud.
John
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Has Tony got the 1907 marriage certificate? Because it may help, particularly with Maud.
John
? Think Tony has, as either by PM or on this thread he agrees he married as John Spencer ( I think)?!
Keyboard86
PS also suggested he stops using Ancestry hints, and research himself, or with help from Rootschat.
The Sarah who died 1914 West Ham was Sarah E Spencer aged 64.
-
Hi again, looking at census returns Sarah appears to be the Sarah Pedrick b Sept qtr 1849 Bethnal Green mmn Eldridge.
Keyboard86
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Hi Jonw65
Yes I have the 1907 Marriage Certificate
Is there anything in particular you wish to know off it ?
-
Hi Tony
Can you just confirm the basics? The father of John of course, although I think the Spencers seem to be cleared up.
What I would particularly like to know, please, is what it says about Maud and her father, including address if poss. Since we really need to be sure of her in order to help with when and where she might have died.
Sorry to be a nuisance!
Thanks
John
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John, I am sure Tony won't think you a nuisance, he does realise we are trying to help him solve his mystery, must admit would like to solve this myself, time will tell before we can say " ah yes, solved it",
in time I am sure we will
Louisa Maid
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Hi Jon
Definitely not a nuisance.
John Spencer/19 Years/Bachelor/99 Stanley Road, Stratford/Henry Spencer (Deceased) Chimney Sweep.
Maud Goodwin/20 Years/ Spinster/130 Pond Road, West Ham/Robert William Goodwin/Mariner
Hope that helps.
Tony
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Hi Tony
Thank you for that.
It confirms John son of Henry the chimney sweep (as expected!)
Maud's address is interesting, I thought it was familiar. If you go back to the 1901 census we had Alice Maud Goodwin, age 10, living at 130 Pond Road, West Ham. With George Copp and the widowed Elizabeth Goodwin and Elizabeth's other children.
Quick look - Elizabeth Goodwin married John Bennett in 1909
John
-
If that is the case we are back to a death
Alice M Spencer
1919 Dec qtr
aged 29
West Han
Ref 4a 282
Previously mentioned
Louisa Maud
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So is Maud actually Alice Maud Goodwin, and dropped the Alice ?
If so that would make her 17 and not 20 when she married or did she have an elder sister?
Nothing is ever simple
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Hi
It seems that she added a few years to her age when she married in 1907. She was 19 in 1911.
It was keyboard who found Pond Road 1901 in Reply #70, but did we ever find the birth registration of Alice Maud?
John
-
I haven't but will certainly get searching tomorrow
-
1891 RG12/1318 FOLIO 106 PAGE 50
Father Robert in residence, able seaman
LM
-
On the face of it Alice Maud Goodwin would have been 15/16 in 1907 and not 20.
Her father must have known her correct age
The witnesses were her Mother and father
-
1909 Elizabeth Goodwin
married
John Bennett
West Ham
4a 330
Check 1911
Louisa Maud
Possible MMN of Elizabeth Connally/Connelly/Connolly
possible marriage 1880 Elizabeth Connally
to
Robert Goodwin
W Derby
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Where does Elizabeth fit into the picture ?
My father Robert Henry Spencer birth certificate shows his Mother as Maud Goodwin and place of birth 66 Bidder St Canning Town
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The way I see it is, Elizabeth Goodwin was Maud/Alice Maud's mother, she became Elizabeth Bennett on her second marriage
Yes, Robert's mother was Maud /Alice Maud Goodwin, along with John, Rosina and William
66 Bidder Street was the abode of Elizabeth and her new husband John Bennett
Louisa Maud
-
Well I think Alice Maud's death cert is needed now to clarify the situation, think now she only used Maud perhaps to cover up she married so young, but hopefully we got there in the end
The clues were all there early on to be honest but the Alice Maud/Maud threw me
Still no birth for William showing up
Louisa Maud
-
1891 RG12/1318 FOLIO 106 PAGE 50
Father Robert in residence, able seaman
Image here
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSQQ-GYT?cc=1865747
Yes, 1841-1891 census images on FamilySearch today!
Some Goodwin - Connelly births in West Derby
Still not found Alice Maud birth
-
Possible MMN of Elizabeth Connally/Connelly/Connolly
possible marriage 1880 Elizabeth Connally
to
Robert Goodwin
W Derby
That marriage was at Kirkdale St. Mary, 22 August 1880
Robert Goodwin was a Mariner, father Robert Goodwin, deceased
Elizabeth's father was Samuel Connally, deceased
Residence for both Everton.
Free image here
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-896B-TX8?i=295&cat=673632
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Got a feeling John children were born in Liverpool
Would make life easier if they didn't switch names
LM
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Tony, if we have got it right info you must have a really comprehensive tree by now
Louisa Maud
-
Wellington Place and Bidder Street in 1893 (Ordnance Survey)
https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=19&lat=51.5181&lon=0.0037&layers=163&b=1
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Probably a silly Newbie question
Is it possible to access the Electoral Roll for say 1958 for Rosher Row, Stratford ?.
-
Think they should be on Ancestry
Louisa Maud
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Did you notice St Gabriel's church is nearby, wonder if any of the Spencer children were baptised there, would be a great find if we found William, pity I don't have a Seax sub now
Louisa Maud
-
deleted
LM
-
Hi again all, another set off my notepad I wish to get rid of:-
From 1911 census:-
Ellen Rosina Downs 1898
Alfred Henry Downs 1900
William Spencer 1893
shown in household of James T Downs and Rosina Downs, think they are Spencer on 1901 census, and Alfred Henry possibly the "G"?
All born Stratford, what happened to them?
Keyboard86
EDIT James Thomas Downes married ROINA Spencer Sept qtr 1901 West Ham.
I wish I could say we have cleared up the Spencer side of the family, eg why is Henry Spencer transcribed as W H Spencer with family on reply 129
Census ref RG13/1563/22/36?
EDIT Robert Goodwin b c 1856 occ Mariner b Chester and Elizabeth b c 1862 Scotland are lodgers in Crete Street, Kirkdale in 1881 census ref RG11/3674/113/44
Keyboard86
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I agree with the 1881 census Keyboard but so far cannot find a birth reg for Alice Maud Goodwin, she has siblings but she is shown as 10 years old on 1901 but nothing before
I, rightly or wrongly assume William born 1893 is something to do with Rosina who married Mr Downs
I have just thrown a whole host of paperwork away, shredded
LM
-
going back Keyboard
1893
William Spencer
West Ham
Ref 4a 11
MMN Sedgrock
I remember saying there was no such surname but it wasn't dissimilar to Sarah's MMN
I think he was shown on an earlier census as son to Sarah Spencer, plus 2 others younger than him, if so Sarah was producing children very late in life ??
LM
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Hi L M he is the W on the 1901 shown with W H Spencer above?
Keyboard
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Don't think we know who he belongs to
Keyboard can you or John check this out please
1901 130 Pond Rd
RG13/1570 F100 P 19
Goodwin names and birth places all over the place, Elizabeth shown as born in Guernsey, brother surname Copp/Cupp,
Georgina born 1897 is Georgina Cupp, MMN Connelly
Louisa Maud
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:) George Copp 23 occ Farrier b Guernsey is in West Ham 1891 census
RG12/1317/94/42
Keyboard
-
But he states he is Elizabeth Goodwin's brother but on various other census she states born Scotland
LM
-
Marriage
22 August 1880, Kirkdale St Mary
Robert Goodwin (father Robert) + Elizabeth Connally (father Samuel)
For births have to be careful, there are some Goodwin - Connolly births in West Derby at the same time
Births, all with mother's maiden surname Connelly
Robert William Goodwin, Sep 1881, West Derby 8b 427
Robert Samuel Goodwin, Dec 1883, West Derby 8b 274
Martha Ann Goodwin, March 1886, West Derby 8b 373
William Goodwin, March 1887, West Derby 8b 409
Death
Martha Ann Goodwin, age 0, March 1886, West Derby 8b 324
Is this Martha one of "ours"?
Then the move down south
Births, mother Connelly
Emma North Goodwin, Dec 1889, West Ham 4a 130
Daniel Uriah Goodwin, March 1894, West Ham 4a 137
Elizabeth Cupp Goodwin, Sep 1897, West Ham 4a 158
Georgina Cupp Goodwin, Sep 1897, West Ham 4a 158
Deaths
Emma North Goodwin, age 0, June 1890, West Ham 4a 31
Elizabeth Cupp Goodwin, age 0, Dec 1897, West Ham 4a 78
Was Robert Goodwin really the father of Georgina and Elizabeth?
1891 RG12/1318 FOLIO 106 PAGE 50
Father Robert in residence, able seaman
Now in that 1891 Goodwin household are
Martha Newell(?), sister in law, married, 24, born Liverpool
Martha Newell, niece, 7, born Poplar
But so far I haven't found the two Marthas in anything else.
John
-
Births, mother Connelly
Emma North Goodwin, Dec 1889, West Ham 4a 130
Daniel Uriah Goodwin, March 1894, West Ham 4a 137
This is our big problem. In that gap should be Alice Maud / Maud. Possibly Dec 91/March 92 or thereabouts.
-
Marriage
22 August 1880, Kirkdale St Mary
Robert Goodwin (father Robert) + Elizabeth Connally (father Samuel)
Witnesses were James Hy Richards, Mary Jane Richards
Possible marriage
March 1875 West Derby 8b 530
Connelly, Mary Jane
Richards, James Henry
That was also at Kirkdale St Mary, 8 February 1875
Mary Jane's father was Samuel Connelly, Painter
Image here
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-L96B-TS66?i=21&cat=673632
-
This looks like the Richards family in 1881.
In Adelaide Street, Everton
Mary J. Richards born Scotland. The two children were registered in West Derby district.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q27L-6V4R
-
I feel sure that Robert is the father of the 2 children
On census 1901 she is shown as "W" but I haven't found a death that fits in with the timing
LM
-
John, how about this
Baptism
Harriet Martha WEWELL
BORN 16/05/1884
BAPT 10/02/1885
MOTHER Martha
AT All Hallows Poplar
Reg'd June qtr 1884 Harriet Martha WHEWELL, no MMN
Is this the child Martha on census
Louisa Maud
-
Brilliant, Louisa Maud!
Yes, they must be the two Marthas in 1891.
As it said the elder Martha was sister in law to Mr Goodwin, and born Liverpool, I wondered if she was a sister of Elizabeth.
But Elizabeth was in Liverpool in 1871, daughter of Samuel Connally, and has no sister Martha
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KZGY-9TC
Another sister called Isabella is elsewhere in Liverpool in 1871, plus Mary Jane should be somewhere, we have seen her in the later marriage records. Or is she Janet (not too sure about that!)
Martha not really being married has changed things.
John
-
Martha born 1867 ish is on 1871/1881
Looks like mother Elisabeth and father John
mother may be MMN Hogg but I stand to be corrected
LM
-
Martha Whewell may have died just after the 1901 census, there is one registered June quarter, West Ham. Age 34
Possibly Elizabeth was born in 1861 in Scotland - Elizabeth Connolly in Kelton district.
Father Samuel Connelly died in 1877, age 47. Buried at Anfield Cemetery, 14 October, image here
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSJM-B9ZD-2?i=517&cat=397178
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John, you have been very busy with this thread, Tony must have a good few relations found for his tree
LM
-
Excuse me if I seem lost but where do these people fit in
I am Ok following Spencer/ Goodwin and Pedrick but now you have lost me
t
Tony
-
Hi
Alice Maud, aka Maud, we believe is the daughter of Robert Goodwin and Elizabeth Connelly who married in Kirkdale, Liverpool, in 1880 (she is Connally on that, daughter of Samuel, who was deceased)
So we have been having a quick look into their background, well Elizabeth's really, since there are some oddities and anomalies.
1881 (from keyboard)
Elizabeth Goodwin, 19, born Scotland - wife of Robert, living in Kirkdale
1891 (from LM)
Elizabeth Goodwin(s), 28, born Scotland - wife of Robert, living in Canning Town
1901
Elizabeth Goodwin, 34, widow, born Guernsey - sister of George Copp, in West Ham
1911
Elizabeth Bennett, 44, born Scotland - wife of John, in Canning Town
The first one, 1881, is most accurate for Elizabeth.
1901 is just plain wrong!
1911 it would have been nice to have had a town or city of birth in Scotland.
John
-
Tony, please don't forget to let us know about the certs you receive then we can see if we can help you from then on
Louisa Maud
-
Thank you
I will most definitely let you have the information.
I pray my mothers side of the family is less complicated
Tony
-
Well here is the latest update.
Alice Maud Spencer died 27th September 1919 at 8 Forest View Avenue. of Phthisis (TB)
Under Rank or Profession I think it states H/w 35 St Thomas Road, Canning Town,West Ham. Wife of John William Spencer a General Labourer (Army Pension)
The death was registered by John William Spencer, 3 Brook Street, Snodland, Kent. on 6th October 1919
That is all I have at present
-
Strange that her death was registered about 9 days after her death, is that unusual ?
Was there a separation prior to her illness and husband couldn't be located?
Louisa Maud
-
Not to my knowledge
Was 8 Forest View Avenue some sort of Sanatorium in 1919 ?
Every answer produces more questions it would seem.
-
Hi again, Whipps Cross hospital must be close, as that is very near Epping Forest?
Keyboard86
-
can only find up to No 7 Forest View Ave which appears to come under Whipps cross all dwellings
If only I could find my A to Z
..LM
-
thought I could find all addresses online to prove residents but so far, no joy
Whipps Cross doesn't not appear to be that address but it could have been a sanitarium
LM
-
Yes Whipps Cross Hospital is very close.
-
Looks like the death was very early on in October.
The sub district is North Leyton
So, out of area, but it could have been at the West Ham Infirmary (Whipps Cross)
Not early October, yes it does seem quite a delay in registering it.
And not actually at Whipps.
Forest View Avenue, 1953. The hospital just to the south. I passed by it all today!
https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=18&lat=51.5800&lon=0.0011&layers=173&b=1
-
Jon, you were spot on with death
LM
-
It's very good news that Tony has been able to confirm that death as the right one.
Still some unanswered questions though.
John
-
Yes, Tony would still like to find the son born circa 1917
LM
-
So would we ;D
-
Perhaps the mother was ill for sometime and the father, John William took the baby Willam to be looked after by grandmother Sarah in Kent along with siblings .
LM
-
I was thinking that too, LM. It must have been a tough time for John.
It is still seems quite a time before he registered Alice Maud's death. But it may be down to circumstances.
-
Yes I am still trying to find the birth of William Spencer Circa 1917
I am also trying to find Any reference to what 8 Forest View Avenue might have been in 1919.
Was Alice Maud Spencer in a Sanatorium or was it a private residence?.
Modern maps only show 1-7 Forest View Avenue.
Again a massive thanks to LM, Jon and Keyboard without whose help,encouragement and guidance I would not have reached this far.
-
It has been interesting Tony, but hopefully we might get to the bottom of Williams's birth
Electoral registers for all addresses at 1919/1920, none taken during the war, would be a good idea but I don't have access to them
I know sometimes hospital are not shown on death certs as hospitals or the like, my own grandfather died at an address in Harrow Road W10, not shown by hospital just the postal address but I did know where he died
Louisa Maud
-
LM you are absolutely right about certain institutions being known by their postal address, or some other similar device that was used.
The West Ham workhouse itself was later referred to on certificates as "Central Homes"
But - living locally - I do remember there being mention not so long ago of Whipps Cross Hospital celebrating its centenary. And this seems to have been in 2017
So - from an old Rootschat thread - an image of death cert in January 1917 at the West Ham Union Infimary
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=772459.0
And in November that year it was renamed Whipps Cross Hospital
http://wxhr.org.uk/2017/11/06/100-years-of-whipps-cross-hospital/
John
-
I am finally able to confirm the following
May father Robert Henry Spencer and my uncle William Spencer were indeed raised by their father and grandmother at Brook Street Snodland, followinng the death of their mother Alice Maud Spencer nee Goodwin on 27th September 1919 at Whipps Cross Hospital formerley West Ham Poor Law Union Infirmary..
It would appear that for a short time deaths were registered at non institutional addresses and in this case No 8 Forest View Avenue
-
I am not sure if this is the correct place to add this but if not would the Moderators please move it to the correct board.
I am now looking for detail for William Spencer marrying Freda May Shepherd in approx 1938/39
I am given to understand they resided in the wakefield area at the time.
They had a daughter Carol Ann Spencer who I believe was born in 1948
I believe though I am not certain that the marriage broke up around that time and Freda May Spencer took the daughter and moved to Glasgow.
Any information anyone may have would be most welcome
Thank you
-
Hi
Dec 1944 Surrey N.E. 2a 295
Shepherd, Freda M. - spouse Spencer
Spencer, William - spouse Shepherd
-
Info from ScotlandsPeople
A marriage in Scotland (RD Gorbals) in 1953 of Freda May Spencer/Shepherd to William Wells Watson.
Death in Scotland in 2008 of Freda May Watson, age 85. Mother's maiden name Sheard.
"Other surname" - Shepherd and Spencer produces results.
Death in Scotland in 1989 of a William Wells Watson, age 68. Mother's maiden name Copeland.
Registration district for those two deaths was Glasgow, Martha St
-
Birth reg
June 1922 Dewsbury 9b 897
Shepherd, Freda M.
mother's maiden surname Sheard
-
Glasgow electoral registers 1857-1962 are online
Entries in them for Freda perhaps. Picking one -
1957
Burgh of Glasgow - Shettleston Constituency - Polling District H
140 Pendeen Road
Watson, Freda
Watson, William W.
(are many others at 140)
-
WOW
What can I say Jon
That is simply amazing and so quick
Thank you so very very much
Tony
-
John, you little star, 10 out of 10, straight to the top of the class
Louisa Maud
-
Hi
Well, it was Tony who found the name of William's first wife. So pleased that the later info seems to confirm things. Another mystery solved!
Just the big one left, the birth of William!
John
-
John, hope to work on that in a few weeks but no promises
Louisa Maud
-
Baptisms indexed at Stratford St John of three children of John and Maud Spencer
Rosina Maud, John Thomas, Robert Henry
From one of ancestry's new Essex databases, Essex, England, Church of England Births and Baptisms, 1813-1918
Images available on SEAX (not free!)
-
Well done Jonw
Unfortunately I haven't a sub. still trying to get to the ERO,holiday, virus and running out of time, still on my to do list
Louisa Maud
-
Hi Louisa Maud
Hope you get there soon. Very sorry to hear about the virus.
I think those transcriptions are going to be very useful. I even have some hope now that my problem Smith family may not have entirely disappeared!
John
-
Hi Jon
Thank you for those.
It seems we are destined not to locate Williams birth.
We know he existed but it sure is not easy trying to find any details of his birth.
I really do appreciate all the effort that has been put into trying to find that elusive bit of information.
Tony
-
John, does that mean that if William isn't showing up he can't have been baptised in Essex?
Louisa Maud
-
Hi LM
They seem to have pretty much gone up to the end of 1918 with those transcriptions on ancestry. And, if I remember rightly, William was born in early 1917. So it doesn't look too promising. So far no birth certificate and no baptism!
John
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Hi again
I think it is a safe bet that William was baptised in Snodland Kent as that is where he was raised by his paternal grandmothe,r and there is no record in the Essex records
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I have wondered all along if William was baptised in Snodland, have you found out nearest church to grandparents Tony
Louisa Maud
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AJS
Did you resolve any of this from the 1921 census
Louisa Maud