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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: neilgen1 on Thursday 13 December 18 22:36 GMT (UK)
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I am unable to locate what happened to Frederick Augustus Lee and Elizabeth Jeffrey.
They were married in April 1886, St Peter's Church of England, Sydney. Both Full age.
He was a Grocer.
Respective parents were Frederick Lee and Eliza Finlay, and Henry Jeffrey and Mary Franklin.
Frederick Augustus was born in New Zealand where his parents had apparently taken up a land grant in mid-1860's before moving with family to Sydney.
Quite an amount known of Frederick Augustus siblings - Alfred (1858-1923), Emma Jane Meldrum (1866-1955), Annie Louisa (1868-1960) and German Thomas (1870-1942). All married NSW and raised families there.
There was a Frederick Augustus Lee and wife Elizabeth Ferguson who had several children in Western Australia. However they seem from a different Lee family who had been in WA for some time.
Frederick Lee and Eliza Finlay both died in Perth after being there for nearly 20 years.
I don't know why they went there.
Looked at BMD's in Australia and NZ, as well as newspapers; but nothing seems relevant.
Appreciate any new clues.
thanks,
Neil
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Do you have the deaths of Frederick Augustus’ folks.
Yes, the WA one isn’t him, as an obit says he was in WA all his life.
Jamjar
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What year was he born?
A NSW death:
6001/1903 LEE Frederick A 46 YRS KENMORE GOULBURN GOULBURN
Jamjar
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A NSW death:
15322/1957 LEE Elizabeth parents HENRY and MARY PORT MACQUARIE
Jamjar
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Thanks Jamar
Frederick Lee died 14 Oct 1905 Perth.
Death has no parents and aged 87. Headstone aged 81. Daughter Emma placed 1905 death notice in SMH as "in his 84th year".
Eliza Finlay died 1899 with parents Germin (was really Germain), Jane Bollard. Would have been informed by Frederick. His possibly done by someone who did not know for his details for certain.
Her parents correct as they are my 3x from Donard, Wicklow.
Also I have numerous good quality DNA matches to them, including one from Annie Louisa.
Death of German Thomas has father as Thomas. So may be errors in NSW death records.
Seems too many to purchase on a guess.
Neil
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Frederick LEE who died in Oct 1905 supposedly had a daughter named Mrs M SHEA.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/page/5705660
Rhonda
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29 April 1886
St Peters, C of E rites
Frederick Augustus LEE, bachelor, born New Zealand, a grocer, full age, residing Sydney, father as Frederick LEE, Master Grocer, mother as Eliza FINLAY
And
Elizabeth JEFFREY, spinster, born Sydney, full age, residing Ultimo, father as Henry JEFFREY, Traffic Manager, and Mary FRANKLIN
Witnesses James Robert JACKSON and William BENTLEY
All four signed, but Elizabeth’s signature has JEFFERY as spelling. Rev’d has it as JEFFREY twice.
I have not found NZ birth for Frederick Augustus Lee. I have not found NSW birth/baptism for Elizabeth.
JM
YES, dont go purchasing bdm just yet... :)
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Mention of a Frederick Augustus LEE in Sydney in 1885
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article70986359
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Rhonda
Correct.
Emma Jane married Michael Shea in Jan 1888, Sydney.
Neil
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NSW Electoral Roll 1878 WEST SYDNEY (includes Ultimo )
Henry JEFFREY, 437 Harris St,
Oliver JEFFREY, 437 Harris St,
William H JEFFREY, 437 Harris St
JM
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So, was Emma, MELDRUM or MUTTON (married to Oswald)?
As the notice in SMH has her as OSWALD.
Jamjar
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What year was he born?
A NSW death:
6001/1903 LEE Frederick A 46 YRS KENMORE GOULBURN GOULBURN
Jamjar
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article98769303
Frederick Arthur LEE.
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Odd, Annie Louisa married on George Oswald Mutton:
470/1887 MUTTON George O L to LEE Annie L SYDNEY
4th column: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article108791618
Jamjar
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It was Annie Louisa Lee (1868-1960) who married George Oswald Lincoln Mutton (1865-1954) at St Batholomew's, Pyrmont in Mar 1887.
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Yes, but you said it was Emma in the notice you mentioned. :-\
So, it was Annie, 1st column: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article14716118
Jamjar
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Apologies, it was Annie.
Frederick Lee was a Colour-Sergeant and wounded in the battle of Alma in 1854 (possibly with 19th Foot - The Green Howards)
Probably the source of use of Alma in some family names.
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I’m confuddled :(
In your original post you have Emma Jane as Meldrum. Is Meldrum a second middle name as opposed to a married name?
Her death: 1547/1955 SHEA Emma Jane parents FREDERICK and ELIZABETH CHATSWOOD
Think I need breakfast to get those little grey cells firing. ;D
Jamjar
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Mention of a Frederick Augustus LEE in Auckland, NZ in 1899
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01n5s/
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I took info from NSW 1934 Electoral Roll for Dorrigo where seems listed as -
Shea, Emma Jane Meldrum, - Hernani, Home Duties
Neil
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Thanks Cando
That NZ Papers Past seems very promising!
Expect to be in NZ somewhere.
As I recall, later BMD's there have less information.
Neil
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Sister to Elizabeth JEFFREY......might lead to Elizabeth later in life??
Ancestry Sydney Parishes
Oct 1st 1890
MAIS Albert, adult, garderner, b. Adelaide, res. Fairfield
Parents: MAIS Henry, cemetery superviser.....JACKSON Jane
JEFFREY Isabella, adult, b. NSW, res. Ultimo
Parents: JEFFERY Henry, manager.......FRANKLIN Mary Good*** smith
witnesses H HUGHES, Eliza ELLIOTT
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....
Frederick Lee was a Colour-Sergeant and wounded in the battle of Alma in 1854 (possibly with 19th Foot - The Green Howards)
Probably the source of use of Alma in some family names.
Some questions :
;) Have you found him migrating to NZ ...
;) Have you found Frederick Augustus coming from NZ to NSW - when and where to :)
;) Do you know if the witnesses to the April 1886 marriage were family ... if so, LEE or JEFFREY
JM
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Sands 1884 Sydney Directory
Henry JEFFERY 761 Harris St (YES, that's the spelling in that edition of Sands)
Fred LEE, grocer, 241 Castlereagh St
http://cdn.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/learn/history/archives/sands/1880-1889/1884-part6.pdf
Assessment Books: https://www.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/learn/search-our-collections/house-and-building-histories/assessment-books
Sands : https://www.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/learn/search-our-collections/sands-directory
JM
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Thanks Cando
That NZ Papers Past seems very promising!
Expect to be in NZ somewhere.
As I recall, later BMD's there have less information.
Neil
I have always purchased a print out not a certificate.
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Thanks majam
I do have some other information but I am not really wanting to get into too many more details.
Have done some work previously in immigration and NZ BMD's. Most of their children seem not recorded in NZ civil.
Really is a matter of completeness to find all the children of Frederick Lee and Eliza Finlay.
So far as I can see no one had identified Frederick Augustus and Emma Jane as their children.
Mainly to help with my DNA matches.
Have some matches from other Finlay branches who went to NZ. But seems to be a couple who do not fit with those I know about.
Might be other children not yet identified?
Neil
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Have you eliminated the Frederick LEE listed at the NSW Archives online index for the Register of cases of bubonic plague. He was noted there as aged 44, and of Balmain.
https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/keyname
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/9904772 6 May 1905 The Argus.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/5046018 8 May 1905
JM
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Thanks majm
I had seen his death, and as Frederick A Lee seemed the best candidate.
At 46 means born around 1859 - within probable age range.
Been put off getting it because possibly no parental information.
However, may be other recognisable names on it.
Think I will do a little more in NZ first.
May be more of Frederick Augustus' family there I need.
Neil
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The chap in 1905 at Balmain was 44, and died at the Coast hospital... the Sands Directories continue to have someone of that name at the address for several years ... I have NOT found an index entry for that May 1905 death at the NSW BDM. What reference no. Did you spot to suggest he was recorded as aged 46...
JM
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Might be other children not yet identified?
Neil
Do you have the 1905 WA Death certificate?
Rhonda
ADDED:
WA d.c's apparently have children named from 1896. Depends on what the informant knows?
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majm
Not sure about that Frederick in 1905.
Many Frederick deaths from 1900 to say 1960, but few readily fit.
In my reply I was referring to 1903 death of Frederick A Lee, aged 46 at Kenmore, Goulburn 6001/1903. So math's would be born abt 1857; not 1859.
Also 2 Frederick W's deaths in 1901, and 1903.
In Australian Dictionary of Biography entry on Alfred Lee, it has that his father Frederick Norman Lee (unconvinced for Norman) went to NZ in 1867 with wife and 3 children to take up a land grant.
Frederick Augustus, Full age, born NZ (so 21 or more) when married Elizabeth Jeffery in 1886.
Born abt 1865 or earlier.
So born NZ is seems incorrect. Probably one of the 3 children who went to NZ - Alfred was one.
Not found any births so far for them in Ireland.
May be was in County Wicklow. No evidence yet and records pre-1860's are problematic - as many will know.
Not followed up much on Frederick Lee's side, who I think originally might have been from there too. Maybe Meldrum name I referred to earlier is a clue for anyone wanting to go back into Lee side. Not my main interest.
Just part of quite a few inconsistencies I have with the family.
Neil
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Thank Rhonda
The information in the WA index for Frederick does not give me much confidence in how much there might be. Will consider getting it.
Neil
Actually, Eliza's Death might be more a worthwhile outlay because it seems to me Frederick was the informant, so he would have added his children if that was required.
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29 April 1886
St Peters, C of E rites
Frederick Augustus LEE, bachelor, born New Zealand, a grocer, full age, residing Sydney, father as Frederick LEE, Master Grocer, mother as Eliza FINLAY
And
Elizabeth JEFFREY, spinster, born Sydney, full age, residing Ultimo, father as Henry JEFFREY, Traffic Manager, and Mary FRANKLIN
Witnesses James Robert JACKSON and William BENTLEY
All four signed, but Elizabeth’s signature has JEFFERY as spelling. Rev’d has it as JEFFREY twice. ...
There was NO requirement for the clergy to note if any of the parents were known to be deceased. (became a requirement in around 1899) This clergyman ought to have recorded the then age, but recorded it as 'full age' ... so yes, at least 21 years of age, but either the bride or the groom may have been middle aged, or elderly ... - full age can indicate they were past child bearing age ...
So, Frederick Augustus informed the clergyman that his father's occupation was Master Grocer, and there's NO mention of any military service on that parish register. Many military families married at St Mathias, C of E ... as it was (and still is) close to Victoria Barracks.
Any thoughts as to where Frederick Augustus' father's Grocery business was conducted circa 1886 ...
JM
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majm
I have not followed up on Frederick's grocery business.
I suspect Frederick ceased his Military Service after wounding in Alma, Crimea in 1854.
Listed in Chelsea Pensioner's twice in 1855. 19th Foot. One a discharge (from Hospital?)
Aged 28 born Dunnamore, Strasford (Stratford?), Wicklow.
Age does not match any other dates.
Re-looked at some Irish records.
Emma Jane born 15 Dec 1862. Baptised 23 Jan 1863, St. Peter's, Dublin.
Parents Frederick Lee and Eliza Lee, 15 Aungier St.
Not seen the other 2 children nor marriage.
Neil
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In my reply I was referring to 1903 death of Frederick A Lee, aged 46 at Kenmore, Goulburn 6001/1903. So math's would be born abt 1857; not 1859.
I previously posted that this person was Frederick Arthur LEE.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article98769303
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http://adb.anu.edu.au/biography/lee-alfred-7143
This Alfred is noted as the eldest son, and was born 1858, Ireland, with parents as Frederick Norman LEE and Eliza FINLAY. The family moved to NZ in 1867, Mr & Mrs Lee and their 3 children. Alfred came to across Sydney in 1874. No mention of any of his siblings or parents coming to NSW... :-\ :-\
I am quite sure that, while it is possible that Frederick Augustus LEE was a younger brother to Alfred, I am also sure that it is also quite possible that they were not related at all. There were many people in Sydney in the 1870s and 1880s with the surname LEE.
If Alfred attended Grammar Schools in NZ as per that biography, then to me, it is likely his younger brother would have had a similar education, so perhaps there's a clue to follow up ...
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/246070828 Telegraph 11 Aug 1923
JM
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In my reply I was referring to 1903 death of Frederick A Lee, aged 46 at Kenmore, Goulburn 6001/1903. So math's would be born abt 1857; not 1859.
I previously posted that this person was Frederick Arthur LEE.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article98769303
Supporting Cando's post :)
https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/collections-and-research/guides-and-indexes/intestates/indexes That Frederick LEE was a photographer, of Wyalong. :)
JM
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Thanks Cando
Can eliminate 1903 Frederick.
I think best for me to first get Eliza Lee's death from WA. Hopefully with their children listed.
Then see where that might lead.
Not relevant to this topic, but to see a little more on Alfred and brother German Thomas, see WDYTYA? for Jack Thompson.
rgds
Neil
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:) Jack Thompson ... :) :)
As an aside ... David Scott MITCHELL and one of my ancestors grew up together.
JM