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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Carl42 on Thursday 03 January 19 10:39 GMT (UK)
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Hi All - I know from the Sessions Books at the LMA that William WHITE held the license at the Swan at Stockwell from 1792 until 1804. Possibly earlier and possibly later, but those records are not available to view. He possibly had a son John born around 1773 and another son Thomas born around 1783. That is all I know. I have searched 'Ancestry' for church records - William's marriage, son's baptisms, etc. without success. Any ideas welcomed.
Thanks in advance, Carl :)
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There were about 4 of each John & Thomas on A….y around the dates you mention, sadly I was unable to find common parents.
I’m not sure if the following will help but it’s the best I can come up with except for Thomas.
William of the parish below married Priscilla Parker 23 Apr 1772 St Mary, Whitechapel
Priscilla was buried at St Michael 10 Sep 1775
John White Baptism 11 Nov 1773 St Michael, Crooked Lane, City of London. William & Priscilla
William White otp widower married Elizabeth Smedley 13 Feb 1780 St Michael Crooked Lane
Children baptised St Michael Crooked Lane
Elizabeth 7 Dec 1780, Abraham 13 May 1781, William 24 Feb 1782, James 4 Sep 1783
Then the following baptisms at St Mary at Lambeth
Abraham 13 May 1781 the same date as above.
Elizabeth 25 Dec 1782, Ann 28 Mar 1784, Charlotte 25 Dec 1785, Sarah 2 Nov 1788
Colin
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Hello Colin, many thanks for your assistance.
I have come across the WHITE's of Crooked Lane before whilst searching through wills and whilst they didn't look promising then I will check them out again. For the record there were two brothers Robert and William, both described as millmakers. Robert's will of 1792 left everything to brother William. William's will of 1798 left everything to his two sons William and James. William snr. stated in his will that he had tenements in Cold Harbour Lane, Camberwell and also a factory in St George, Southwark. Of course Camberwell and Southwark are not too far away from Stockwell, but then again White's are ten a penny.
The Swan Inn was and still is, in the centre of Stockwell. Which church is relevant to that parish in latter half of the 18c and how can I tell if all the church records have been transcribed and are on Ancestry?
Thanks again for you help. Carl
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St Mary at Lambeth was founded before 1086. It closed before 1972. It was less than 2 miles from the Swan.
As far as I can see on GENUKI there were only 2 Anglican Churches in Stockwell.
St Andrew, Landor Road, Stockwell was founded in 1767. (Not on A....ry
St Michael, Stockwell was founded in 1841.
By the way you mentioned the name Thomas on your original post, how sure are you of that name?
Colin
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Thanks Colin. Two miles is perhaps a long way, especially for someone who presumably worked a 7 day week. So if he attended anywhere I would conclude that it had to be St Andrews.
Thomas was my 4xg grandfather. In his will of 1850 he refers to his wife as Susannah (no marriage record found). Their first son William Samuel White was born in 1802 (no baptismal record found) but he was baptised as an adult in 1823 at St Mary's, Newington. If the age given on her grave is correct then Susannah was 12 or 13 when WSW was born, which might account for why no marriage or baptismal record has been found. In contrast Thomas's brother John who became an innkeeper in Hampton (Court) and later Windsor left a marriage record (Charlotte Ansell at St Mary's, Lambeth) and 5 children's baptismal records around Hampton.
Thanks again, Carl
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The records at St Andrews only cover the period from 1788 – 1947 the year the youngest daughter if it was them was born.
I note that the Robert you mention was buried at St Michael, Crooked Lane in 1792
Colin
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Hello Colin. Thanks again, I could have spent months looking into this and getting nowhere and so your help has been invaluable. I conclude that I am unlikely to ever be able to access the church records for St Andrews between 1750 ish and 1788 and so I will have to draw a line on church records here.
Next steps - Some time ago I scanned through over 1000 WHITE wills about this period. That was before I had the Christian name of William and the connection with Stockwell, and so as a next step I will go over these again. I will also look more closely at the mill-makers of Crooked Lane - they are not the innkeepers that I am looking for, but might be cousins. Finally I will ask the LMA if they can think of any other records that might be useful to me. I am not optimistic, but as they say 'its (sometimes) darkest before dawn'.
Thanks again, Carl
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H Carl
I presume the burial below provided the year of birth?
Thomas White Burial 67 (1783) 29 Jul 1850 Norwood Cemetery, Norwood Road, Lambeth,
Abode Newington Causeway
Sadly no 1841 census that I can find.
A couple of entries from The London Directory.
William White
1790 & 1795
17, Crooked Lane, Cannon Street
London, England
Mill maker
William White
1802 – only entry
Stockwell
London, England
Swan tavern
Good luck Colin
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Thanks again Colin. Thomas and Susanna can be found in the 1841 by searching - Thomas White, b. abt 1786, Innkeeper, St Mary Newington.
In the 1851 census Thomas has of course passed on whilst widow Susanna is listed at same address as a 46 year old tavern keeper b. Stockwell. Amongst the staff is 39 year old niece Maria White who led me to Thomas's brother John in Windsor. I got lucky there.
Cheers Carl
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The reason I could not find them was I assumed he was born in Surrey but the 1841
stated not born in County for either of them. That led me to this.
Thomas White of the parish of St Mary Newington, Bachelor
Married Susannah Vanderkiste of this parish, Spinster
Witnesses John White & Fras Brothers all 4 signed
11 May 1814
St Mary Abbots Church, Kensington, Kensington and Chelsea, England
Colin
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But she was!
Susannah Vanderkiste
Baptism
27 Dec 1788
St Mary at Lambeth, Lambeth, Surrey
Joseph Stone, Vanderkiste & Ann
Colin
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Colin, you are amazing and I owe you big time! I have searched high and low to find Susannah's surname. Her grave in Kensall Green states that she was born on 2 Dec 1789, but as we know dates can be so unreliable. After she left the Artichoke in the mid 1850's she went to live in Kensington with her younger son Frederick Thomas White who was by then a well renowned barrister. FTW is the only child mentioned in Thomas's 1850 will - their eldest son WSW died in squalor in 1829 whilst making sextant frames in Anchor and Hope Alley, St George's in the East, close by Wapping Old Stairs. WSW and his wife Martha died of TB (Martha in 1841) and they left behind 3 orphaned children, William, Eliza and my 2xg grandfather James Buckle White, born in 1837. Susanna reported WSW's death and as far as I can establish she rescued her three orphaned grandchildren, arranged apprenticeships as tailors and financed their eventual move up to Lancashire. I am quite certain that without her assistance I would not be writing to you today.
Youngest son FTW was born around 1815 which fits well with their marriage date of 1814. I do not have a baptism for FTW, I have estimated his birth from ages given by him in censuses. The wife of the eldest son of FTW was Constance Mildred Ley, eldest child of John Henry and Henrietta Ley of Devon who was wig-bearing clerk in the House of Commons. My great grandfather was John Henry Buckle White and I suspect that he was named in honour of John Henry Ley who may have played a part in the education of the three orphans. Many children were named 'Annie' which I believe to have been the commonly used name of Susanna. Perhaps tellingly we never had another child in our family line called Thomas. Apparently the name Annie was revered whilst Thomas was not.
Your revelation opens many new avenues of research and I cannot thank you enough.
Eternally grateful, Carl
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Hi Colin - Of course, having slept on it, we cannot be sure that Susannah Vanderkiste was my 4xg grandmother. There may have been two Susannahs' one the mother of WSW and the other the mother of FTW. We also have to consider the possibility that the Thomas and Susannah that WSW recorded as being his parents at his adult baptism in 1823 was only what he had been led to believe. However there is little doubt that Susannah Vanderkiste was the person who reported WSW's death and also the same person who supported the 3 orphans right up until her death in 1868.
Best Regards, Carl
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Hi Carl
Susannah was born 2 Dec 1788 according to the baptism record, which was in good condition.
So she would be 13 years 7 months when WSW was born on 19 July 1802, by the way the baptism form is a bit of a mess, only the date 26 Feb 1823, his name William Samuel son of Thomas & Susanna White, is clear. The abode column has St. Georges the next 4 or 5 lines crossed out, as was father’s occupation of Mathematical Instrument Maker.
It may not be connected but!
Susannah White Burial 14 Sep 1802 St Mary, Newington, Southwark, Surrey
The record simply states a Woman, others stated Man or Child.
I found John and 4 out of 5 children but nothing after 1821. Did You?
John White 24 May 1802 St Mary, Lambeth Charlotte
Elizabeth Ansell a witness
Charlotte 1805, Maria 1808, Lydia 1810 plus the key one, this notes John as a Victualler.
William White 28 Jan 1821 Hampton St Mary Richmond upon Thames John,Charlotte
Colin
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Hi Colin - Yes, the baptism entry is a bit of a mess. I checked about 500 other entries of Cyril Onslow and the only corrections I found elsewhere were a couple of re-spelling of surnames, so he was having a 'bad hair' day when he recorded WSW's adult baptism. I agree with the birth and baptism date that you have. The addresses are 'Beckford Row, Walworth' (birthplace?), 'St John's Wapping' (where WSW served his apprenticeship?). and 'St George's in the East' (where WSW was living at the time? IE Anchor and Hope Alley aka Little Broad Street) - the extension of Broad Street. Broad Street had housing on the east side and the high wall of the new London Dock on the west side. Anchor and Hope Alley was a short alleyway that gave access to the quay side of the Thames. A good location to sell sextants with fresh customers arriving daily, but probably the most unhealthy place in London.
As you say the entry for the death of a Susannah White is hard to explain - should we attach significance to this being a couple of months after WSW's birth?
The fifth child of John and Charlotte was George born 17 Apr 1815 and baptised on 14 May 1815. Of the five children Maria was the only one who lived her life away from Hampton/Windsor. I don't think that George survived through to adulthood. John, Charlotte and children appear to have left Hampton Court just about the time that Royalty moved to Brighton. In the 1881 census William stated that he was born in 'Hampton Court Palace' - not sure about that. As I said before Maria married ex bar man Frederick Hayward and they took over the Artichoke after Susannah moved to Kensington. Frederick appears to have been a 'steady Eddie' whilst Maria was the opposite - she was aged 39 in 1851 and the same age in 1861 - I wish! After Frederick and Maria retired they went to live out their lives out in Windsor.
Regardless of whether WSW's Susannah was the same as FTW's Susannah Vandekiste, it was the latter who was there for WSW when he was dying (she rented a house nearby). It was she who rescued the orphans from St George's Workhouse and raised them as if they were her own. She may not be my blood relative but she has my deepest respect.
Cheers Carl
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The Susanna burial was probably not connected a large number of Susanna/h’s married a White. Eg.
Susanna Jeffereys 18 May 1788 St Mary, Newington John White
I found a tree on A….y which gives a different life for John White baptised 1773 Saint Michael Crooked Lane, parents William White & Priscilla. If they are correct it’s not your John.
So with no clear matching parents for John & Thomas in London area either the records did not survive or they were born elsewhere.
What a pity there is no 1841 census for John.
Best wishes Colin
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I want to thank you again Colin, I've been stuck in a rut for the last 3 years and you have provided me with new information and new avenues to explore.
Thanks for your opinion regarding regarding Susanna Jeffreys and Crooked Lane. Also for your opinion on births of John and Thomas - It is indeed a pity that John did not live to 1841, but also a pity that Thomas did not survive until 1851. Susanna states that she was born in Stockwell and that is where we began this discussion attempting to find a link between William who ran the Swan in Stockwell and Thomas, his possible son who ran the Artichoke in Newington. Both John and Thomas had sons called William which may be taken as a clue - When you are researching a common name in a built up area I find that I have no option but to clutch at straws such as these.
I have found a tree on A.....y which majors on the Vanderkiste line. She shows no information on the life of Susannah other than born 1788. Her father was an MD and he may have lived in London where his daughter was married which would be interesting. Perhaps if someone in her line has taken a genes test then this may prove/disprove a blood relationship with Susanna Vanderkiste.
I thought that I owe you some background information that you might find interesting.
There has been an Artichoke tavern on Newington Causeway since at least 1687 long before its now famous neighbour the Elephant and Castle. Ominously the last record that I can find for the Artichoke is in 1944. It is however recorded as 'Artichoak Inn' on John Rocques map of 1746/7 and also shown in elevation on Taliss's street view of 1838 where 'T WHITE can be clearly seen in large letters above the entrance (both works are in the LMA).
I think it likely that WSW was drawn to octant making by Nelson's victory in 1805. It proved to be a poor choice since shortly after his apprenticeship manufacturing materials changed from ebony and ivory to that of materials more likely to survive life at sea, mainly brass. Brass manufacture required expensive machine tools which entailed sextants to be manufactured in larger scale factory conditions as opposed to the cottage industry of ebony and ivory. It is no wonder that WSW never made it out of poverty.
The family lines of John (Windsor) and FTW (Kensington) have long since become extinct. However James Buckle White and his wife Mary Westbrook went on to produce 14 children which ensured the survival of many descendants still alive today. I attribute the name unusual Christian name of Buckle to a family living nearby headed by lighterman James Buckle. Perhaps this family in some way saved WSW's youngest son. It is curious to think that JBW dodged many bullets and survived to be the most productive in terms of heirs.
Thanks again, best regards Carl