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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: victorialearmonth on Thursday 03 January 19 12:13 GMT (UK)
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Happy New Year!
I 'm hoping someone could help. I am researching my 3x Great Grandmother Esther McLean. Some one on this forum helped me find this marriage certificate. I know the information about Esther already but no nothing of her Husband.
Please could someone help by transcribing his parents names, maiden name and professio n.
Many thanks in advance
copyright image removed
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Any chance of a better quality image? It distorts badly when I enlarge it.
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I was just about to ask the same. :)
When zooming in it just pixelates and blurs.
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Hi both! I’m struggling! It keeps telling me the attachment is too large!
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Try cropping the certificate to just show the parts you need deciphering
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Fingers crossed!
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Bartholemy? Hoolahan
occupation: Flesher?
deceased
Mothers name: Julia? Dresehil? :-\ (not sure that is a right)
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I would agree with Ruskie and mother's name Julia.
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This is the marriage I think:
HOOLAHAN Timothy - MCLEAN Esther 1863 691/ 5 Lasswade
I can’t see a birth for a Timothy, even using ‘fuzzy’ for surname.
Could he have been born in Ireland?
I can’t see any of the mentioned Hoolahan’s (or variations of) before or after marriage, on the Scots censuses. :-\
Jamjar
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Yes that’s it Jamjar!
Honestly Esther has been a right toil! When I found this marriage certificate I thought my luck had come in!!
That’ll teach me for celebrating early!! 😂
Esther was born in Ireland but other brothers and sisters born in Peebles.
Could a clue be in Timothys occupation? Private in 25th Regiment stationer at Edinburgh Castle - could he be Irish and in that regiment?
No offence to the Irish but I hope he isn’t! I’m having a hard time enough with the McLeans in Ireland - I don’t need any more 😂😂😂
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The Irish were great suppliers of soldiers to the Army. The Irish were also great suppliers of labour to Scottish industry. So if they were not locally recruited (in Ireland) then the chidlren of the Irish who came to work in Scotland could also have joined in Scotland. Have you been able to track Timothy's Army records?
When/where did they (Esther & Timothy) die and what details were on their certificates.
Not to put you off but Hoolahan is what I would class as an Irish name and it can be spelled in many ways depending usually on what someone heard.
Houlihan
hooligan
Hoolagan
hallihan
halligan
Halliighan
Hoolighan
Even
Woolihan
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@shan
The Irish were great suppliers of soldiers to the Army. The Irish were also great suppliers of labour to Scottish industry. So if they were not locally recruited (in Ireland) then the chidlren of the Irish who came to work in Scotland could also have joined in Scotland. Have you been able to track Timothy's Army records?
When/where did they (Esther & Timothy) die and what details were on their certificates.
Not to put you off but Hoolahan is what I would class as an Irish name and it can be spelled in many ways depending usually on what someone heard.
Houlihan
hooligan
Hoolagan
hallihan
halligan
Halliighan
Hoolighan
Even
Woolihan
Thank you for your reply!
I have no idea about birth or death of Esther (other than info on census) and absolutely none on Timothy!
The Hoolahan thing just adds to my list of woes. I nearly gave up trying with Esther - now Timothy is making me feel the same!
:(
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There is the possibility that the marriage did not survive, if the following is the same Tim as yours. I found the following newspaper snippet:
Caledonian Mercury 08 August 1863
SHERIFF CRIMINAL COURT - Friday
(Before Sheriff Arkley.)
Timothy Hoolihan, a private in the 25th Re-
giment pleaded guilty to using indecent liberties
with a young girl on the public road near Milton
Cottages on the 11th ultimo; and was sentenced
to six months' imprisonment.
I doubt Esther could have afforded a divorce, so if she met a new man, she may have just assumed his surname as if they were married, as she couldn't legally remarry until Tim died.
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There is the possibility that the marriage did not survive, if the following is the same Tim as yours. I found the following newspaper snippet:
Caledonian Mercury 08 August 1863
SHERIFF CRIMINAL COURT - Friday
(Before Sheriff Arkley.)
Timothy Hoolihan, a private in the 25th Re-
giment pleaded guilty to using indecent liberties
with a young girl on the public road near Milton
Cottages on the 11th ultimo; and was sentenced
to six months' imprisonment.
I doubt Esther could have afforded a divorce, so if she met a new man, she may have just assumed his surname as if they were married, as she couldn't legally remarry until Tim died.
Wow!! That’s amazing! It would tie in with the timescales!
Poor Esther - she certainly could pick them!
I wonder if you could solve another mystery? On Scottish Indexes in the 1861 census Esther McLean is 23 and her son William is noted as illegitimate- but under ‘other name’ it states Hains.
Could Hains be Williams father?
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On Scottish Indexes in the 1861 census Esther McLean is 23 and her son William is noted as illegitimate- but under ‘other name’ it states Hains.
Could Hains be Williams father?
I just took a look at the 1861, and it just says grandson for William.... I don't see "other name" or Hains anywhere on the census...?
Do you have a marriage or death certificate for William? If the name of his father was known, it is possible it would be listed on them.
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Hopefully this works!
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Not sure where the extract is from and you must have other information to show that William McLean is the son of Esther as from the extract that has been put up he could easily be the son of any of the McLean siblings - the boys? Though more usual for the daughter to have her child with her than for a male to but not unknown. Even this day I know of a child who is being brought up by the father and his parents.
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Just going back to the marriage certificate could the maiden surname of Julia Hoolihan be Drischil or as is more usual in Ireland Driscoll or O'Driscoll. There are large numbers in Co Kerry & Cork.
I will do some more looking around.....though these are the parents of Timothy Hoolihan and is he an ancestor or a husband of your Ancestor Esther McLean/Hoolihan/Hains?
In the census extract with William Mclean just confirming that he was born before Esther and Timothy married. Is William your ancestor?
Have you found the McLeans/McCormacks in Ireland?
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I have no idea of what that extract is either. The names are abbreviated just as they are on the 1861 census, so it looks to me that someone has taken the names from the index, then added in the "Other Name" column, as it certainly doesn't appear on the actual census. If that is the case, perhaps they found the name Hains on some other document, such as William's marriage certificate.
The full family:
John McLean Head Married age 56 General Labourer born Ireland
Rachel McLean Wife Married age 55 no occupation born Ireland
Esther McLean Daur Unmarried age 23 no occupation born Ireland
Wm. McLean Son Unmarried age 14 Woollen weaver born Ireland
Archd McLean son unmarried age 12 scholar born Peeblessh Peebles
Robert McLean son unmarried age 6 scholar born Peeblessh Peebles
Alexr McLean son unmarried age 4 scholar born Peeblessh Peebles
William McLean grandson unmarried age 1 - born Peeblessh Peebles
Snippet from the actual census page:
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Some members of this family are in Penicuik Midlothian in census 1871-1891 (Alexander) and Archibald.
It may be a good idea to get out the 1841 & 1851 mentions in the Irish census for those dates. Although these two census were subsequently lost, extracts from them were made when Irish born Scottish resident citizens who might be eligible for the Old Age Pension completed a form. This was then sent it to Ireland where the details were checked to see if they appeared in the census. In effect a birth certictae substitute.
A Rachel Mccormack submitted details to be checked and this is the extract from Family Search
Rachel Mccormack
Ireland Census Search Forms, 1841 and 1851
Name Rachel Mccormack
Event Type Census
Event Date 1841
Townland Straid
Parish Ahoghill
Barony Toome Upper
County Antrim
Event Place Ahoghill, Antrim, Ireland
Relationship to Head of Household Applicant
I think the actual forms are on either Ancestry or Find my past. If this the mother of Esther McLean then it will give an idea of where in Ireland the mother's family came from.
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The Census search forms are free to view on National Archives Ireland
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01n7w/
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Thank you all for your replies!
William features twice in the 1861 census. He is also a lodger staying with his Aunt Paterson’s. He is listed as William Bain and Rachel McLain and Robert are there also. Newlands, Peebles.
On Williams birth certificate it has just Esther and states his is illegitimate. On his death certificate he puts Esther McLean & James McLean - obviously fictitious to save embarrassment.
I’m not sure where in Ireland Esther was born, the only knowledge I have of her parents come from her brother Alexander McLeans birth certificate. He was born in 1855 in Peebles.
JohnMcLean abt 1809 • Donoughmore, County Down who married Rachel McCormick abt 1811 • Lisadian Townland, Loughgilly Parish, County Armagh.
As I understand it, although it’s two different counties, they are both close to each other as the crow flys.
William is my GGGrandfather.
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As you are descended from William Hains/Mclean do you still want any further info about the marriage certificate Mclean/Hoolihan?
If not and you want further searching for either of his McLean/McCormack grandparents perhaps make a new thread on one of the Irish County Boards on Rootschat.
As far as who the father may be have you searched for a James Mclean just in case it is correct.
Have you had your DNA done? You might find more information about William's father/family this way if someone in his father's family has had theirs done?
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As you are descended from William Hains/Mclean do you still want any further info about the marriage certificate Mclean/Hoolihan?
If not and you want further searching for either of his McLean/McCormack grandparents perhaps make a new thread on one of the Irish County Boards on Rootschat.
As far as who the father may be have you searched for a James Mclean just in case it is correct.
Have you had your DNA done? You might find more information about William's father/family this way if someone in his father's family has had theirs done?
Thank you again for your reply! You’ve been really helpful, I’m still a novice at this.
Searching the Hoolahans was really a distraction because I was so stuck on Esther. I’d pretty much given up going back to McCormack & McLean as I’ve struggled with finding Irish records - but I will add another post on here in the Irish section.
I’m going to email the Scottish Indexes website and ask them about the connection between Esther, William & the Hain surname. Although I guess it’s just due to the two separate entries on the 1861 census - they could possibly have more information. It’s a whole line that is missing in my tree!
Funnily enough my DNA test has just dropped through the letterbox this morning! Here’s hoping it helps me out abit!
Many thanks again!
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I took a look at the Scottish Index site, and they have a disclaimer about anything written in italics (note that "Hains" was written as "Hains") as follows :
N.B. Notes which appear in italics above do not appear in the original records and are supplied from our own research. Alternative surnames (also in italics) have been either inferred as a possibility from the context of the record itself or supplied from other research. The idea behind this is to make it easier to find individuals who may have had more than one surname, but should not to be taken as evidence that the alternative surname shown ever applied to that person.
Hopefully they have kept notes of where they got the Hains!
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I took a look at the Scottish Index site, and they have a disclaimer about anything written in italics (note that "Hains" was written as "Hains") as follows :
N.B. Notes which appear in italics above do not appear in the original records and are supplied from our own research. Alternative surnames (also in italics) have been either inferred as a possibility from the context of the record itself or supplied from other research. The idea behind this is to make it easier to find individuals who may have had more than one surname, but should not to be taken as evidence that the alternative surname shown ever applied to that person.
Hopefully they have kept notes of where they got the Hains!
Wow BBart! Thank you for that! Fingers crossed they get back to me soon.