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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Perthshire => Topic started by: Cockneyrebel on Thursday 17 January 19 15:32 GMT (UK)
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The above appears on the 1881 Scottish census as a grand daughter of George Robertson and Margaret nee Henderson at Kirkstyle Cottage, Kinfauns; however I can't find a record of her birth or who her parents were?
George and Margaret had 11 children, 6 of whom were daughters and none married a Lawson as far as I can see. Isabella b 1849 and passed away 1929 as a spinster, Agnes Davidson b 1852 could've been her mother, Helen b 1858, Margaret b 1862 and Catherine M b 1864 a bit too young. Balthea had 2 illegitimate children before her marriage to Alexander Lawso McKay in 1885 and had 3 children with him but only 1 legitimate.
So I wonder if you can find any records to find out about the subject?
Cr
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Margaret Haldane Henderson Robertson, born Kinfauns, 28 March 1870, mother Bathea Robertson, no father named? The original image is available to view at Scotland's People, reference Kinfauns 1970/366/4.
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Interesting that Margaret has the middle name Lawson - same as Balthia's husband Alexander Lawson McKay -Presume the pedigree resource file is yours - which shows George 18 February 1873 - Agnes 25 March 1880 (shows on the 1881 census as Agnes M Kay) and Robina Wilson 21 February 1887
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/2:2:32JL-SNQ
George Robertson - Birth Date: 18 Feb 1873 Kinfauns,Perth,Scotland
Mother Bathea Robertson.
Death of Alexander - Alexander Lawso McKay - 70 years - 1906 400/ 2 Abdie
Sandra
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Hi ,
Kinfauns parish Churchyard,
Agnes Davidson Robertson (b) 1867..(d) 1940
also her husband William Cameron (b) 1867,(d) 1950
gravestone on find a grave for Kinfauns
1841 Cencus ......Walnut Grove, Kinfauns
Robert Robertson (50).....labourer.
Bethea Robertson (50)
George Robertson (20) tailor
Hellen Patten (25)
Bettesy Mitchell (35)
Betsey Robertson (15)
Mary Robertson ( 11 months)
happy hunting
Snowolf
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Headstone Inscription for George Robertson and Margaret Haldane Henderson with write up.
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/135764893/george-robertson
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/135765150/margaret-haldane-robertson
a son David Henderson Robertson mentioned but no Robert Robertson
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/135765013/david-henderson-robertson#view-photo=164655716
Sandra
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Another thread about the same family
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=806737
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The findagrave photos are very helpful, Sandra and has shown me what happened to David Robertson, so a bonus there. Interesting that William Ritchie, grandson, added the notes to it, wonder where he fits in?
snowolf that could be the wrong Agnes as the original was b 10 Jul 1852 unless she passed away and this one was born when her mother was 47?
Alexander Lawso McKay apparently isn't middle named Lawson according to his baptism on SP otherwise I'd have guessed where Margaret belonged unless that is a misprint?
The FSO tree is mine Sandra as you guessed.
Forfarian I'd got Bathia's illegitimate children, I think and Margaret's father wasn't named.
Cr
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Sometimes that happens with names on SP and others - no doubt that is more than likely Lawson. Have you managed to treace Alexander back at all ?
Sandra
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Forfarian I'd got Bathia's illegitimate children, I think and Margaret's father wasn't named.
No, but everything else fits exactly.
There were only two Margarets registered in Kinfauns in 1869/70, and the other one, Margaret Small, is with her parents in Kinnoull in the 1881 census.
An illegitimate child could only be registered under its father's surname if the father accompanied the mother to the Registrar's when she went to register the birth, and signed the register at the same time as she did. Even if the entire parish knew who the father was, if he didn't acknowledge paternity at the time of registration, the child would be registered only under its mother's surname.
So it is quite likely that the father of Margaret Haldane Henderson Robertson was someone whose surname was Lawson.
It is likely that Bathia's unmarried pregnancies came to the attention of the Kinfauns Kirk Session, and if so that there could be something about her and the father in the Kinfauns Kirk Session minutes. These are not yet available online, unfortunately, but can be accessed digitally in General Register House in Edinburgh and in some local archives including Aberdeen, Hawick, Inverness and Glasgow.
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So what you appear to be saying Forfarian is that Margaret H H Robertson was in reality Lawson not Robertson at 1881?
I've looked for the Kinfauns kirk session minutes on one site and it said:
Sheriff Court paternity decrees
Single mothers often took the fathers of their children to court for child support. Such cases were known as filiation and aliment cases. The court could order the father to provide maintenance payments to the mother. If the mother won her case, the court would issue a decree, which would allow the mother to enforce payment of aliment. We have indexed all the records of such cases held by the National Records of Scotland from at least 1855 to 1880, and can provide digital images of the records. To order your copy, simply click on the Order now link in the table below.
We have not currently found any decrees for this parish!
So no answers there?
Cr
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Sandra according to another tree on MH Alexander's parents were John Mckay, Mary Mckay (born Davidson) but as not directly related to me I've not gone further back.
Cr
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So what you appear to be saying Forfarian is that Margaret H H Robertson was in reality Lawson not Robertson at 1881?
I am saying that the child listed as Margaret Lawson in the 1881 census is the one whose birth was registered as Margaret Haldane Henderson Robertson in 1870. It's not a case of 'reality' or a case of one name being 'correct' and the other incorrect'.
I've looked for the Kinfauns kirk session minutes on one site and it said: Sheriff Court paternity decrees .....
I think I know which site you must be referring to. If so, it is a very useful site whose owners have been making available online the results of paternity cases from records of proceedings in the courts of law, and it deals only with cases which got taken forward for legal action. However it is most emphatically not not the same thing as the Kirk Session records.
The Kirk Sessions were concerned with two things. First, a fundamentally doomed effort to stamp out sin in the form of fornication, which they did by trying to shame and humiliate those caught out sinning. Second, ensuring that illegitimate children did not become a charge on the parish. In most cases, the errant father admitted paternity and that was sufficient.
In some cases, however, a man accused of being the father of a child would stick to his denial, and in a few of those cases the mother took the case to court, usually to win the legal right to have the child's maintenance paid for. Those are the paternity cases referred to on the site you have found.
The records of the Kirk Sessions are held in the National Records of Scotland and as I have said they can be accessed there or in some other local archives. They have been digitised but they have not yet been made available online, though I understand that there are plans to make them available eventually via Scotland's People.
I checked the catalogue of the National Records of Scotland at www.nrscotland.gov.uk and I see that the Kinfauns Kirk Session minutes for the period in question have survived. Whether they actually contain information about Bathia Robertson's illegitimate children I cannot say without looking at the actual documents.
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Thank you Forfarian for helping me to now know who Margaret Lawson really was at 1881.
As to the Kinfauns kirk sessions minutes I had a look at that site you quoted and found lots of kirk sessions but none for Kirkfauns.
Cr
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Thank you Forfarian for helping me to now know who Margaret Lawson really was at 1881.
As to the Kinfauns kirk sessions minutes I had a look at that site you quoted and found lots of kirk sessions but none for Kirkfauns.
Go to catalogue.nrscotland.gov.uk/nrsonlinecatalogue/search.aspx
Enter CH2/582 in the second box, the one labelled 'Reference', and search.
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Did that Forfarian but didn't get to see the minutes as it looks as though you have to do it in person at their computer in the Reid Room?
Cr
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Did that Forfarian but didn't get to see the minutes as it looks as though you have to do it in person at their computer in the Reid Room?
Yes, that is what I told you in Reply #8 and Reply #11 above. You either have to go to General Register House in Edinburgh, or to one of a small number of archives in Scotland who have a link to Edinburgh, and view the kirk session records on one of their terminals.
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Well that's the end of that then, Forfarian, I don't live in Scotland and am not planning to go there any time soon. Thank you for finding out about it.
Cr
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Headstone Inscription for George Robertson and Margaret Haldane Henderson with write up.
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/135764893/george-robertson
This may be the grandson William Ritchie mentioned on the above?
RITCHIE WILLIAM & DEMPSTER KATE
1891
366/ 1 Kinfauns
Annie
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Margaret Haldane Henderson Robertson, born Kinfauns, 28 March 1870, mother Bathea Robertson, no father named?
As the surname Henderson has been accounted for, have you looked for a Mr Haldane in the area in 1871 as a possible father?
Annie
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Rosinish, there a lot of Haldanes' in that are so difficult to know which one to choose?
Cr
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"there a lot of Haldanes' so difficult to know which one to choose?"
Did she name a father on her marriage as that would narrow it down to a forename with occ. at least?
Annie
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In earlier replies, Forfarian said:
There were only two Margarets registered in Kinfauns in 1869/70, and the other one, Margaret Small, is with her parents in Kinnoull in the 1881 census.
So it is quite likely that the father of Margaret Haldane Henderson Robertson was someone whose surname was Lawson.
Where Haldane comes in I don't know either.
Cr
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Duh...I forgot Margaret's g/mother had a middle name Haldane i.e. named after her, Margaret Haldane Robertson (M.S. Henderson) the g/mother she was with in 1881
Annie