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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Topic started by: battista on Tuesday 26 March 19 11:06 GMT (UK)
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I'm trying to find out exactly where Eileen Gertrude St. Aubyn Burke is from. I'm new to Irish genealogy, I didn't even realise I had an ancestor from here that was so closely related until a week ago. I've looked on irishgenealogy.ie, I couldn't find anything for her in the church records (I believe civil registration wasn't around when she was born). Although, I wouldn't be surprised if I'm not using it correctly.
Here are all the details I have, I don't think I have enough to find anything about her from Ireland unfortunately. All my English ancestors were much easier to track...
Given names: Eileen Gertrude St. Aubyn
Surname: Burke
Birth: approx. 1858, Ireland
Marriage: 23rd of December 1884, New South Wales, Australia
Husband: Henry John Murray (born in New Zealand)
Death: 4th of September 1926, Christchurch, New Zealand
Father: John St. Aubyn Burke
Father's occupation: Squatter
Mother: Stella Chester
Her marriage record: https://i.imgur.com/bZEQHfH.png
Her son's enlistment paper: https://i.imgur.com/058nZam.jpg
Those are the only two documents I have of her. I'll be ordering her death certificate soon, but I doubt it'll have any useful information in regards to where she was born.
As her father's occupation is listed as a "squatter", I believe he must have moved to Australia. As squatters in Aussie were an actual occupation ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squatting_(Australia) ). So, perhaps they all moved to NSW, Australia as a young family. Unfortunately, my Australian research to uncover further details about where this family came from has turned up dead ends. Nothing could be found or their names were too common to identify which one was them. She wasn't born in Australia, as there's no record of an Eileen Burke being born in in 1858 +/- 5 yrs. Plus all the written family history and her son's enlistment record state she was born in Ireland (I suppose that could all be incorrect).
Any tips for locating further info about this family?
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https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/en/civil-records/help/what-civil-records-are-on-line
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I see she married in an RC church but unfortunately you have no idea in Ireland where she came from, you really need a townland, county, Parish to have any chance of finding her baptism as she was born before Civil Registration but at least you have both parent's names so there is a chance.
Some of the well know sites have name searches of the parish records but it's possible her baptism didn't survive and there are many transcription errors/difficult to read pages.
https://registers.nli.ie/
Have you any idea when her family left Ireland? With any luck she may have a sibling born in Ireland after Civil Registration.
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I see she married in an RC church but unfortunately you have no idea in Ireland where she came from, you really need a townland, county, Parish to have any chance of finding her baptism as she was born before Civil Registration but at least you have both parent's names so there is a chance.
Some of the well know sites have name searches of the parish records but it's possible her baptism didn't survive and there are many transcription errors/difficult to read pages.
https://registers.nli.ie/
Have you any idea when her family left Ireland? With any luck she may have a sibling born in Ireland after Civil Registration.
Not entirely sure, in her son's 1917 enlistment papers it states she's been living in NZ for 30 years (1887). They were married in 1884 in NSW, she's named as living in NZ at that time. So I guess there's a chance her family moved not long before the marriage. I'm just not sure exactly when they did. The fact that her father is a squatter tells me that they moved to Australia as a family, perhaps they didn't it's hard to say. Unfortunately, I don't think there's enough info to find anything. I'm hoping I can find some record of the parents, they might have a specific location they were from.
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He was a squatter where?
Did he have a name for farm??
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He was a squatter where?
Did he have a name for farm??
Unfortunately, the only details I have about this family are the marriage record for Eileen Gertrude St Aubyn Burke and her son's enlistment paper. The marriage record (https://i.imgur.com/bZEQHfH.png) simply states John St. Aubyn Burke's occupation was a squatter. I don't have a name for a farm, nor where it would be. Presumably, it would be in NSW in Australia, was squatting an actual occupation in Ireland as well?
I'm trying to see if I can find a record of him in Australia at the moment.
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Not an occupation here....
Often people name Properties after "homeplace"
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We only have the illegal form of squatting.
I think you need to find a passenger list for them and perhaps there is something to find in the newspapers. Trove is good. https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/
Might be a good idea to get help on the Australia board to find everything you can on the family there before searching in Ireland.
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I agree with Sinan that you should find out as much as possible about the family in Australia before tackling Ireland.
I recommend Irish Genealogy Toolkit for advice on Irish research. http://www.irish-genealogy-toolkit.com
It has a list of resources. It has a section on emigration under the heading Genealogy but there's not much on Australia.
St. Aubyn is an unusual middle name. It's one I associate with upper-class English folk. Stella and Chester are not your typical Irish names.
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I agree.... but is it a Middle Name or Surname?
As in St Aubyn-Burke ?? Just a thought
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Yes, I will do some research in Australia. I'm unsure whether the family lived in Australia or not, as Eileen lived in NZ, her husband was born in NZ too. They might have just been married in NSW (it's happened a few times in my family, marriage in Australia, living in NZ).
Since the father's occupation is a squatter, I suppose we can assume at this point the family was living in Australia. We'll see.
I agree.... but is it a Middle Name or Surname?
As in St Aubyn-Burke ?? Just a thought
My cousins the St Aubyn Murray family believe it's a surname and they have been treating it as such.
One family line is John St Aubyn Burke -> Eileen St Aubyn Burke -> Henry St Aubyn Murray -> Anthony St Aubyn Murray.
Henry St Aubyn Murray was Eileen and Henry Murray's first child, his descendants have continued to be named St Aubyn Murray.
Whether it really is a surname or not, I'm unsure.
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Ever-curious, I googled or rather binged.
Surname Database https://www.surnamedb.com
St Aubyn is a Norman French name which arrived in Ireland with the Normans. Gaelicized to Toibin. Settled in counties Tipperary and Kilkenny.
Ireland Roots - Surnames
Tobin derives from Toibin, Irish version of St. Aubyn. Norman French. Settled in Tipperary and Kilkenny and spread to counties Cork and Waterford.
So I was wrong. It is Irish. Anglo-Irish.
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Not wrong..... More knowledgable! ;D
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I was even more tired than I thought last night. I'd just looked at the squatters in Australia link, totally forgot about New Zealand when I posted.
Did people emigrate stright to New Zealand or was it usually via Australia?
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I was even more tired than I thought last night. I'd just looked at the squatters in Australia link, totally forgot about New Zealand when I posted.
Did people emigrate stright to New Zealand or was it usually via Australia?
I believe you could emigrate straight to New Zealand but I know quite a few British settlers came via New South Wales (especially in the first half of the 19th century).
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You believe....but don't know??
That would be your starting point!
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You believe....but don't know??
That would be your starting point!
Sorry, I mean I know you could. The New Zealand Shipping Company took passengers from the UK directly to New Zealand starting in 1873. At least one of my ancestors did that.
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I mean find out when she arrived, where from, with Whom, etc....
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I undertand where you are coming from, but short of searching every single Church Register in Ireland she does not seem to be found on available sources.
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Hi,
I don't know if this will help, the earliest CHESTER in Ireland I found was a Philip Chester and his mother Ellen, he was a Shoemaker. In Black Castle Part Of Navan Town (Donaghmore, Meath)
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/c19/007246483/007246483_00457.pdf
This was in 1821, looking at the original document it says...…… Chester her son, but transcribed as Chesker.
No other records for him sorry.
The next results for Chester seem to be in Oldcastle, County Meath.
Maggsie
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If you look at the link to her son's enlistement
Her son's enlistment paper: https://i.imgur.com/058nZam.jpg
It shows her name as Emily which may aid searching
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I undertand where you are coming from, but short of searching every single Church Register in Ireland she does not seem to be found on available sources.
Burke/Bourke is one of the most common surnames in Ireland, now distributed through all 4 provinces.
It's another Anglo-Norman name - de Burgo, de Burgh, which arrived in Ireland late 12th century.
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343 results when just using Chester on Griffith's http://www.rootschat.com/links/01nl1/
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https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/EP19260907.2.136?query=eileen%20gertrude%20murray&phrase=2&snippet=true
From the Evening Post 7 Sep 1926
Death occurred on Saturday morning at Christchurch of Mrs Eileen Gertrude Murray , widow of the late Mr Henry Murray , formerly a well known citizen of Christchurch ....The daughter of an Army Officer , Mrs Murray was born in County Cork , Ireland , and came at an early age with her family to Australia. As a young woman she came to New Zealand ...
the article goes on to mention her children , Stella Murray , celebrated contralto , Mr H St A Murray ( an athlete I believe , ) and Mr Bernard Murray.
Not sure how reliable the references to Cork and the Army are ;D
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That is the kind of thing that needs to be found!
Nice one!
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Not sure how reliable the references to Cork and the Army are ;D
Check Overseas Births Register for army births?
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https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/EP19260907.2.136?query=eileen%20gertrude%20murray&phrase=2&snippet=true
From the Evening Post 7 Sep 1926
Death occurred on Saturday morning at Christchurch of Mrs Eileen Gertrude Murray , widow of the late Mr Henry Murray , formerly a well known citizen of Christchurch ....The daughter of an Army Officer , Mrs Murray was born in County Cork , Ireland , and came at an early age with her family to Australia. As a young woman she came to New Zealand ...
the article goes on to mention her children , Stella Murray , celebrated contralto , Mr H St A Murray ( an athlete I believe , ) and Mr Bernard Murray.
Not sure how reliable the references to Cork and the Army are ;D
Wow, that is certainly more information than I thought could be found... Thank you so much Christine. So she did move with her family at a young age, the squatter detail was important. Very interesting. I'll still focus on researching Australian newspapers, documents etc. seeing as she spent a lot of time there, and there should be records of her parents. Perhaps there will be more details on her death certificate, I will order that today.
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You have
Given names: Eileen Gertrude St. Aubyn
Surname: Burke
Birth: approx. 1858, Ireland
Marriage: 23rd of December 1884, New South Wales, Australia
Husband: Henry John Murray (born in New Zealand)
Where in NSW??
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You have
Given names: Eileen Gertrude St. Aubyn
Surname: Burke
Birth: approx. 1858, Ireland
Marriage: 23rd of December 1884, New South Wales, Australia
Husband: Henry John Murray (born in New Zealand)
Where in NSW??
Marriage record here: https://i.imgur.com/bZEQHfH.png
St. Thomas Church [illegible], Petersham, NSW an RC church
https://trove.nla.gov.au/work/168798344?q&versionId=183994348 This only goes up to 1870
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Check Overseas Births Register for army births?
Source Gro Regimental Birth Indices (1761 To 1924)
Archive reference REG1
Record set British Armed Forces And Overseas Births And Baptisms
First name(s) John
Sex Male
Last name Burke
Birth year 1828
Regiment 74th Foot
Type Armed Forces
Country Ireland
Place Cork
Page 44
Archive
General Register Office
Record's year range 1828
Volume 1304
Line number 102
Category Birth, Marriage & Death (Parish Registers)
Subcategory Civil Births
Collections from Great Britain, UK Other
There's another one with the same details, but on page 48 instead of 44. Used findmypast for that, not sure if that's the best one to use for these records? Too bad John Burke is such a common name, it's hard to figure out who is who. This one would've been 30 when Eileen was born.
No St Aubyn Burke, Stella Burke, Eileen Gertrude Burke on any of the New South Wales BDM, newspapers, findmypast, familysearch or ancestry. Couldn't find any more information on Eileen from Paper's Past either (NZ newspapers), only two obituaries which Christine53 found.
Tried NSW BDM for just Burke and parents given names as John and Stella, no records.
Waiting on NZ death certificate. Going to continue with Australia in the hopes of finding something. Tried Victoria and QLD too. If I'm unable to find anything will post to the Australian subforum.
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Did you look for Eileen, Emily or Gertrude Burke in Regimental Birth Indices? I'm confused as to where the name Emily came from. Was it a mistake?
Have you tried phonetic spellings of Burke, e.g. Bourke?
Searching for a John Burke without further information is looking for needles in haystacks. According to one source, Burke is in top 20 most common Irish surnames. Add to that the fact that joining the army was a popular career choice for young Irishmen - they were a huge proportion of the British Army in 19thC.
Remember the Irish versions of St. Aubyn - Tobin and Toibin. John St Aubyn Burke could be John Tobin Burke or Owen Tobin Bourke, or any combination.
Stella may have been short for Estella. Eileen could be Ellen or Helen.
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Am really pushing the boat out now.... ;D
Given the rarity of St. Aubyn in Ireland and that yours was a military man could he have been a "Burke of Castle Town"
James St. Aubyn (b 16.10.1709, d 29.02.1753, 3rd son)
(1) John St. Aubyn
m. _ Burke (dau of John Burke of Castle Town)
(A)+ issue - John, Catherine, Mary
https://www.stirnet.com/genie/data/british/ss4tz/staubyn2.php
https://www.stirnet.com/genie/support/indices/bindbb.php
Am only posting as it is the only St. Aubyn m. Burke I can find!!
I am aware of Years and that children weren't Burke and haven't checked the Burkes in /indices/bindbb.php link posted!
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Thanks @hallmark, that is an interesting lead. Hmm, a marriage between a St Aubyn and a Burke does seem like the right track.
Bit of a stretch here too:
Name: JOHN BURKE
Date of Event: 1851
Group Registration ID: N/R
SR District/Reg Area: Cork
Returns Year: 1851
Returns Quarter: 1
Returns Volume No: 4
Returns Page No: 494
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie
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Battista I realise this is 2019 post. I research names from an old Irish Surgeon/ Dr's Shakespeare's Birthday Book who arrived in NZ on 1899.
Among some 800-900 Autographs is a
Stella Frances Eileen Murray Jun 14 1887-1965 Contralto Singer
and an E G Murray (Eileen Gertrude) nee Burke born Oct 26 who married Henry John Murray (born NZ) 23rd December 1884 NSW Australia.
This may be of interest to you. Thanks Shane CHCH NZ.
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Battista I realise this is 2019 post. I research names from an old Irish Surgeon/ Dr's Shakespeare's Birthday Book who arrived in NZ on 1899.
Among some 800-900 Autographs is a
Stella Frances Eileen Murray Jun 14 1887-1965 Contralto Singer
and an E G Murray (Eileen Gertrude) nee Burke born Oct 26 who married Henry John Murray (born NZ) 23rd December 1884 NSW Australia.
This may be of interest to you. Thanks Shane CHCH NZ.
Hi Shane, sorry for the late reply. That's very interesting, I never had a birth day or month for Eileen, only a rough year before. Is there any way I can get a photo of the original page/section where this information is written?
What's the nature of this book, do you know why there are so many autographs?
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The once owner was a ships surgeon then a doctor and musician He meet many people on his travels and had them sign his Shakespeare's Birthday Book. When and why he must have just liked them.
Yes it would be easier to send and email address through a private message here. As I need to take a photo and down load it to my lap top. If that's ok Thanks Shane.