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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Sussex => Topic started by: Handson on Sunday 07 April 19 11:11 BST (UK)

Title: What Was Staff Sergeant Alfred Moss’ Wife Edith’s Maiden Name?
Post by: Handson on Sunday 07 April 19 11:11 BST (UK)
Alfred Moss b 28 April 1868 in Brighton married Edith ??? b 21 December 1877 Bermondsey.
Birth dates lifted from 1939 Register.
Birth places from 1901 Census.
Q. What was Edith’s maiden name; when/where were they married?
Q. Where were Alfred and Edith in 1911?
Title: Re: What Was Staff Sergeant Alfred Moss’ Wife Edith’s Maiden Name?
Post by: PaulineJ on Sunday 07 April 19 11:28 BST (UK)
Any kids with 'em at 1901?
Location in 1901?
Alone or together at 1891?
Title: Re: What Was Staff Sergeant Alfred Moss’ Wife Edith’s Maiden Name?
Post by: PaulineJ on Sunday 07 April 19 11:34 BST (UK)
Is this the 1911?  https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X7BF-TWJ

Get MMN from kids birth(s) www.gro.gov.uk
Title: Re: What Was Staff Sergeant Alfred Moss’ Wife Edith’s Maiden Name?
Post by: medpat on Sunday 07 April 19 11:38 BST (UK)
Alter DOB to 1870 he's a teacher of physical education in Sussex and has 2 daughters Edith 1905 and Maud 1902 but stated as they are born Hastings - not on GRO in Hastings.Married 10 years.

Address   116 Milward Road Hastings
Parish   Hastings
County   Sussex
Country   England
Archive reference   RG14
Registration district   Hastings
Registration district number   69
Enumeration district   11
District number   11
Sub district   All Saints
Sub district number   2
Census reference   RG14PN4741 RG78PN203 RD69 SD2 ED11 SN152
RG78 code number   203
Piece number   4741
Title: Re: What Was Staff Sergeant Alfred Moss’ Wife Edith’s Maiden Name?
Post by: rosie99 on Sunday 07 April 19 11:41 BST (UK)
Alfred Moss b 28 April 1868 in Brighton married Edith ??? b 21 December 1877 Bermondsey.
Birth dates lifted from 1939 Register.
Birth places from 1901 Census.
Q. What was Edith’s maiden name; when/where were they married?
Q. Where were Alfred and Edith in 1911?

It does help if you give us the information from the 1901 you have found rather than leave us to look it up for ourselves.  :)
Title: Re: What Was Staff Sergeant Alfred Moss’ Wife Edith’s Maiden Name?
Post by: louisa maud on Sunday 07 April 19 12:07 BST (UK)
Can't find a marriage so far to an Edith circa 1901

Mis-transcribed on one census  as MORS, also place of birth different for Edith

Do you have any more information you can share

Louisa Maud

Title: Re: What Was Staff Sergeant Alfred Moss’ Wife Edith’s Maiden Name?
Post by: rutht22000 on Sunday 07 April 19 12:22 BST (UK)
just throwing this out there -  ;D Is Maud the Maud Victoria Moss who marries in Hastings in 1929 to a Cecil J Skirth?  If so that marriage also gives an alternative name of Trelfer for Maud Victoria.  It could be married name and its the wrong Maud Victoria and this was one that was marrying as a widow and totally unrelated but equally she might have been known as Trelfer or Moss.  Edited:  If that is her she dies as Victoria Maude Skirth in 1974

I can't see a Maud Victoria Moss in Sussex around that time being born 1902-ish but there are other Maud Victoria's.  Mum and Dad's information being married 10 years might not necessarily be the exact truth if they were not married at all.

I wonder if the key is the children being registered under mother's maiden name?
Title: Re: What Was Staff Sergeant Alfred Moss’ Wife Edith’s Maiden Name?
Post by: Ladyhawk on Sunday 07 April 19 12:28 BST (UK)
for info here's Alfred on 1891c surname transcribed as MASS

Head Quarter and Garrison Staff
Alfred Moss single Age:   22 occ Instructor in Gymnatstics
Birth Place:   Brighton, Sussex, England
Civil Parish:   Aldershot
Residence Place:   Aldershot, Aldershot, Hampshire, England
RG12; Piece: 567 :   567 Folio:   76
Title: Re: What Was Staff Sergeant Alfred Moss’ Wife Edith’s Maiden Name?
Post by: rutht22000 on Sunday 07 April 19 12:29 BST (UK)
Forgive me if I am off on the wrong track...

Victoria Maude Trelfer registered 1901 in Hastings
Edith Alice Trelfer registered 1905 in Hastings.


This Edith seems to marry a William Barber in 1925 in Hastings
Title: Re: What Was Staff Sergeant Alfred Moss’ Wife Edith’s Maiden Name?
Post by: JenB on Sunday 07 April 19 12:32 BST (UK)
The two Trelfer birth dates fit exactly with the 1911 census for the Moss family.

But they both have mother's maiden surname Phillips  :-\
Title: Re: What Was Staff Sergeant Alfred Moss’ Wife Edith’s Maiden Name?
Post by: Ladyhawk on Sunday 07 April 19 12:38 BST (UK)
Forgive me if I am off on the wrong track...

Victoria Maude Trelfer registered 1901 in Hastings
Edith Alice Trelfer registered 1905 in Hastings.


This Edith seems to marry a William Barber in 1925 in Hastings

I've just been looking at this record on F M P

Alfred Moss
Birth year   1868
Birth parish   Brighton Sussex
Service number   2982
Regiment   8th Hussars
Year   1886
Attestation date   18 Sep 1886
Attestation age years   18
Attestation age months   5
Attestation service number   2982
Attestation corps   8th (King'S Royal Irish) Hussars
Discharge corps   8th (King'S Royal Irish) Hussars
Document type   Attestation

next of kin given as
brother William Moss 5 O? Gardens, Edward at Brighton but
his surname Moss has been crossed out and written above looks to read Trefler - it is faint
Title: Re: What Was Staff Sergeant Alfred Moss’ Wife Edith’s Maiden Name?
Post by: rutht22000 on Sunday 07 April 19 12:42 BST (UK)
Then David Trelfer (possibly aka Alfred Moss) married Edith Alice Philips in Wandsworth in 1900 that matches the 10 years married in 1911.

I wonder if he changed his name for some reason? Or David/Alfred had a stepfather who who either Moss or Trelfer?

Ladyhawk - I'll have a look at that FindMyPast record see if my eyes work  ;D ;D
Title: Re: What Was Staff Sergeant Alfred Moss’ Wife Edith’s Maiden Name?
Post by: cath151 on Sunday 07 April 19 12:45 BST (UK)
There is a  marriage St Stephens Battersea
Sep 16th 1900
Edith Alice Phillips 22
David Trelfer 31  Gymnastics instructor

Strange but not as strange as when I looked at Alfreds possible service records and saw under Distinguishing marks( I take it a Tattoo)  MY name and its a fairly unusual surname!

Cathy
Title: Re: What Was Staff Sergeant Alfred Moss’ Wife Edith’s Maiden Name?
Post by: Ladyhawk on Sunday 07 April 19 12:45 BST (UK)
Then David Trelfer (possibly aka Alfred Moss) married Edith Alice Philips in Wandsworth in 1900 that matches the 10 years married in 1911.

I wonder if he changed his name for some reason?

Ladyhawk - I'll have a look at that FindMyPast record see if my eyes work  ;D ;D

David Trefler 31 occupation on that marriage is a Gymnastics Instructor  :)
father David Trefler, baker dec'd
Edith 22  her father George Henry Phillips occ traveller
Title: Re: What Was Staff Sergeant Alfred Moss’ Wife Edith’s Maiden Name?
Post by: trish1120 on Sunday 07 April 19 12:49 BST (UK)
Birth Reg;
Sept 1901, TRELFER    Victoria Maud    Hastings    2b   27
+ Edith Alice March 1905

EDIT; GRO has Victoria Mauds Mothers mn as PHILLIPS
Title: Re: What Was Staff Sergeant Alfred Moss’ Wife Edith’s Maiden Name?
Post by: rutht22000 on Sunday 07 April 19 12:57 BST (UK)
Forgive me if I am off on the wrong track...

Victoria Maude Trelfer registered 1901 in Hastings
Edith Alice Trelfer registered 1905 in Hastings.


This Edith seems to marry a William Barber in 1925 in Hastings

I've just been looking at this record on F M P

Alfred Moss
Birth year   1868
Birth parish   Brighton Sussex
Service number   2982
Regiment   8th Hussars
Year   1886
Attestation date   18 Sep 1886
Attestation age years   18
Attestation age months   5
Attestation service number   2982
Attestation corps   8th (King'S Royal Irish) Hussars
Discharge corps   8th (King'S Royal Irish) Hussars
Document type   Attestation

next of kin given as
brother William Moss 5 O? Gardens, Edward at Brighton but
his surname Moss has been crossed out and written above looks to read Trefler - it is faint

You are quite right - that says Trelfer.

I wonder if the note about fraudulent enlistment in the Army has anything to do with his name change?
Title: Re: What Was Staff Sergeant Alfred Moss’ Wife Edith’s Maiden Name?
Post by: rutht22000 on Sunday 07 April 19 13:00 BST (UK)
1869 there is a David Trelfer born in Hastings

1871 - can't find yet

1881 census has David Trelfer living in Hurstpierpoint as a Servant at St Johns College (RG11/1066/79 p 3).  He is 12 then and born Brighton and post that seems to disappear completely...
Title: Re: What Was Staff Sergeant Alfred Moss’ Wife Edith’s Maiden Name?
Post by: Handson on Sunday 07 April 19 13:02 BST (UK)
Alfred Moss enlisted in the 8th (King’s Royal Irish) Hussars in 1886 (Regimental No. 2982) based mainly at Aldershot. on demob from Aldershot he secured a position in 1894 as visiting teacher of Physical Education at Wellington Day College for Girls in  Hastings -a role he held for quite a number of years [reference Hastings newspapers].

He was a World renowned physical specimen [Google him]. His heavy tattooing militated against him becoming even more 'accepted' as a physical role model.

His equally renowned contemporary 'bodybuilder' Eugen Sandow had a name change before being established as Sandow.

I suppose Alfred Moss MIGHT have had a name change but if he did it was early on as his renown was always as Staff Sergeant Major Alfred Moss.
Title: Re: What Was Staff Sergeant Alfred Moss’ Wife Edith’s Maiden Name?
Post by: rutht22000 on Sunday 07 April 19 13:07 BST (UK)
If there is a name change for whatever reason (assuming one and the same man) is between the ages of 12 (1881 census?) and September 1886 (aged 18 1/2) when he joins up and back again when he marries in 1900
Title: Re: What Was Staff Sergeant Alfred Moss’ Wife Edith’s Maiden Name?
Post by: JenB on Sunday 07 April 19 13:47 BST (UK)
next of kin given as
brother William Moss 5 O? Gardens, Edward at Brighton but
his surname Moss has been crossed out and written above looks to read Trefler - it is faint

I think the address is 5 Stien Gardens.

A William Trelfer aged 36, born Brighton, and family are living at 7 Stein Gardens Brighton in 1891. RG 12 / 802 / 13 / 19
Title: Re: What Was Staff Sergeant Alfred Moss’ Wife Edith’s Maiden Name?
Post by: JenB on Sunday 07 April 19 13:58 BST (UK)
next of kin given as
brother William Moss 5 O? Gardens, Edward at Brighton but
his surname Moss has been crossed out and written above looks to read Trefler - it is faint

I think the address is 5 Stien Gardens.

A William Trelfer aged 36, born Brighton, and family are living at 7 Stein Gardens Brighton in 1891. RG 12 / 802 / 13 / 19

Births:

William Trelfer, 2nd q. 1854, Brighton 2b, 176, mother's maiden surname Sinnock

David Trelfer, 2nd q. 1869, Brighton 2b, 218, mother's maiden surname Sinnock.
Title: Re: What Was Staff Sergeant Alfred Moss’ Wife Edith’s Maiden Name?
Post by: Handson on Sunday 07 April 19 14:00 BST (UK)
If there was a name change Trelfer->Moss->Trelfer after 'Alfred Moss' was demobbed ca 1894 he still maintained the name Moss into the early 1900s at the Wellington College where he was visiting teacher of gymnastics.
Also 'Alfred Moss' published several books well into the 1920s e.g. Handbook of Free Gymnastics.
Some of these are available on AMAZON & eBay.
How would he get his Army pension if he changed his name back from Moss to Trelfer I wonder?

What's the consensus on all of this? ???
Title: Re: What Was Staff Sergeant Alfred Moss’ Wife Edith’s Maiden Name?
Post by: Ladyhawk on Sunday 07 April 19 14:01 BST (UK)
next of kin given as
brother William Moss 5 O? Gardens, Edward at Brighton but
his surname Moss has been crossed out and written above looks to read Trefler - it is faint

I think the address is 5 Stien Gardens.

A William Trelfer aged 36, born Brighton, and family are living at 7 Stein Gardens Brighton in 1891. RG 12 / 802 / 13 / 19

Good find

William Trefler occ cab man at that address in 1901 with his family
Archive reference   RG13
Piece number   921
Folio   93
Page   37

1881 William & Ruth Trefler he's noted as wife's brother in law (surname Pentecost)
Archive reference   RG11
Piece number   1081
Folio   13
Page   17

1871 Census William Trefler age 17 Sussex occ servant
Archive reference   RG10
Piece number   1076
Folio   85
Page   14

1871 William Trefler 19 Sussex brother (interesting he appears to have the same occupation as one above Po?man
Archive reference   RG10
Piece number   1076
Folio   114
Page   32

Ann Trefler Head 19
Fanny 15
Mary 8
Ruth 5

Not finding Alfred/David Trelfer/Moss on 1871 census  ???
Title: Re: What Was Staff Sergeant Alfred Moss’ Wife Edith’s Maiden Name?
Post by: Ladyhawk on Sunday 07 April 19 14:17 BST (UK)
next of kin given as
brother William Moss 5 O? Gardens, Edward at Brighton but
his surname Moss has been crossed out and written above looks to read Trefler - it is faint

I think the address is 5 Stien Gardens.

A William Trelfer aged 36, born Brighton, and family are living at 7 Stein Gardens Brighton in 1891. RG 12 / 802 / 13 / 19

1881 census 5, Stiene Gardens, Brighton, Sussex
Piece number   1078
Folio   98
Page   9

Fanny Trefler from 1871 census is now married surname Jenner and living at the above address
also sister Ruth Trelfler is with her
Title: Re: What Was Staff Sergeant Alfred Moss’ Wife Edith’s Maiden Name?
Post by: rutht22000 on Sunday 07 April 19 14:26 BST (UK)
Nothing on the 1871 and nothing for the baptism of David Trelfer in 1868ish either..... I wonder if he was illegitmate or never knew his parents.  There is George Trelfer who was a baker (recalling he said his father was David Trelfer, Baker on the marriage certificate) that fits agewise but unable to marry the names up.  That George seems to be in the Workhouse in his elderly years.
Title: Re: What Was Staff Sergeant Alfred Moss’ Wife Edith’s Maiden Name?
Post by: JenB on Sunday 07 April 19 14:30 BST (UK)
1871 census transcribed as Kelfer

RG 10 / 872 / 56 / 29

8, Fullers Place, Elmers End, Beckenham

George Lipscombe, head, mar, 51, Gardener, Sussex Petworth
Catherine do, wife,m, 59, Laundress, do Pycomb,
Ann Trelfer, dau in law, widow, 40, do, do Symelston
Frederick Sinnock, son in law, unm, 21, plasterer, do do
Frederick ?Furnell, grandson, 5, scholar, Surrey Penge
David Trelfer, grandson, 2, Sussex Brighton
Title: Re: What Was Staff Sergeant Alfred Moss’ Wife Edith’s Maiden Name?
Post by: JenB on Sunday 07 April 19 14:35 BST (UK)
. I wonder if he was illegitmate or never knew his parents. 

Per reply #20, he appears to be born David Trelfer, mother's maiden surname Sinnock.

Marriage, Steyning, 4th q 1852, William Trelfer + on same page Ann Sinnick.
Title: Re: What Was Staff Sergeant Alfred Moss’ Wife Edith’s Maiden Name?
Post by: rutht22000 on Sunday 07 April 19 14:40 BST (UK)
1871 census transcribed as Kelfer

RG 10 / 872 / 56 / 29

8, Fullers Place, Elmers End, Beckenham

George Lipscombe, head, mar, 51, Gardener, Sussex Petworth
Catherine do, wife,m, 59, Laundress, do Pycomb,
Ann Trelfer, dau in law, widow, 40, do, do Symelston
Frederick Sinnock, son in law, unm, 21, plasterer, do do
Frederick ?Furnell, grandson, 5, scholar, Surrey Penge
David Trelfer, grandson, 2, Sussex Brighton

good spot!

1851 has dad as William Trefler, a baker and a sister Lucy, 8 months.

HO107/1645/807 p 8

(just seen your post with the marriage Jen  :))
Title: Re: What Was Staff Sergeant Alfred Moss’ Wife Edith’s Maiden Name?
Post by: rutht22000 on Sunday 07 April 19 14:42 BST (UK)
. I wonder if he was illegitmate or never knew his parents. 

Per reply #20, he appears to be born David Trelfer, mother's maiden surname Sinnock.

Marriage, Steyning, 4th q 1852, William Trelfer + on same page Ann Sinnick.

ah! thank you - missed that one  :)
Title: Re: What Was Staff Sergeant Alfred Moss’ Wife Edith’s Maiden Name?
Post by: Ladyhawk on Sunday 07 April 19 14:47 BST (UK)
Well done both  :)

Lucy Trelfer Age:   19
Marriage 1870 Saint Nicholas, Brighton, Sussex, England
Father:   William Trelfer
Spouse:   Benjamin Brown

Lucy Trelfer
Christening 7 May 1854 Brighton, Sussex,
Father:   William Trelfer Mother:   Ann
Title: Re: What Was Staff Sergeant Alfred Moss’ Wife Edith’s Maiden Name?
Post by: JenB on Sunday 07 April 19 14:49 BST (UK)
In 1861 William Trelfer, journeyman baker, + wife Ann and children Lucy, Anne, William, Frances & Joseph are living at 55 Elder Street, Brighton.
RG 9 / 596 / 73 / 16
Title: Re: What Was Staff Sergeant Alfred Moss’ Wife Edith’s Maiden Name?
Post by: JenB on Sunday 07 April 19 14:57 BST (UK)
Alfred Moss's military papers show that he had a tattoo on his left arm with the name C. Sinnock

I rest my case  ;D
Title: Re: What Was Staff Sergeant Alfred Moss’ Wife Edith’s Maiden Name?
Post by: Handson on Sunday 07 April 19 15:01 BST (UK)
Tremendous efforts -grateful thanks. :-*
Title: Re: What Was Staff Sergeant Alfred Moss’ Wife Edith’s Maiden Name?
Post by: Ladyhawk on Sunday 07 April 19 15:02 BST (UK)
In 1861 William Trelfer, journeyman baker, + wife Ann and children Lucy, Anne, William, Frances & Joseph are living at 55 Elder Street, Brighton.
RG 9 / 596 / 73 / 16

I was about to  post following

not finding any birth entries on FreeBMD or GRO indexes for persons below from 1871 census to confirm mother's maiden name

Ann   Trelfer         Head            1852      Sussex, England
William   Trelfer   Brother         1852      Sussex, England
Fanny   Trelfer   -            1856      Sussex, England
Mary   Trelfer   -            1863      Sussex, England
Ruth   Trelfer   -            1866      Sussex, England

Alfred Moss's military papers show that he had a tattoo on his left arm with the name C. Sinnock

I rest my case  ;D

JenB well done good detective work & also  ruth22000

Title: Re: What Was Staff Sergeant Alfred Moss’ Wife Edith’s Maiden Name?
Post by: JenB on Sunday 07 April 19 15:06 BST (UK)
JenB well done good detective work & also  ruth22000

You were the one who noticed the all-important Trelfer name on the attestation papers  ;D
Title: Re: What Was Staff Sergeant Alfred Moss’ Wife Edith’s Maiden Name?
Post by: JenB on Sunday 07 April 19 15:13 BST (UK)
I was about to  post following

not finding any birth entries on FreeBMD or GRO indexes for persons below from 1871 census to confirm mother's maiden name

Ann   Trelfer         Head            1852      Sussex, England
William   Trelfer   Brother         1852      Sussex, England
Fanny   Trelfer   -            1856      Sussex, England
Mary   Trelfer   -            1863      Sussex, England
Ruth   Trelfer   -            1866      Sussex, England



They are all showing for me, mother's maiden surname Sinnock.
Title: Re: What Was Staff Sergeant Alfred Moss’ Wife Edith’s Maiden Name?
Post by: Ladyhawk on Sunday 07 April 19 15:20 BST (UK)
4 Nov 1872 St Simon Zelotes, Chelsea, Kensington and Chelsea, England
Annie TREFLER f/a father William Trelfer occ BAKER Dec'd
Henry James Boxendale (Baxendale) f/a tailor father Thomas shoemaker
19 New Street

edit

Ann Trelfer
Baptism 7 May 1854 St Peters, Brighton, Sussex
Father:   William Trelfer Mother:   Ann
Title: Re: What Was Staff Sergeant Alfred Moss’ Wife Edith’s Maiden Name?
Post by: Ladyhawk on Sunday 07 April 19 15:33 BST (UK)
I'm only posting this due the names - do not know if there maybe a connection to the other TRELFER's

1841 census address Trafalgar Street Brighton
reference   HO107
Piece number   1121
Folio number   40
Page number   29

David Trelfer      1811   Sussex, England
Mary   Trelfer      1811   Sussex, England
David Trelfer      1786   Sussex, England
Ann   Trelfer      1791   Sussex, England
both David's occupation are Sho’ M (Shoemakers)

David Trelfer   
02 Jul 1784 Lewes, Sussex, England
father George Trelfer mother Mary

David Trelfer
marriage 25 Jan 1806 Brighton
Ann Elliot

and this 1841 entry

reference   HO107
Piece number   1120
Book number   8
Folio number   31
Page number   9

North Street, St Thomas a Becket in the Cliffe, Lewes, Sussex
David Trelfer              1784   occ Cordwainer
Mary   Trelfer              1787   
George   Trelfer      1821   occ Baker
Thomas   Trelfer      1823   
William   Trelfer      1827   
Daniel   Trelfer      1830   
Mary   Trelfer                   1818   

1851 Ivory Place, Brighton, Sussex
David   Trelfer   Head   1784   Shoe Maker Master   Lewes, Sussex
Ann   Trelfer   Wife   1788   -   Slaugham, Sussex, England
Thomas   Trelfer   Son   1825   Baker Journeyman   Slaugham, Sussex   

1851 Bond Street Row, Brighton, Sussex
George   Trelfer   Head   1821   Baker   Lewes, Sussex, England
Amelia   Trelfer   1824   Shoe Binder   Brighton, Sussex, England
Abigail   Trelfer   1846   -   Brighton, Sussex, England
David   Trelfer   1849   -   Brighton, Sussex, England
Jesse   Trelfer   1851   -   Brighton, Sussex, England
   
   
Title: Re: What Was Staff Sergeant Alfred Moss’ Wife Edith’s Maiden Name?
Post by: Handson on Sunday 07 April 19 16:05 BST (UK)
p.s. given the apparent slight uncertainty of David Trelfer/Alfred Moss in 1871 there is probably just a strange coincidence but the 1871 Aldershot Army personnel census [part torn] gives a ??d Moss age 2
father George Moss & from the word fragments it looks like 'Alfred' Moss.  Any link ??? Can't see them in 1881.
Title: Re: What Was Staff Sergeant Alfred Moss’ Wife Edith’s Maiden Name?
Post by: Ladyhawk on Sunday 07 April 19 16:31 BST (UK)
p.s. given the apparent slight uncertainty of David Trelfer/Alfred Moss in 1871 there is probably just a strange coincidence but the 1871 Aldershot Army personnel census [part torn] gives a ??d Moss age 2
father George Moss & from the word fragments it looks like 'Alfred' Moss.  Any link ??? Can't see them in 1881.


Is this them?

RG11; Piece: 690; Folio: 96; Page: 31 living Camberwell Peckham
George Moss   50 Ipswich
Mary A. Moss   51 Manningtree
Charles E. Moss   18
Frederick Moss   15
Alfred Moss   13 Aldershot
William H. Moss   10
Rosina Moss   7

Title: Re: What Was Staff Sergeant Alfred Moss’ Wife Edith’s Maiden Name?
Post by: JenB on Sunday 07 April 19 16:33 BST (UK)
p.s. given the apparent slight uncertainty of David Trelfer/Alfred Moss in 1871 there is probably just a strange coincidence but the 1871 Aldershot Army personnel census [part torn] gives a ??d Moss age 2
father George Moss & from the word fragments it looks like 'Alfred' Moss.  Any link ??? Can't see them in 1881.

In 1871 he’s with mother Ann in Beckenham, reply #25
Title: Re: What Was Staff Sergeant Alfred Moss’ Wife Edith’s Maiden Name?
Post by: Ladyhawk on Sunday 07 April 19 16:38 BST (UK)
MOSS

1891 RG12; Piece: 482; Folio: 81; Page: 27
Mary A Mass   61
Frederick Mass   24
Alfred Mass   21 Aldershot occ Printer edited not sure of occ.
William Mass   19
Rosina Mass   16
Title: Re: What Was Staff Sergeant Alfred Moss’ Wife Edith’s Maiden Name?
Post by: Handson on Sunday 07 April 19 16:41 BST (UK)
Yep looks like it.
So that links a red herring ::)
Title: Re: What Was Staff Sergeant Alfred Moss’ Wife Edith’s Maiden Name?
Post by: Ladyhawk on Sunday 07 April 19 17:07 BST (UK)
next of kin given as
brother William Moss 5 O? Gardens, Edward at Brighton but
his surname Moss has been crossed out and written above looks to read Trefler - it is faint

I think the address is 5 Stien Gardens.

A William Trelfer aged 36, born Brighton, and family are living at 7 Stein Gardens Brighton in 1891. RG 12 / 802 / 13 / 19

Births:

William Trelfer, 2nd q. 1854, Brighton 2b, 176, mother's maiden surname Sinnock

David Trelfer, 2nd q. 1869, Brighton 2b, 218, mother's maiden surname Sinnock.

David Trelfer yob should read 1868 and this matches up with the dob you have given from the 1939 Register for Alfred Moss bn 28th April 1868

There is no birth reg. in Jun quarter 1868 for an Alfred  Moss

his wife Edith Alice Phillips bn 21 Dec 1877 appears to be registered in the Mar q 1878

Edith Alice PHILLIPS  mn FENNER 
1878  M Quarter in SAINT OLAVE SOUTHWARK  Volume 01D  Page 253

Edit - on. Edith's marriage cert. father named George Henry Phillips this might be his marriage entry

Mar 1868 St Martin    1a   562    
Fenner    Susan       
Hughes    Edward       
McLean    Jessie           
Phillips    George Henry   

Edited - for ref.

George & Susan Phillips
1891 RG12; Piece: 758; Folio: 17; Page: 27     dau Edith age 13
1881 RG11; Piece: 1026; Folio: 102; Page: 42 Dau Edith A age 3
1871 RG10; Piece: 637; Folio: 96; Page: 52
Title: Re: What Was Staff Sergeant Alfred Moss’ Wife Edith’s Maiden Name?
Post by: JenB on Sunday 07 April 19 17:15 BST (UK)
I wonder if the note about fraudulent enlistment in the Army has anything to do with his name change?

That's interesting!

The record shows him 'In Conf[inemen]t Aw[aitin]g Trial' 26 January 1887 until 10th February 1887.

He was tried and imprisoned on 11.February 1887. 'Former service forfeited on conviction of fraud[ulen]t enlist[ment]'.

He was released 22 April 1887.

If I read it correctly 151 days service was deducted from his record.
Title: Re: What Was Staff Sergeant Alfred Moss’ Wife Edith’s Maiden Name?
Post by: JenB on Sunday 07 April 19 17:16 BST (UK)
next of kin given as
brother William Moss 5 O? Gardens, Edward at Brighton but
his surname Moss has been crossed out and written above looks to read Trefler - it is faint

I think the address is 5 Stien Gardens.

A William Trelfer aged 36, born Brighton, and family are living at 7 Stein Gardens Brighton in 1891. RG 12 / 802 / 13 / 19

Births:

William Trelfer, 2nd q. 1854, Brighton 2b, 176, mother's maiden surname Sinnock

David Trelfer, 2nd q. 1869, Brighton 2b, 218, mother's maiden surname Sinnock.

David Trelfer yob should read 1868

Ooops, you are quite right, apologies  :-[
Title: Re: What Was Staff Sergeant Alfred Moss’ Wife Edith’s Maiden Name?
Post by: Ladyhawk on Sunday 07 April 19 17:27 BST (UK)
Quote
Ooops, you are quite right, apologies  :-[

It's easily done I only noticed because I was looking at the posted birth date for 1939 register

I kept getting the l & f the wrong way round in Trelfer - that's probably why I couldn't find the birth entries you have found with mn ::)
Title: Re: What Was Staff Sergeant Alfred Moss’ Wife Edith’s Maiden Name?
Post by: rutht22000 on Sunday 07 April 19 17:35 BST (UK)
Quote
Ooops, you are quite right, apologies  :-[

It's easily done I only noticed because I was looking at the posted birth date for 1939 register

I kept getting the l & f the wrong way round in Trelfer - that's probably why I couldn't find the birth entries you have found with mn ::)

I'm glad I'm not the only one who kept getting the L & F the wrong way round and wondering why I couldn't find things I'd found 5 minutes earlier.... :-[
Title: Re: What Was Staff Sergeant Alfred Moss’ Wife Edith’s Maiden Name?
Post by: hepburn on Sunday 07 April 19 17:49 BST (UK)
Love how RootsChatters get their heads around problematic families and brick walls. :)
Title: Re: What Was Staff Sergeant Alfred Moss’ Wife Edith’s Maiden Name?
Post by: Handson on Sunday 07 April 19 18:08 BST (UK)
Did he fraudulently enlist as David Trelfer or Alfred Moss?
If the latter it's odd that he continued to claim/was allowed to claim that nomenclature from then on.
Had he been jailed as David Trelfer which the Army questionnaire would require him to declare?
Title: Re: What Was Staff Sergeant Alfred Moss’ Wife Edith’s Maiden Name?
Post by: IgorStrav on Sunday 07 April 19 18:22 BST (UK)
Love how RootsChatters get their heads around problematic families and brick walls. :)

Yes, and what you originally thought was quite simple turns out to be much more interesting......  ;)
Title: Re: What Was Staff Sergeant Alfred Moss’ Wife Edith’s Maiden Name?
Post by: JenB on Sunday 07 April 19 18:45 BST (UK)
Did he fraudulently enlist as David Trelfer or Alfred Moss?

Had he been jailed as David Trelfer which the Army questionnaire would require him to declare?

Given that we know his given name was David Trelfer I suppose we would have to assume that the enlistment as Alfred Moss was fraudulent.

It's interesting that on the enlistment papers the surname of his next of kin has been changed from Moss to Trelfer (as noted in reply #15)
Title: Re: What Was Staff Sergeant Alfred Moss’ Wife Edith’s Maiden Name?
Post by: rutht22000 on Sunday 07 April 19 18:58 BST (UK)
Service in Canada as David Trelfer in the 97th Foot Soldiers (28 November 1884 signing up in Maidstone, Kent) giving a birthplace as Beckenham, Kent which fits with the 1871 when he was living with grandparents and might not have known different/assumed he was born there.

There is a Court Martial for a David Trelfer on 26 January 1885 at Maidstone...can't see what for though.   West Kent Regiment.

Fits with issues in 1886 when he signs up as Alfred Moss?  Dodging he has been court martialled the year before for something?

And the Boar War 3rd Battalion Royal Sussex regiment in South Africa in 1902 again as David Trelfer
Title: Re: What Was Staff Sergeant Alfred Moss’ Wife Edith’s Maiden Name?
Post by: JenB on Sunday 07 April 19 19:34 BST (UK)
Now then! The two names used on his death registration!

Death, 4th quarter 1952, Hastings 5H 350, Alfred Moss aged 84
Death, 4th quarter 1952, Hastings 5H 350, David Trelfer aged 84.
Title: Re: What Was Staff Sergeant Alfred Moss’ Wife Edith’s Maiden Name?
Post by: rutht22000 on Sunday 07 April 19 19:37 BST (UK)
And following on from Jen's death registrations he has left a will...probate registration says:

Trelfer, David or Moss, Alfred dying at 22 St Helens Road, Hastings on 8 December 1952 probate to Edith Alice Trelfer, Widow
Title: Re: What Was Staff Sergeant Alfred Moss’ Wife Edith’s Maiden Name?
Post by: rutht22000 on Sunday 07 April 19 19:39 BST (UK)

Edith Alice dies as Edith Alice Moss or Trelfer on 21 July 1968 St Johns Nursing Home, Hastings
Title: Re: What Was Staff Sergeant Alfred Moss’ Wife Edith’s Maiden Name?
Post by: Handson on Sunday 07 April 19 19:42 BST (UK)
Good Lord! What  a roller coaster ride. :'(
Title: Re: What Was Staff Sergeant Alfred Moss’ Wife Edith’s Maiden Name?
Post by: JenB on Sunday 07 April 19 19:47 BST (UK)
Good Lord! What  a roller coaster ride. :'(

It's good isn't it  ;D
Title: Re: What Was Staff Sergeant Alfred Moss’ Wife Edith’s Maiden Name?
Post by: rutht22000 on Sunday 07 April 19 19:48 BST (UK)
Good Lord! What  a roller coaster ride. :'(

Certainly is  ;D

its that court martial in 1885 that seems to be the key but I can only see the date it happened and where.  No newspapers report it (that I can find at least) or his troubles in 1887 either.  It must have been the court martial that triggered his name change...makes you wonder what he did!
Title: Re: What Was Staff Sergeant Alfred Moss’ Wife Edith’s Maiden Name?
Post by: JenB on Sunday 07 April 19 19:51 BST (UK)
On the David Trelfer military papers you mentioned earlier it says that he deserted, but I can't make out the date. Every other date on the page is written clearly  >:(
Title: Re: What Was Staff Sergeant Alfred Moss’ Wife Edith’s Maiden Name?
Post by: rutht22000 on Sunday 07 April 19 20:05 BST (UK)
On the David Trelfer military papers you mentioned earlier it says that he deserted, but I can't make out the date. Every other date on the page is written clearly  >:(

I think I'm going soft in the head...what page is that on the papers themselves?  Can't see it  :(
Title: Re: What Was Staff Sergeant Alfred Moss’ Wife Edith’s Maiden Name?
Post by: JenB on Sunday 07 April 19 20:08 BST (UK)
On the David Trelfer military papers you mentioned earlier it says that he deserted, but I can't make out the date. Every other date on the page is written clearly  >:(

I think I'm going soft in the head...what page is that on the papers themselves?  Can't see it  :(

The page with his name on is only half of the record click on the right hand arrow and you’ll see the rest of the page.
Title: Re: What Was Staff Sergeant Alfred Moss’ Wife Edith’s Maiden Name?
Post by: rutht22000 on Sunday 07 April 19 20:20 BST (UK)
On the David Trelfer military papers you mentioned earlier it says that he deserted, but I can't make out the date. Every other date on the page is written clearly  >:(

I think I'm going soft in the head...what page is that on the papers themselves?  Can't see it  :(

The page with his name on is only half of the record click on the right hand arrow and you’ll see the rest of the page.

 ;D  I am thick....

Looks like he attests 28 November 1884 with the 97th and then deserts on 9 September 1886 at Chatham, Kent and goes to the Hussars on 18 September 1886. Quick worker!  ;D

Still doesn't get us far with the Court Martial in 1885 though....

As far as I can see the 97th formed part of the West Kent Regiment which might explain why he was down with Court Martial (I keep typing Martian... ;D) at West Kent in 1885
Title: Re: What Was Staff Sergeant Alfred Moss’ Wife Edith’s Maiden Name?
Post by: Ladyhawk on Monday 08 April 19 08:08 BST (UK)
You both have been busy again adding more info....... :)


Still doesn't get us far with the Court Martial in 1885 though....

As far as I can see the 97th formed part of the West Kent Regiment which might explain why he was down with Court Martial (I keep typing Martian... ;D) at West Kent in 1885

David Trelfer
Court or Trial Date:   26 Jan 1885
Court or Trial Place:   Maidstone
Regiment:   W. Kent
Reference Number:   WO 86/34

Looking at National Archives this is what it says Series WO 86, all pieces

“District Courts Martial registers, Home and Abroad from the Judge Advocate General’s Office   

Name, rank, regiment, place of trial, nature of charge and sentence for each prisoner   

You can search for records at Anc* but images of the records are exclusive to Fold3 (£)
1829-1979”

You can have a free trial but have to add your card details (then you need to cancel after free trial)

Perhaps someone reading this might have access and is able to provide the details  :)
Title: Re: What Was Staff Sergeant Alfred Moss’ Wife Edith’s Maiden Name?
Post by: ChrissieL on Monday 08 April 19 12:01 BST (UK)
Just been reading through this very interesting thread.  The Rootschatters are brilliant!  Amazing detective work. Well done

Chris
Title: Re: What Was Staff Sergeant Alfred Moss’ Wife Edith’s Maiden Name?
Post by: trish1120 on Monday 08 April 19 13:48 BST (UK)
Well done all what a chase ;D