RootsChat.Com
Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Glamorganshire => Topic started by: Clansman68 on Wednesday 31 July 19 13:22 BST (UK)
-
Hi all, I am trying to close a few gaps in my family history on my Mum's side (Williams).
Like many iron workers from the Valleys, my ancestors (Williams, Davies, Taylor) migrated to Middlesbrough in the 1850 - 1860 period. They continued to work as Finers, Puddlers, Hammermen etc. in Middlesbrough right up to my Grandad George Williams, who although officially a welder / boiler maker, was also very good at working iron and making wrought iron gates, fences and other items.
My Great-Great-Great Grandad John Williams married Esther Davies on 3rd July 1841 in the Parish Church of Merthyr Tydfil (not sure which church that is?), but both are shown as residing in Dowlais. John's father is shown as Henry Williams a Labourer and Esther's father is shown as Evan Davies a Preacher (Can't find anything about Evan Davies being a preacher in Dowlais?).
I can't locate an 1841 census record for either family, so have no information on the names of the mothers of John and Esther, which makes it difficult to find marriage and birth records.
I have a census record for John and Esther Williams for 1851 where they are shown as living in Aberystruth. The record also states that the entire family was born in Cardiganshire.
My Grandad and Great Uncle Ernie often told me that John Williams walked from Dowlais to Middlesbrough to find a job and have a better life and that once he got established he sent a cart to collect the family. My Great Auntie Margaret recently told me this story again, so its a bit of a family legend,
I can't find a census record for 1861, (Would be great if someone could help!) and the 1871 and 1881 census shows them living in Middlesbrough. The birth years for John and Esther differ but are usually in the 1817-1818 range for John and 1818-1821 range for Esther.
Also the 1871 census just states Wales as place of birth for all family members, but the 1881 census states Carmarthenshire for John and Esther and Glamorganshire / Dowlais for some of their children and one grandchild.
So I am looking for any information on John and Esther's parentage, birth records, marriages etc, and 1841 census please. Also the 1861 census record, although I'm beginning to think they may have missed the 1861 census?
The Taylor connection is that Evan Williams, John and Esther's son, married a widow Selina / Celina Matthews in Middlesbrough her maiden name was Taylor and her father was John Taylor a Puddler from Dowlais born 1799 to Benjamin and Mary Taylor.
The really strange thing is that Selina is consistently shown as being born in FRANCE, usually in places that don't exist: Hasville, Rasville, Rasville Fronde???
I just don't understand how this happened, as in the 1851 census John, living in Llanwenarth, is shown as born in Dowlais, his wife Jane born in Plymouth Glamorganshire (which is in Penarth I believe?) and the other 3 children of which 2 are older and 1 youner than Selina born in Monmouthshire.
Does anyone know how to track down a British Citizen's birth record from France for 1842?
I realise I've thrown a lot at you, but I've hit a brick wall with all of this so I'm hoping someone is better educated on the Valley Ironworker families than me. Always happy to reciprocate, as I'm a keen researcher!
Thanks and kind regards to all!
-
Esther's father is shown as Evan Davies a Preacher (Can't find anything about Evan Davies being a preacher in Dowlais?).
Just a thought but Evan may already have died before the 1841 census so is not to be found.
Any baptisms for baby Esther with father Evan, appreciate Welsh names are not easy!
-
Possible
Esther Davies bap 3 Sep 1820
LLanarth Cardigan
father Evan
mother Elizabeth
-
A few immediate thoughts. The parish church in Merthyr at the time would have been what is now known as the Old Parish Church, St Tyfils. The present building was built in 1894, replacing the previous one built in 1808.
A nineteenth century Welsh iron worker having a child born in France is entirely possible. Grace's Guide says "Iron Puddling was a skill developed in Britain, and puddlers were in great demand on the Continent in the early 19thC." See under 'Other Workers' here:
https://www.gracesguide.co.uk/Expatriate_British_Engineers_in_the_Industrial_Revolution
With iron working connections in mind, it is possible that someone saying they were born in Plymouth, Glamorgan, might have meant the area near the Plymouth Ironworks, Merthyr Tydfil. The ironworks were so dominant in the area that sometimes people would name them as their birthplace rather than the parish.
Drosybont
-
Thanks Drosybont that's really helpful :)
-
Thanks Millipede. I don't thinks Esther's father was dead, as the marriage certificate, which I have, does not say deceased. All other marriage certificates I have where the father was already dead have (Deceased) written under the name.
I'll have a look at the record you've flagged up! Thanks :-)
-
Thanks Millipede. I don't thinks Esther's father was dead, as the marriage certificate, which I have, does not say deceased. All other marriage certificates I have where the father was already dead have (Deceased) written under the name.
I'll have a look at the record you've flagged up! Thanks :-)
You are lucky then. :)
Information about fathers on marriage certificates is not reliable. The form does not ask whether he is dead or alive just what his occupation was. Some fathers were invented to cover illegitimacy, this information would not have to be proved.
-
Large parts of the 1861 census are missing, that could be why you can't locate them
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01l0i/
-
Thanks rosie99 that might explain it!
-
I have browsed the marriages of this parish for all of 1841 and none have deceased mentioned against as father and I am quite sure it would apply to some of them. I was looking to see if there was any further mention of Esthers father but no Preachers I am afraid.
You say that neither Esther or John are in Dowlais in 1841 census which was taken on 6th June 1841 -they married on 3rd July 'after banns' so they moved very quickly into the area to be there 3 weeks before they married.
-
Hi rosie99,
Thanks for your ongoing interest!
It's not necessarily a fact that John Williams and Esther Davies aren't in Dowlais / during the 1841 census, it is more a case of me not being able to locate them. Unfortunately, John Williams, Henry Williams, Esther Davies and Evan Davies are fairly common names.
As I've previously mentioned, this is further frustrated by the inconsistency of where John and Esther are shown as being born in census records (Wales, Cardiganshire, Carmarthanshire etc.) and the missing 1861 census.
What I do know, is that John Williams was a Finer and sometimes a Labourer at the Ironworks.
I found one single John Williams of the correct age recorded as working as a Labourer at the Nantyglo Ironworks, Aberystruth in the 1841 census and then in 1851, John, Esther, Evan (my Great-Great-Grandad) and their other children Ann, Henry and Elizabeth are all shown as living in Aberystruth and John is working as a Finer at the Ironworks there.
In the 1871 census John, Esther, Evan, Elizabeth and 2 more children David and Margaret are living in Middlesbrough and John is shown as an Ironworker and Evan as a Puddler the family all shown as born in Wales.
On 16th September 1871, Evan Williams married Selina Matthews a widow (nee Taylor) in Middlesbrough. He is shown as a Puddler and his father John Williams a a Refiner at the Ironworks.
In the 1881 census, John, Esther, David and now Ann and 4 grandchildren Sarah, Esther, Polly and Ruth are living in Middlesbrough. John and David are shown as general labourers. John and Esther are shown as born in Carmarthanshire and David, Ann (now married and called Davies) and Sarah all born in Dowlais and Esther, Polly and Ruth born in Middlesbrough.
So John is shown as a Finer on his marriage certificate, to Esther, on 3rd July 1841 in Dowlais / Merthyr Tydfil, also on Evan's birth certificate on 9th May 1841 where Evan is shown as born in Dowlais with parents John Williams a Finer and Esther Williams (formerly Davies).
Also Evan, David and Ann are all recorded on certificates and some census records as being born in Dowlais so between 1841 and 1851 at least 3 if not 5 of their children were born in Dowlais.
Insofar as Evan Davies being a Preacher is concerned, I am wondering if that is how he wanted to be recorded? Perhaps he was a part-time or a Lay Preacher?
The plot thickens!