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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Cork => Topic started by: SsGn on Sunday 04 August 19 18:02 BST (UK)
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Hi everyone,
I have hit a brick wall with finding the family of my 5th great grandfather Timothy Horan.
The last I am able to find is he was born around 1750 and apparently married a Catherine Cahill. I can only find one marriage for two people with the same name and that was 1853 however Timothy died in 1827 so obviously not the same people.
I have a document of his son also called Timothy born in 1778 and it says he from Rosscarbery,But I have been unable to find any records of any of them in that area.
I would be so grateful for any help here.
Many Thanks in Advance
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Nothing in Church Registers for him to 1830..
Baptism, Marriage and Burial results for Horan of from ? to 1830
Area - CORK & ROSS (RC) , Parish/Church/Congregation - ROSSALETTIRI & KILKERAUNMOR (ROSCARBERY & LISSEVARD) http://www.rootschat.com/links/01o58/
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Marriage results for Timothy Horan from ? to 1830
Displaying results 1 - 8 of 8. http://www.rootschat.com/links/01o59/
on
https://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/
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Hi Hallmark,
He died in Portsmouth in England in 1827.
I assume he was born in Ireland around 1750 as he states he is from Rosscarbery.
I would say married around 1770 but his son was born in England in 1778
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Yes the search was for up to 1830 anywhere which would have included 1770 from the Registers that are on https://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/ which includes ROSSALETTIRI & KILKERAUNMOR (ROSCARBERY & LISSEVARD)
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/en/church-records/about/what-church-records-are-available-online
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Baptism results for Timothy Horan anywhere from the Registers that are on https://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/ which includes ROSSALETTIRI & KILKERAUNMOR (ROSCARBERY & LISSEVARD) from ? to 1830
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01o5a/
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Roscarberry registers only start 1814 so hence I looked to see if marriage was elsewhere as Brides normally marry in their parish!
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https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/0093 Roscarberry
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So no sign of him at all :o ?
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Not within the Registers that are on https://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/ !
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Strange .... And this is all of Ireland ?
I have found a Tmothy born 1741 in London but his wife was Elizabeth ,
Everyone on Ancestry has him married to Catherine Cahill.
I know people just copy but its come from somewhere
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I presumed they were R.C. ! Hence R.C registers!
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Strange .... And this is all of Ireland ?
I have found a Tmothy born 1741 in London but his wife was Elizabeth ,
Everyone on Ancestry has him married to Catherine Cahill.
I know people just copy but its come from somewhere
Without Sources it's about as useful as a paper bag to carry water!
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Ancestry shows several births with parents Timothy Horan and Catherine Cahill but no other information except film number. Source is ‘Ireland Select Births and Baptisms’.
These seem to be the ones from Family Search - all around 1860s
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01o5b/
I have seen ‘Rathmore, Kerry’ in at least one tree re your Timothy which is mentioned in the above records.
As you say, people ‘just copy’.
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Hallmark yes they must have been RC because it says the son also Tomothy was RC but his wife Hannah was Anglican
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Hi Heywood,
The Rathmore Kerry Marriage is 1853 .
My Timothy died in 1827
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The likes of this Search might get them but are useless for sandra G...
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So how do I research further in Ireland if theres no records? :(
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Hi Heywood,
The Rathmore Kerry Marriage is 1853 .
My Timothy died in 1827
That is my point.
For example, a tree shows Timothy Horan b 1778 Rosscarbery, died 1827 Portsmouth.
Parents Timothy and Catherine Cahill.
It also has a baptism 1873, Rathmore for the same man. :-\
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The likes of this Search might get them but are useless for sandra G...
I am trying to illustrate where Catherine Cahill has presumably been used in those trees where Sandra says ‘everyone in Ancestry’ has the information and it must come from somewhere.’
Sandra accepts that some people ‘just copy’.
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Definately Heywood !! they have copied this and not looked into the facts they already have he died in 1827 .
The Timothy you have seen is the son born in 1778 but he was born in Portsmouth its was his father in Rosscabery.
There must be an Irish connection somewhere with the name Horan and my DNA says 25% Irish
All very confusing.
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.
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Are there any records for 1750 and before Anywhere?
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You have a document of his son also called Timothy born in 1778 and it says he from Rosscarbery... what document?
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Its Says Timothy Senior is of Roscarbery.This is the one I cannot find.
Timothy Junior was born in England in 1778. Cannot find a birth for this Timothy either,
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Hmmm...so they had a Family Crest??
Have you tried to check up on when they got it?
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I wouldn't have a clue where to start for that ,
I have found this
Timothy Horan, Sr
BIRTH 1750
County Cork, Ireland
DEATH unknown
Portsea, Portsmouth Unitary Authority, Hampshire, England
BURIAL Unknown
MEMORIAL ID 154760108 · View Source
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Grrrrr..... nothing
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It's hard work isnt it haha.
The Find a grave post says hes born in Cork
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Hi Heywood,
The Rathmore Kerry Marriage is 1853 .
My Timothy died in 1827
That is my point.
For example, a tree shows Timothy Horan b 1778 Rosscarbery, died 1827 Portsmouth.
Parents Timothy and Catherine Cahill.
It also has a baptism 1873, Rathmore for the same man. :-\
;D ;D What did he drink??
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It's hard work isnt it haha.
The Find a grave post says hes born in Cork
Not really...
The problem is Timothy was RC but his wife Hannah was Anglican, so where would they have Married?
With a Family Crest/Pedigree there MIGHT be a Marriage Agreement, more so due to mixed Religion, BUT normally from Bride's family to Groom's. (Grantor to Grantee)
These (attached) are, e,g, Horan to... 1730's for example! Wills/Deeds/Marriage Agreements, etc. Will look later/tomorrow to see if any mention Roscarberry if no one beats me to it!
But Who to Hogan ?? grrrr!
These are later 1700's https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSMQ-K9YH-F?i=775&cat=185720
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I have the marriage for Timothy and Hannah . This was in Portsmouth.
I have no birth for this Timothy though,
And Its his father Timothy Senior that is the one there is no trace of born around 1750
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I have been looking through the link you sent for the Irish National Library and Cant see anything there
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I have the marriage for Timothy and Hannah . This was in Portsmouth.
I have no birth for this Timothy though,
And Its his father Timothy Senior that is the one there is no trace of born around 1750
Yes, I know.
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Have you tried https://www.rootschat.com/forum/heraldry/ with that document?
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I have been looking through the link you sent for the Irish National Library and Cant see anything there
That is why I said.... Grrrrr..... nothing
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Strange .... And this is all of Ireland ?
Not strange at all. This is Ireland in the 18th century.
If they were Catholics that meant they belonged to a denomination which was discriminated against.
Irish Toolkit
https://www.irish-genealogy-toolkit.com
Genealogy > Irish Church Records
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I wouldn't have a clue where to start for that ,
I have found this
Timothy Horan, Sr
BIRTH 1750
County Cork, Ireland
DEATH unknown
Portsea, Portsmouth Unitary Authority, Hampshire, England
BURIAL Unknown
MEMORIAL ID 154760108 · View Source
What is the source for this? What does the source actually say?
I think "Portsmouth Unitary Authority" is a modern unit of local government.
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Re. reply #24 coat of arms and accompanying biographical information.
Where did this come from?
Summary of biographical information about Timothy Horan Junior:
"Timothy Horan, son of Timothy Horan of Rosscarbery, born about 1778, settled at Portsmouth, married in Portsea Parish Church … 1808, Hannah Evans, …. he died about 1826, a member of the Roman Branch of the church, the family were brought up Anglican, buried Kingston Churchyard, Portsea "
Questions:
Where was Timothy Horan junior born about 1778 - Ireland, England or elsewhere?
Is there any evidence that a member of the Horan family was in Portsmouth before 1808?
Have you found a grave or burial record for the Horan family at Kingston church? What names & dates? If a gravestone, who else is named on the stone?
Have you considered naval and military records? Timothy was present in Portsmouth in 1808 which was during the war against Napoleon's France. Rosscarbery is also a coastal town. The islands in Cork City's harbour, were heavily fortified against a French invasion. There would have been much naval and military traffic between Portsmouth and Cork and other Irish ports. Catholics were allowed to join the army after the Catholic Relief Acts of late 18thC. Soldiering was popular with young Irishmen. A high proportion of the British Army were Irish.
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Thank You Maiden Stone,
According to Find a grave Timothy born about 1778 was born in Portsmouth, After reading your last post I am wondering if his father Timothy was born over here, I have found one born in 1741 in London then a Than a Timothy born in 1720 in Gosport Maybe this is the correct route.
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If Timothy Horan senior was Catholic and born mid-18th century or earlier into a Catholic family in Ireland or England, the chances are that no record of his baptism was made.
The chances for the baptism of Timothy junior, born in last quarter of 18th century in either country having been recorded increase slightly but even if the record once existed it may not have survived. If the baptism happened in England and if the register survives, it may not have been transcribed and may not be easily accessible.
Catholic priests were operating outside the law for most of 18th century. A priest who felt secure (from arrest) and settled might have decided to begin keeping a register. Ireland, England and Scotland were mission countries for the Catholic Church.
Catholic Relief Acts: Ireland 1774, 1778, 1782, 1793; England 1778, 1791.
Some of my ancestors lived in an area in Lancashire, England in which a large proportion (a third) of people were Catholic from the Reformation onwards. Gentry were R.C. A chaplain began keeping a register in 1750s. My 4x great-grandma, born 1765 is missing from it. Her eldest brother isn't in the register either because he was born in 1752 before it began. Registers of most Catholic missions nearby began later, although they also had large Catholic populations of longstanding.
Some Catholic chapels were wrecked by mobs at the time of the Jacobite Rebellion 1745 and a priest in Lancashire was arrested and died in prison. There were further attacks on chapels by mobs opposed to the Catholic Relief Acts in late 18thC.
A contributor to your other thread has found a Timothy Horan in the Navy.
Horan is a common surname in a part of Mayo where some of my family lived. Also in Galway.
One puzzlement - Timothy junior had many sons but not one called Timothy after father and grandfather?
Mind you, eldest son of my GGF had 6 sons, none were named for their grandfather.
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Hi Yes quite a few son's and as you say no Timothy which have been carried through the generations, it seems.
I have missed the thread where someone found him in the Navy not sure how they have done that. Yes they were Catholics as this is stated when Timothy born in 1778 married Hannah who was Anglican,
I have found a number of Timothy born in england which matches the year they were born but I cannot find anything in Ireland or England for Timothy born in 1741 who apparently is from Rosscarbery. but not trace of him there .
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It's your thread on the heraldry board.
I looked for a Timothy Horan in military records 1790-1810 on FindMyPast. 1 hit 1803-1810 in British Royal Navy Allotment Declaration 1795-1852. I don't have a subscription so can't look at the record. I don't know if it's the same one as the other person found.
Also on FindMyPast under Births, Marriages & Deaths & Burials:
Burial at Portsea St. Mary 1827, transcribed as Timothy HERRAN. Estimated year of birth presumably taken from age at death.
Marriages Portsea 1808, transcribed as Timothy HORN and Timothy HORNE.
Also burial Portsea 1806 Robert HORN.
Marriage licence 1808 Portsea, Timothy HORNE. His presumed year of birth was 1787; his recorded age may have been 21 or "21 and upwards" so in either case he might have been any age over 21. (Have you found a marriage licence for Timothy for the 1808 marriage? Being R.C. he was unlikely to attend church for banns.)
Timothy born 1720 in Gosport (reply #38) is transcribed as Timothy Horne on FindMyPast.
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I have hit a brick wall with finding the family of my 5th great grandfather Timothy HoranThe last I am able to find is he was born around 1750 and apparently married a Catherine Cahill. I can only find one marriage for two people with the same name and that was 1853 however Timothy died in 1827 so obviously not the same people.
I have a document of his son also called Timothy born in 1778 and it says he from Rosscarbery,
Hi Hallmark,
He died in Portsmouth in England in 1827.
I assume he was born in Ireland around 1750 as he states he is from Rosscarbery.
I would say married around 1770 but his son was born in England in 1778
Clarification.
As I understand it, the Timothy who died in 1827 was Timothy Horan junior, who was born about 1778, not Timothy Horan senior who is said to have been born around 1750.
The source which mentions Rosscarbery said that Timothy the father was "of Rosscarbery". This doesn't necessarily mean that he, Timothy senior, was born there. "Of Rosscarbery" may mean that it was the place he regarded as home, a place where he had spent part of his life. He may have been born in Rosscarbery or he may not.
I've seen no mention of Rosscarbery as birthplace of Timothy junior. The wording accompanying the crest is inconclusive regarding Timothy junior's birthplace. It says only that he settled in Portsmouth. It doesn't say where he was born.
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Hmmm...so they had a Family Crest??
Have you tried to check up on when they got it?
It's attached to Timothy Horan's memorial page on "Find a Grave".
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/133696901/timothy-horan#view-photo=107916237
This is where it says Timothy Horan junior was born in Portsmouth.
Death 20th Nov. 1827. Gives year of birth as 1778.
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I wouldn't have a clue where to start for that ,
I have found this
Timothy Horan, Sr
BIRTH 1750
County Cork, Ireland
DEATH unknown
Portsea, Portsmouth Unitary Authority, Hampshire, England
BURIAL Unknown
MEMORIAL ID 154760108 · View Source
This is the information on "Find a Grave" website. https://findagrave.com
I'm puzzled as to why it says "unknown" for death and burial yet has Portsea, Portsmouth under "Death". Does it mean that he died in Portsea, year unknown or that he was buried in an unknown site in Portsea, year unknown, or both, or neither? Could it mean that his name was included on Timothy junior's tombstone?
Extra information on Find a Grave under Timothy Horan (1750):
"Captain of a vessel that traded between Cork and Portsmouth."
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More from Find a Grave. https://www.findagrave.com
Mary Hannah Evans (1786-1858), wife of Timothy Horan. The photograph attached to her may be a page from a family bible. Precise timings of births of children to the minute.
At least 3 sons made their livings from the sea. Edmund was mariner and policeman. He was in Rio de Janeiro in 1839; his picture is an autographed book to a niece. Thomas was a mariner. Joseph was a shipowner and shipbroker. George joined the East India company and was killed with his wife and 2 children in the Sepoy Mutiny 1857.
Horan memorial pages maintained by a person with the username "sandhills".
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Hello Maiden Stone, Sorry I have only just seen all this no notification for it.
Yes i believe they all worked at sea. Timothy senior being captain at one stage.
More from Find a Grave. https://www.findagrave.com
Mary Hannah Evans (1786-1858), wife of Timothy Horan. The photograph attached to her may be a page from a family bible. Precise timings of births of children to the minute.
At least 3 sons made their livings from the sea. Edmund was mariner and policeman. He was in Rio de Janeiro in 1839; his picture is an autographed book to a niece. Thomas was a mariner. Joseph was a shipowner and shipbroker. George joined the East India company and was killed with his wife and 2 children in the Sepoy Mutiny 1857.Where did you find this please?
Also today saw some one on Ancestry has a John Horan born in Ireland 1812 sone of Timothy and Hannah. Does anyone have any information on this please?
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Replies 46 & 47. The information is on Find a Grave. https://findagrave.com
I put in surname Horan and place Hampshire. Then clicked on each name in the family and found information about some of them.
The page with dates and times of births of children of Timothy & Mary Ellen doesn't state place of birth.
According to information on Find a Grave, John was born in England. Have you found baptisms of all the children?
As Timothy senior was a sailor he may have met and married his wife anywhere.
Newspapers which covered port towns contained lists of arrivals and departures of ships, cargoes, captains and destination.
Have you looked for wills?
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ANY UPDATES ON TIMOTHY HORAN AND CATHERINE CAHILL?
I have had a DNA match with two people who are descendants of Horans in Castleisland.
Nobody has mentioned this place on Ancestry everyone has said Rosscarberry still,
I really think he just lived there at the time and sailed from there.
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Evening all !! Back to this Horan family.
Where can I find a copy of the marriage of Timothy Horan,Horn,Horne to Hannah Evans which would include the occupation of both fathers.Portsea 4th September 1808?
TIA :)
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Here is a transcript of the marriage
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:6NX6-M87C
It looks as though you can access the record through Find My Past.
If you are near a Family Search centre/library, you may also be able to see the record there
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QLYW-5MM7
The record will not give any parent details though
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Hampshire Allegations for Marriage Licences Vol 1 (ancestry)
Timothy Horne of Portsmouth, Tailor, 21 yrs and Hannah Evans, 21 yrs of Portsea
at P (Portsmouth) 4 Sept 1808.
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Thank you all, No luck with the occupation apart from the younger of the Timothy's being a tailor and not a sailor. I am now wondering if the first Timothy Horan was actually the one baptised in London in 1841 and he may have married twice Catherine Cahill then Rose Maher. I cannot find a death for Catherine anywhere in England or Ireland. I have read on an Ancestry tree that the name Cahill may have been anglinised to Charles, not sure about that,Catherine Bastable (Cahill) Charles has also been mentioned as a possibility. I am just totaly confused by this family. But I am pretty sure there is a connection with Castleisland somewhere.
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I think you would need to see the original to determine whether it is ‘Tailor’ or ‘Sailor’.
Often the letter formation is misleading.
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Hi Heywood, From what I understand it was the original document
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Oh, I thought you meant the one I posted, sorry.