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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Yorkshire (North Riding) => Topic started by: PaulineJ on Tuesday 08 October 19 12:41 BST (UK)
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BROWN, JANE QUANTICK 1862 D Quarter in GUISBROUGH Volume 09D Page 427
BROWN, JOHN ARTHUR QUANTICK 1864 M Quarter in GUISBROUGH Volume 09D Page 450
BROWN, CHARLES QUANTICK 1866 S Quarter in GUISBOROUGH Volume 09D Page 431
BROWN, HENRY QUANTICK 1868 S Quarter in GUISBROUGH Volume 09D Page 462
BROWN, ELIZABETH QUANTICK 1870 S Quarter in GUISBROUGH Volume 09D Page 461
I think this is the chap in 1891:
https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=uki1891&indiv=try&h=1254262
& John Arthur in '81 (Dad is awol)
https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=uki1881&indiv=try&h=26526711
& Head of house in '71
https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=uki1871&indiv=try&h=28685591
Elizabeth (nee Quantick) b Devon.
Just Can't find a suitable marriage, and bug-eyed from trying).
IF this john brown is "mine", Parents are David Brown (a Painter) and Ann (nee Morris).
Without that marriage, there's no way of proving a connection.
Thanks, Pauline
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Looks like John Brown senior is in prison in Yorkshire in 1881
Piece:4870 Folio:64 Page Number:22
If Elizabeth was a widow she would have married John in her late husband's surname but her actual maiden name would be on children's birth cert. Is that a possibility?
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Same thought here about it being a second marriage for Elizabeth
In 1871 Elizabeth is 45 and eldest child is 8
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Already been down the widow route.
Got nowhere tracing the possibles
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But there was an Elizabeth Quantick baptised on 26 Mar 1826 at Mamhead, Devon d/ o Thomas and Eleanor. Could be her
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That one isn't with her father in 1841,
Cant find her in any other census either.
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Possibility in 1841
Piece 265 Book 25 Folio 12 Page 19
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Logically she should be found in 1861 but I can't find an Eliz** b Ashcombe or just Devon matching her profile
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Perhaps they couldn't marry because John was already married.
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The John Brown at South Bank was a gunner and driver in the Royal Artillery in the 1851 census and it mentions on his discharge papers he is living in South Bank Yorks. service number 2306.
He was a sergeant from 9 sep 1857 to 2 June 1870, being a bombadier, court martialled for something reduced to gunner, then promoted back to bombardier, then corporal and finally sergeant.
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Don't know if this might be the same Elizabeth Quantick
Eliza QUANTIC single 28 born Ashcombe Devon Occupation Nursery Maid
Cowley More, Tiverton, Devon - Head Lucy Short
1851c HO107 1889 Folio 38 Page 1
Perhaps not as there's also an Eliza Quantic on 1841 census
Mamhead Cottage, Mamhead, St Thomas, Devon
Eliza QUANTIC Age 15
others same household
Agnes, Henry, Sarah, Thos, Mary, Willm last names Michelmore, Waydon, Mosey, Walters
HO107 Piece 220 Folio 6 Page 7
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There is a public tree on Anc*y for a
John BROWN born 2 Dec 1831 Woolwich, Kent died 14 Mar 1897 South Bank (near Middlesbrough), Yorkshire
parents named as
David BROWN 1802 & Ann nee MORRIS
wife
Elizabeth QUANTRICK (1824-1890)
No marriage details, no baptisms details, censuses mentioned 1891/81/71/51 and link to
UK, Royal Hospital Chelsea Pensioner Admissions and Discharges, 1715-1925 (14 Jun 1870)
only details of one child
Henry BROWN
Born 27 AUG 1868 South Bank (near Middlesbrough), Yorkshire
Died 7 MAR 1935 Eston, Yorkshire
(picture of Henry and his wife Margaret nee Robson (1868-1941) & daughter Olive (1905-1987)
PaulineJ - you mention John's possible father as David (Painter) have added details of 1841 census
Edward Street, Woolwich, Greenwich, London & Kent
David BROWN 40 occ Painter
Ann Brown 45
David Brown 13
John Brown 9
Thomas Brown 6
George Brown 3
Betsy MORRIS 35
Betsy Morris 4
HO107 Piece 492 Folio 23A Page 3
Same as everyone else not found a marriage for John Brown to Elizabeth Quantrick ??? to confirm father's names occupations etc......
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Think I had everything bar the hospital admission.
Just nothing yet to match that particular John Brown to the one which is the son of David &Ann. Think my next step is to search for documents with a birthdate..
That'll be tedious, given the name and location.
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So, the tree on ancestry has a pension service record for the woolwich/ NYorks chap.
Says he signed up under age,
Dates 25 may 1846 to 24 may 1849 under age
25 may 1849 to 15 dec 1852 (date of promotion) 3y, 205 days
So do we conclude that he was born 24/25 May 1831, and that's why his pension calculation has the cutoff?
(In which case, he's not the child of David and Ann)
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So do we conclude that he was born 24/25 May 1831, and that's why his pension calculation has the cutoff?
(In which case, he's not the child of David and Ann)
John Brown, son of David and Ann, baptized Woolwich, St Mary Magdalene on 7 Jan 1835, and reporting a birthdate of 2 Dec 1831
In the 1841 Census officially dated 6 June, David & Ann's son John is aged 9, and by all accounts would turn 10 years in December.
The full service record of this Sgt John Brown, #2306 Royal Artillery
Completed Service to Discharge 14 June 1870
Discharged age 39 to reside at : Southbank, near Middlesbrough, Yorkshire
Attested/signed on on 25 May 1846 at Woolwich, aged 15 years,
(That address, agrees with later records 1871 onward & birthplaces of children, of your John. It seems very certain this R.A sergeant is your John? The father's occupation on baptisms o[ to 1870 would be key)
The Army record intimates that they (the Army) agree John turned 18 on or about 25 May 1831.
However - it's not stated as a birth date, and a very plausible scenario is:
He was only 14 when he signed up, and fudged his age by a few months. The army have accepted this (no birth cert to prove otherwise) then later have taken his coming-of-age to count from 25 May 1846, the date he signed on at declared age 15 - plus 3 - to the 25 May 1849 when they accept he is now 18 (even though he really wasn't quite)
As to a marriage to Elizabeth.
I agree, she could have been a widow when she married John. Either way, in accepting John is the Army man, it could be an Army marriage. He served 5½ years in Bermuda.
So many scenarios arise from this...
* When was he in Bermuda?
* When he was 'At home', where was he? Ireland, England/Wales, Scotland, Channel Islands?
* Could she have been prior married to an Army Man and widowed (putting her in Bermuda or wherever John was?)
Cheers
AMBLY
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Don't know if this might be the same Elizabeth Quantick
Eliza QUANTIC single 28 born Ashcombe Devon Occupation Nursery Maid
Cowley More, Tiverton, Devon - Head Lucy Short
1851c HO107 1889 Folio 38 Page 1
Perhaps not as there's also an Eliza Quantic on 1841 census
Mamhead Cottage, Mamhead, St Thomas, Devon
Eliza QUANTIC Age 15
others same household
Agnes, Henry, Sarah, Thos, Mary, Willm last names Michelmore, Waydon, Mosey, Walters
HO107 Piece 220 Folio 6 Page 7
The above could indeed very easily be Elizabeth QUANTICK the daughter of Thomas and Eleanor, though? The 1841 Census with the Michelmore family, she is a F.S. (Female servant in the household).
And as you say, Elizabeth QUANTICK the daughter of Thomas and Eleanor - is not in her father's household in 1841. Nor is she with him 1851. Nor with him in 1861. I followed that family a bit, partly looking for marriages of siblings to see witness names (hoping for an Elizabeth :) but no luck ). Here's what I jotted down anyway - you may have all/some of this, so for reference:
MARRIAGE 1819:
Thomas Quantick married Eleanor Rugg, 19 Oct 1819, Mamhead
CENSUS 1841: Ashcombe
Piece 219- Book 1- Folio 6- P 7
Thomas QUANTIC, 50, Ag Lab, with (in order of listing:)
Mary 20, Ellen 8, George 8, Harriet 6, Andrew 1
CENSUS 1851: Ashcombe
HO107- Piece 1867- Folio 663 -P 3
Thomas QUANTIC, 40, widower, Farm Labourer (Thomas' age is way out - he is about 62 here)
Dau: Ellen 18, unm
Son: Andrew 11,
And next door:
Head: Henry QUANTIC 36, Farm Labourer
Wife: Jane 35
Dau: Ann 13
Son: Elias 10
Son: Joseph 6
Visitor: Eliza'th KENTSBEAR? 23, Serv't, b Crepiton
MARRIAGE 1851: At Ashcombe
On 31 Dec, Ellen Quantic, dau of Thomas Quantick, of Ashcombe, married George Gilpin.
Witness: James Quantick, Harriet Bolt.
CENSUS 1861: Ashcombe, Labourers Cottage:
RG 9; Piece: 1392; Folio: 150; Page: 2;
Head: George GILPIN 30, ag lab
Wife: Ellen 28,
Children: James 9, George 8, Miriam 6, Henry 4, Fred'k 10mth,
Father: Thomas QUANTICK 72, Widower, Ag Lab
DEATH 1865:
Thomas QUANTICK age 76 years, Abode: Ashcombe
Buried Ashcombe, 10th October 1865.
Cheers
AMBLY
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Assuming John the soldier who lived in South Bank was born in may and didn't lie about his age
1841 census taken on 1 June 1841
John Brown born approx 1831/2 living in Woolwich
John Brown s/o David and Ann age 9
John Brown s/o Joseph and Sarah age 10
John (9) is consistent with a birthday in December 1831
John (10) is consistent with a birthday in May 1831
David (father of John 9) is a painter. Neighbours mix of trades, no army.
Joseph (father of John 10) is a labourer. Several of neighbours are in the army, implying area may be close to barracks
1851 census taken on 30 March 1851
Both Johns would be listed as 19 as neither would have had their birthday by end March. Both born Woolwich
John 19 lodger with Bakerfield family occupation painter and glazier Piece 1589 Folio 64 Page 9
John 19 gunner and driver with 10th Bn Royal Artillery
Given age differences and occupation of John the lodger/ painter, I think he is the son of David and Ann, and John the soldier is the son of Joseph and Sarah
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John Brown, son of David and Ann, baptized Woolwich, St Mary Magdalene on 7 Jan 1835, and reporting a birthdate of 2 Dec 1831
In the 1841 Census officially dated 6 June, David & Ann's son John is aged 9, and by all accounts would turn 10 years in December.
Have added a screenshot of 1830 baptism of John Brown father David (painter) born 22 MARY
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Looks more like he was born in May.
added: The vicar (Rev H Fraser) writes March out in full
The other John Brown b Dec 1831 baptised when 4 years old, parents David and Ann, but father shoemaker. Bapt same day as younger brother Thomas Charles Brown b 18 June 1834. Abode Warwick Street.
So it looks like we have 3 x John Brown and 2 x David and Ann.
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Maybe one David and Ann who moved about and had several occupations
Two more baptisms in Woolwich, St Mary Magdelene
Both on 27 Aug 1828
David Thomas William Brown born 30 June s/o David and Ann Brown abode Chapel Row, occupation mariner - Royal Navy.
Esther Elizabeth Ann Brown born 3 October 1822 d/o David and Ann Brown, abode and occupation as above
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Burial, St MM Woolwich
John Brown age 13 months buried 3 July 1831, abode Church Street.
That would fit the one born in May 1830, then David and Ann had a replacement John in December that year.
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Looks more like he was born in May.
I agree - have edited my post :)
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David Brown married Ann Morris on 20 Sept 1821 at St Nicholas , Plumstead, by banns, both otp, status not recorded, David signed, Ann made mark.
Witnesses Elizabeth Morris (signed) and H Manning (signed).
No occupation given for David, but that is rare on pre-1837 records
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Maybe one David and Ann who moved about and had several occupations
Two more baptisms in Woolwich, St Mary Magdelene
Both on 27 Aug 1828
David Thomas William Brown born 30 June s/o David and Ann Brown abode Chapel Row, occupation mariner - Royal Navy.
Esther Elizabeth Ann Brown born 3 October 1822 d/o David and Ann Brown, abode and occupation as above
Found another baptism for Esther Elizabeth Brown
At Wesleyan chapel Woolwich
Esther Elizabeth daughter of David Brown of the parish of Woolwich, shoemaker and of Ann his wife,
born 3rd of October 1822 and christened the 8th of December 1822.
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On census David says he was born abt 1800 in Dover
Possible baptism
David Brown son of John Brown and Esther his wife of the parish of St James, Dover born 4 Dec 1800 and baptised 8th March 1801. Non conformist - Countess of Huntingdon's Connexion.
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Given age differences and occupation of John the lodger/ painter, I think he is the son of David and Ann, and John the soldier is the son of Joseph and Sarah
back to the 3 Johns theory.
Found Joseph and Sarah in 1851, they have their son John living with them. He's a coal Porter. So he's not John the soldier.
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I've messaged the tree owner, and asked how specifically he thought John was the John born to David & Ann.
I'll update if I ever get a reply.
UPDATE: He reckons that David & Ann were named as parents on the attestation in 1846.
We shall wait and see..... ;D. In the meantime, I'll go do some reading on armed forces records.
Pauline