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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Carmarthenshire => Topic started by: scottphillips94 on Tuesday 22 October 19 14:03 BST (UK)
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Hi Guys, recently started my family tree and currently have over 200 ancestors confimed.
I'm really struggling on my paternal side, I can get to my 2nd great grandfather who I also have information for his brother and mother, however I cant find any record for his father.
I have his birth certificate and that says father unknown, however I wonder if anyone could help me search through parish records or baptismal records to see if anyone was named on the certificates there as I would really like to explore that side further
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Welcome to Rootschat
If he was illegitimate it’s unlikely any fathers name will be on a baptismal record (if one can be found)
Did he name a father on his marriage cert? Sometimes illegitimate children met their biological fathers later in life but it’s rare. If his marriage cert shows a father with the same surname then he has made one up. Quite a common practice with illegitimate children so they appeared “respectable”
What was his name and birthdate and what was his mothers name etc from the birth cert?
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If you are after parish records do you mean the parish with the modern spelling of Llanelly near Abergavenny? Documentation from before the mid 1960s will also use this spelling for Llanelli near Swansea.
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thanks for your reply's
I don't have access to full membership on my ancestry.com account to view any documents really however I do have the information I can provide if someone is willing to help me research.
The person/s in question.....
''John Phillips'' (1861-1945) Llanelly - married Sarah Jane Bowen (1865-1937)
Brother = ''David Phillips'' D.O.B 1865- unknown death
Mother = Mary Phillips D.O.B 1830 Llanelly (Mary had a brother William Phillips D.O.B 1828
now we cant find a father/husband for Mary however we know her two sons john and david and also her brother, i'm wondering if someone can help me locate the missing husband of mary/father of john and david as that's my paternal line stopped there if we cant locate him.
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I thinl Chilternbirder is right. It would cut down on the research if you could state which Llanelly. The Abergavenny one is in Monmouthshire, the other one is in Carmarthenshire.
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its the Carmarthenshire Llanelly, that's where I currently reside and most of my family have for years and it does say for John that he is from Llanelly,
where would be best to look to find a possible father ? Where could I find a birth certificate for him ?
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Have you got a library ticket ? Carmarthenshire libraries have Ancestry and FindmyPast on their computers - free to use for upto 1 hour. I usually wait ( I live in Carmarthenshire ) for a few mintues and then log in again for a bit of extra time !
There seems to be quite a lot of Sarah Jane Bowens on Family Search, plus some John Phillips, just at the moment I haven`t time to follow it up for you.
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I have access to Ancestry and Find My Past but don’t have a full account so unable to view the census or registration documents etc
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As mentioned on your other post you can find census and BMD info for free on Family Search. You may also be able to find some baptismal records as well.
However - it is unlikely you will find a fathers name on any possible baptismal record. If his marriage cert does not show a fathers name then that's it
Ancestry access is free at many libraries - check with your local one
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is this the family in question?
1871 Godir, Berwick RG10/5464 folio 100 pg 33
William Phillip head mar 68 labourer in tin plate works
Elisabeth wife b. Pembrey
Mary dau unm 40 domestic servant
John grandson 9
David grandson 6
all born Llanelly except Elisabeth
1881 Goder, Berwick RG11/5371 folio 53 pg 40
Elizabeth Phillips head widow 81 housekeeper b. Pembrey
William son unm 53 engine driver
Mary dau unm 51
John son 19 engine driver
David son 16 coal miner
all born Llanelly except Elizabeth
1891 Godir Cottage RG12/4492 folio 35 pg 5
Elisebeth Phillips head widow 91 retired lady
William son unm 63 engine driver
Mary dau unm 61domestic servant
David nephew 26 coal miner
all born Berwick, Llanelly
1901 2 Stradey Houses, Berwick RG13/5086 folio 147 pg 22
David Phillips head mar 36 coal miner
Mary wife 36
Willie son 8
Thomas son 7
David son 4
Bessie dau 2
William uncle unm 73 living on own means
Mary aunt 71 living on own means
all born Llanelly
David appears to have died before the 1911 census
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X7NT-7GL
This death registration is a match for age
David Phillips 42 march qtr 1907 Llanelly vol 11a pg 730
and he was killed in the Cwmfelin Mine
https://newspapers.library.wales/view/3433309/3433319/231/
https://newspapers.library.wales/view/4174419/4174422/78/
https://newspapers.library.wales/view/3443972/3443976/95/
Possible baptisms at St Elli for
William Phillip 9 march 1828 son of William, labourer, & Elizabeth
Mary Phillip 26 Aug 1831 dau of William, labourer, & Elizabeth
Marriage in Pembrey parish church 18 January 1825 for William Phillip & Elizabeth David, both by mark, witnesses John Phillip & Richard Williams both signed, Richard Williams witnessed several marriages on the page so possibly the parish clerk.
No baptism showing for John or David. Not finding parish marriages for either. Where did John marry?
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That looks spot on to me, quite scary that photo of David Phillips in the newspaper is strikingly similar looking to myself and my dad in the face !!
i have a copy of john’s marriage certificate however there is a line through the father section,
we have requested a copy of his birth certificate which is due next week hopefully a father is named there otherwise I think we are out of luck.
Here’s a photo of where I’m at for that side of the family, any further background help would be appreciated as it seems for some reason some of the ancestors are “Phillip” without the S on the end
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can I ask again where the marriage took place? Was it in the established church, non-conformist or the registry office? Also, who were the witnesses?
It's unlikely that you will find the father of John & David documented. Don't worry about the final s on the surname, it's a common change for the period. Earlier records show without the final s, but it appears around the mid 19th century.
Possible death regs
Mary Phillips 71 june qtr 1901 Llanelly vol 11a pg 577
or
Mary Phillips 71 march qtr 1902 Llanelly vol 11a pg 675
William Phillips 74 sept qtr 1901 Llanelly vol 11a pg 609
Elizabeth Phillips 92 march qtr 1892 Llanelly vol 11a pg 678
William Phillips 69 june qtr 1871 Llanelly vol 11a pg 481
Finishing off the census records
1841 Godir HO107/1379/2 folio 25 pg 11
William Phillip 35 coalshifter
Elizabeth 40
William 13
Mary 10
david 7
Ann 4
Elizabeth 2
Phillip 2 months
all born in county
1851 Godyr HO107/2468 folio 111 pg 21
William Phillip head mar 49 coal miner
Elizabeth wife 51 b. Pembre
William son 23 coal miner
Mary dau 20
David son 17 coal miner
Anne dau 14
Elizabeth dau 12
Phillip son 10
Samuel son 5
all born Llanelly except Elizabeth
1861 Godir RG9/4110 folio 72 pg 15
William Phillips head mar 59 coal miner
Elizabeth wife 61 b. Pembrey
William son 33 engine driver at colliery
Mary dau 31
Phillips son 20 coal miner
Samuel son 16 coal miner
all born Llanelly except Elizabeth
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birth registrations for Phillip Phillip jun qtr 1841 Llanelly vol 26 pg 605 gives mmn as Davies as does the one for Samuel sept qtr 1845 vol 26 pg 580 so the 1825 marriage looks correct. David/Davies same change as Phillip/Phillips.
Possible baptism in Pembrey for Elizabeth David 4 May 1800 daughter of David & Mary.
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you really are a massive help
anything further back for William Phillip 1803-1871 - I think possibly his parents were Phillip Phillip 1782-1866 llanelly and mother Margaret Stephen 1785-1848 born in Llanfabon ?
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also John Phillips married Sarah Jane Bowen in the Llanelly Registry, ill have to check the certificate later to find out the witnesses
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ok, registry office marriage and I'm not finding baptisms for children after William & Mary, this could point to a move to non-conformity.
Earlier baptisms for Llanelli aren't online so I haven't found a baptism for William around 1802. If, and it can be a big if, the family were following traditional naming patterns, you could presume that William's parents were William & Ann.
You will need to visit the archives to check the parish records.
;)
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some new information,
I requested the birth certificate for ''John Phillips'' unfortunately no father named on the birth certificate however to our surprise the mothers name is down as Elizabeth aged 61 ?
my family have always told me that John's mother was Mary ?
To me it sounds like due to the fact she didn't have a husband the family could have been embarrassed and named Mary's mother as the mother for John ? I doubt she would have had a child at aged 61 back then
I'm going to request the birth certificate for John's brother ''David'' this week to see if the same information is present on his certificate
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the age wouldn't be noted on a birth certificate. Does the number refer to an amendment? Could you attach a scan of that part of the cert? Don't attach the whole thing, it's not allowed.
It could be a case of saving face or possibly confusion if Elizabeth registered the birth.
By the way, this post should be on the county board, not Wales Resources which is for people offering information. I'll notify the mods.
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ok great ill try and upload an image of some of the cert
ok i'm new to this so unsure of the rules etc