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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Lanarkshire => Topic started by: SWH1 on Friday 25 October 19 12:05 BST (UK)
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Hi,
Again this is all part of my WW1 projects. Gordon Gordon-Smith was a an author and journalist during WW1. He spent much of his time in Serbia WW1. I have much of his works. What I can't find is a DOB and DOD. I know he studied journalism at Glasgow uni in 1887. But that is all I have. Interestingly, I am also looking to find out about Margot Gordon-Smith who also spent time in Serbia 1919. I would think they are brother and sister?
If you can help please do. I had a look on SP but drew a blank.
Thank you for looking
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Are we possibly looking at a birth pre-1855
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Are we possibly looking at a birth pre-1855
I would of thought late 1800's as he seems by his books to have lived into the 1950's
Cheers
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Nothing on him via Google apart from his books but there is this entry which you have probably already seen & discounted
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C1092868?descriptiontype=Full&ref=WO+339/38974
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Could Margot have been his wife?
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Nothing on him via Google apart from his books but there is this entry which you have probably already seen & discounted
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C1092868?descriptiontype=Full&ref=WO+339/38974
I am surprised more is not on line. A very interesting life.
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Could Margot have been his wife?
Its possible.
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I know he studied journalism at Glasgow uni in 1887.
Have you asked Glasgow University archivist what records they have on him?
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Is this him? :-\
Gordon-Smith, Gordon
Military Attaché, Yugoslavian Legation in Washington; Born: 1871; in: Glasgow, Scotland; Address: The Dupont Circle, Washington D.C., U.S.A.; Father: Gordon Gordon-Smith, lawyer and magistrate of the city of Glasgow; Mother: Elisabeth Rae; Spouce: Lilian Lee Cooper, 1921; Education: Glasgow Academy, and University
http://whoswho.dreyblatt.de/BioFileG.HTML
"He is a war correspondent of "New York Tribune" and "Manchester Guardian". He was first on the French and Italian fronts and was then with the Serbian army in 1915; made the retreat through Albania and was on the Salonica front for 7 months. He was naturalized a Yugoslavian in 1932."
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Is this him? :-\
Gordon-Smith, Gordon
Military Attaché, Yugoslavian Legation in Washington; Born: 1871; in: Glasgow, Scotland; Address: The Dupont Circle, Washington D.C., U.S.A.; Father: Gordon Gordon-Smith, lawyer and magistrate of the city of Glasgow; Mother: Elisabeth Rae; Spouce: Lilian Lee Cooper, 1921; Education: Glasgow Academy, and University
http://whoswho.dreyblatt.de/BioFileG.HTML
"He is a war correspondent of "New York Tribune" and "Manchester Guardian". He was first on the French and Italian fronts and was then with the Serbian army in 1915; made the retreat through Albania and was on the Salonica front for 7 months. He was naturalized a Yugoslavian in 1932."
This is him!!! Fantastic.
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I know he studied journalism at Glasgow uni in 1887.
Have you asked Glasgow University archivist what records they have on him?
Its something I will follow up. cheers
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I'll bet The Guardian (successor to the Manchester Guardian) could tell you something about him.....
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A Gordon Gordon Smith arrived in New York in 1920. On the SS Rotterdam. Going to Serbian Legation, Washington. Says born in London.
Two images
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-C9T4-212B?i=382&cc=1368704
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Gordon Gordon-Smith, born Scotland, and wife Lillian in Washington in 1930 US census
with image
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XMKL-W8M
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Gordon Gordon-Smith and wife Lillian in Washington in 1930 US census
with image
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XMKL-W8M
I really appreciate the digging. Its all relevant and useful. I need to head back to work, fingers crossed Margot is a relative.
Thank you all.
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FamilySearch indexes the birth of Gordon Smith, father Gordon Smith, mother Elizabeth Rae, in Glasgow on 9 October 1863. Not 1871.
Also Margaret Jane Mure Smith, born 31 October 1865 in Govan, who could be Margo(t).
1881 Census: 3 Belgrave Terrace, Govan
Gordon Smith Jr Son (Head) 21 Student Of Arts Glasgow Univ
Jessie Boure Smith 15
Margaret Jane Muir Smith 15
Rae Osborne Smith Son 13
Dalziel Smith Son 11
Norman Smith Son 9
Elizabeth Rae Smith 8
Marion Dalziel Smith Daughter 8
Randolph Smith Son 6
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His age is certainly varying on those different records ;D
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Marriage
RAE ELIZABETH
SMITH GORDON 1861
573/1 87 Paisley High Church
Sorry I haven't time to look for Gordon Jnr's birth but hopefully the area may help?
Annie
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FamilySearch indexes the birth of Gordon Smith, father Gordon Smith, mother Elizabeth Rae, in Glasgow on 9 October 1863. Not 1871.
Also Margaret Jane Mure Smith, born 31 October 1865 in Govan, who could be Margo(t).
1881 Census: 3 Belgrave Terrace, Govan
Gordon Smith Jr Son (Head) 21 Student Of Arts Glasgow Univ
Jessie Boure Smith 15
Margaret Jane Muir Smith 15
Rae Osborne Smith Son 13
Dalziel Smith Son 11
Norman Smith Son 9
Elizabeth Rae Smith 8
Marion Dalziel Smith Daughter 8
Randolph Smith Son 6
That could well be her.
Great find.
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The other children match the rest of the Smith/Rae family, with occasional spelling variations.
Interesting that Gordon is said to be 21 in 1881, implying a birth date on 1869/1870. It seems that the variability of his date of birth started early on!
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Parents' burial details here https://nl.billiongraves.com/grave/Gordon-Smith/22748691 or if easier, also here www.findagrave.com/memorial/178263894/gordon-smith
Possible will & testament entry on SP:
Gordon Smith
23/2/1884
Writer, Glasgow, d. 02/12/1883 at Abbotsville, Prestwick, testate
Will
Glasgow Sheriff Court Wills
SC36/51/87
Wonder when surname went double barrelled.
Monica
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From Forfarian's find must be this one;
SMITH GORDON 1863
644/6 725 Blythswood
Annie
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Parents' burial details here https://nl.billiongraves.com/grave/Gordon-Smith/22748691 or if easier, also here www.findagrave.com/memorial/178263894/gordon-smith
Possible will & testament entry on SP:
Gordon Smith
23/2/1884
Writer, Glasgow, d. 02/12/1883 at Abbotsville, Prestwick, testate
Will
Glasgow Sheriff Court Wills
SC36/51/87
Wonder when surname went double barrelled.
Monica
Great find Monica. If only Gordon and Margot had been on the headstone.. I would just love to tie them together as brother and sister. I am convinced they are. With Gordon being in Serbia 1915 and Margot working at an orphanage in Serbia in 1919.
Thanks to everyone for pitching in. Brilliant.
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There is a Margot Marjory Cecilia Gordon-Smith on the Nursing Registers gives her address as
Waterside Uplawmoor Renfrewshire ..This is the address of Randolph Gordon - Smith brother of Gordon..This address is also mentioned when Gordon Gordon - Smith travels in and out of the UK
Not seeing a record for Margot on Scotland's People
Rosie
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There is a Margot Marjory Cecilia Gordon-Smith on the Nursing Registers gives her address as
Waterside Uplawmoor Renfrewshire ..This is the address of Randolph Gordon - Smith brother of Gordon..This address is also mentioned when Gordon Gordon - Smith travels in and out of the UK
Not seeing a record for Margot on Scotland's People
Rosie
Rosie17, That is an incredible find. :)
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There is a Margot Marjory Cecilia Gordon-Smith on the Nursing Registers gives her address as
Waterside Uplawmoor Renfrewshire ..This is the address of Randolph Gordon - Smith brother of Gordon..This address is also mentioned when Gordon Gordon - Smith travels in and out of the UK
Not seeing a record for Margot on Scotland's People
Rosie
Rosie17, Does it say where she was working?
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Just the address as posted she appears to have been a midwife date of enrolment 8/1/1933
Rosie
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That is a great find, Rosie :)
It is Margot you are trying to pin down isn't it?
Monica
Added: House still there I think www.s1homes.com/Houses-for-sale/2019101620565807.shtml Randolph it seems died there in 1961.
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Just a thought here. Wondering Rosie whether the Margot you have found is different to the sister of Randolph and Gorgon?
Sister was named Margaret Jane Muir Gordon born 1865 www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FQ7G-JFQ
So could Margot Marjory Cecilia Gordon-Smith be a niece?
Monica
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Margaret Jane Muir Smith was living with her brother in 1901:
Randolph Gordon Smith 26 Actuarial Clerk On Life Ass Office
Margaret J M Smith 35 sister
Elizabeth R Smith 28 sister
Marion D Smith 28 sister
Address: 257 W Campbell St, Glasgow/Blythswood
The sisters' occupations not clear on the transcription.
Monica
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There are photos aren't there for Margot Gordon Smith during her time at the orphanage www.rootschat.com/links/01ojj/
Ideas on her age? I am rubbish at guessing ages :P
Monica
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Yes Monica I would agree on this Margot not being his sister maybe she is a daughter of Randolph
Pity not finding anything else on her This address was used up till 1954 ...
Rosie
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I have just been looking and looking. Cannot get anything on her so far... :-\
Randolph never married.
Monica
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Same here Monica been going through some of the family trying to get a link with this Margot which is obviously not the one I found on the Nursing records ...Was wondering if she could have been a first wife of Gordon Gordon -Smith
Rosie
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On one of the passenger lists 1917 Gordon Gordon - Smith is listed as being a widow so maybe Margot was his wife
Rosie
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Randolph it seems died there in 1961.
And sister in 1940?
SMITH, MARGARET JANE M
Age 75
Year 1940
Ref 572/1 10
RD Neilston
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There is a thought...
He remarried c. 1920 as he shows as c.10yrs married to Lillian (Lee?) in 1930.
Not seen Gordon really in the censuses from 1891-1911 so far.
Monica
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Gordon single on the 1920 manifest (which said born London!)
Has a W in 1917
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-C9TF-GTKK?i=57&cc=1368704
SMITH.—On Feb. 4, 1940, very suddenly at Uplawmoor, MARGARET JANE MURE GORDON SMITH, eldest surviving daughter of the late Gordon Smith, writer, Glasgow.
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There is a thought...
He remarried c. 1920 as he shows as c.10yrs married to Lillian (Lee?) in 1930.
Not seen Gordon really in the censuses from 1891-1911 so far.
Monica
Yes seen that Monica says he was 23 years old on first marriage ..but where
Rosie
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A son, Gordon Smith (Jnr) son of Capt Gordon Gordon-Smith, Serbian Army. He died during WW1 in Belgium 1918. His address 22 Upper Westbourne Terrace, Middlesex.
www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/478898/gordon-smith,-/
www.janetandrichardsgenealogy.co.uk/Capt%20G%20Gordon-Smith.html
Monica
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Was wondering if she could have been a first wife of Gordon Gordon -Smith
Not if he was widowed in 1917.
Possible Lillian L Cooper in Washington in 1920, born Dist of Columbia
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33S7-9R63-2NC?i=8&cc=1488411
1900 with parents, both born Virginia
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-DTFS-Y19?cc=1325221
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Was wondering if she could have been a first wife of Gordon Gordon -Smith
Not if he was widowed in 1917.
Was referring to Margot Gordon Smith
Rosie
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Sorry I thought Margot was in Serbia in 1919.
I also thought she was Miss Margot Gordon Smith.
I shall butt out.
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Sorry I thought Margot was in Serbia in 1919.
I also thought she was Miss Margot Gordon Smith.
I shall butt out.
Sorry my mistake just read the first post with the date 1919 :-[ Time for bed
Rosie
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Its only a wee WW1 plaque on the wall of one of our local churches- But what stories could it tell ?
The research into the fallen of WW1 for the district continues to unearth outstanding stories of Bravery.
Second Lieutenant, British RFC Pilot, Norman Gordon-Smith of Uplawmoor-Neilston Parish
Norman was born Berlin, Germany on the 31st of Aug 1893, To British parents, The Son of Gordon Gordon-Smith and Elisabeth Gordon-Smith (nee Petrie).He was educated at Glasgow Academy High School.
Norman Gordon-Smith served in the Highland Light Infantry, he transferred from them to the newly formed Royal Flying Corps which was born from various groups involved in experimental air sections in 1912, when the development of aviation created a need for an official military air Corps.....
.....Both British Lieutenants were accorded full military honours at their funerals in Oostcamp Churchyard and a high tribute was paid by the enemy to the two British airmen for their bravery in the battle. The Germans marked out a well decorated grave for both men with The tail end of their aeroplane being used as the original grave marker. Later they where moved to Cement House. Cemetery and buried side by side- just as they had died.
Lest We Forget
Matt
Neilston War Memorial Association
(Normans Brother, Gordon Gordon-Smith was also killed during WW1 on the 24th October 1918 )
www.facebook.com/241406065911329/posts/its-only-a-wee-ww1-plaque-on-the-wall-of-one-of-our-local-churches-but-what-stor/2381141605271087/
www.findagrave.com/memorial/11156373/norman-gordon-smith
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If Margot was Gordon Gordon-Smith's daughter, she very likely was also born abroad given the lack of info on her in the UK.
Could she also have remained in Serbia? There is no reference to a marriage or death for her in the UK (that I can see!). Gordon Gordon-Smith became a Yugoslavian citizen in the early 1930s didn't he? http://whoswho.dreyblatt.de/BioFileG.HTML
Cannot see a UK marriage for Gordon Gordon-Smith to Elizabeth Petrie either!
Like Rosie, eyes crossed now and time for bed ;)
Monica
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SMITH.—On Feb. 4, 1940, very suddenly at Uplawmoor, MARGARET JANE MURE GORDON SMITH, eldest surviving daughter of the late Gordon Smith, writer, Glasgow.
Missed this from earlier. Great to have her death confirmed ;)
Monica
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I have pondered over this for a while wondering whether or not to post these but I feel the surname may be more than just a coincidence?
I haven't tried to work out anything more as I can't find enough evidence yet to connect them although others may be successful...
Marriage - Gerald Walter Gordon-Smith to Lilian Priscilla Vivian 01 Feb 1907 Durban, Natal, South Africa http://www.rootschat.com/links/01ojl/
Info. on anc. tree gives DoD as 23 Jan 1911 (no place of death given)...
Son Gerald Vivian Gordon-smith born 1907 Witwater, Western Cape, S/Africa died 1931 (anc. tree)
Death Notice 12 Jul 1931 aged 23 yrs https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QPCC-YH4G (further details on image)
Death Gerald Gordon-Smith b 15 Nov 1907 died Dec Qtr 1987 Merton, Surrey, England
Vol 14 Pg 900 https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVZW-MH15
An entry here of a possibly living relative to the immediate above in the Kent area, I'd noted Gordon Gordon-Smith had been in The Queen's Own (Royal West Kent Regiment)
https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/officers/ubJcE7hKUiJkDLy8-EmRaeMsEZ4/appointments
Gerald A Gordon-Smith born 02 Oct 1929 (P.o.B not given), addresses between 1993 & 2000 include Maryland, Fairfax, Virginia, Miami, Florida, United States & Apo, U.S. Armed Forces - Europe" with possible relatives names included
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KPDT-DDC
Annie
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Good finds Monica such a shame losing two son's ..you could be right about Margot being his daughter ..pity not finding anything else ??? Like you not seeing a marriage or a death for Elizabeth Petrie
Rosie
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Everyone of you are incredible at researching. Just fantastic information. Thank you again everyone.
I spent yesterday gleaning the books I have on Gordon Gordon-Smith but he gives no clues to as to his personal life. All the other women serving at the orphanage were members of the Scottish Women's Hospitals or from other relief missions. So given Gordon's adventures in Serbia its very possible Margot came out with him. I have traced most of the other women from the orphanage and again no clues in any of the text I have. Most of the women at the orphanage that I have researched were very independent minded. Most were around the age of around fifty. Most belonged the Suffragettes and four I know of were imprisoned 1912-1913 due to being active in the Suffragettes. The reason I am so keen to find out more is that I am travelling to Bajina Basta for Evelina Haverfields commemoration this coming March.
Many thanks
Alan
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It is also possible with Gordon being a captain in the Yugoslav army in 1917 he took his daughter with him via Salonika. (Salonika being the only way into Serbia 1917) Its also plausible that Margot worked in the many Hospital missions in Salonika and moved into Serbia late 1918 after the Serbs regained control. Its at that point she could have met up with some of the other women who were in Belgrade. Pure speculation I know.
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Just found the marriage 28/10/1891 Berlin Germany
Gordon Smith birth date 9/10/1863 Glasgow
His parents Gordon Smith Elizabeth Rae
Spouse Elizabeth Petrie birth date 10/11/1865
Think her father was Robert Petrie mother ? McDowell Ireland
Rosie
Added found the birth for Elizabeth Petrie 10/11/1865
Belfast Antrim Ireland
Father Robert Petrie
Mother Annie McDowell
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Gordon GS Snr is certainly forgetfull about his age isn't he! He said he was 23 when he first married, on his 1930 US census entry.
Good to have his marriage details confirmed, Rosie :)
Son Gordon, who died in WW1 1918, was born on 31 Aug 1892 in Berlin. Birth registered as George Petrie Smith.
Monica
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That's all I can find Monica not having much luck with anything else ???
Rosie
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Rosie, just added to previous post son Gordon's birth details in Berlin. Like you struggling to find much more :-\
Monica
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Hi
I am Rachel Gordon-Smith, and Gordon is my Great Grandfather. I would like to know why you are looking into him.
Btw.Margot was his sister, not his wife.
Best wishes
Rachel
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Welcome to RootChat, Rachel.
If you look at the first post in the thread https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=820615.0 you'll see the reason.
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Rachel again. There were a lot of family names repeated in successive generations and when I think about it, if the Margot you first mention is of a similar age to my Great Grandfather, then she is either his sister or his cousin. Any Margot you find in the family, who was much younger than him, will be his daughter, my Great Aunt, who was one of the younger children, along with my Grandfather, Robert. Gordon worked in Paris for several years, and his first wife and kids lived there with him. The first wife, died of a broken heart at the end of WW1 as Gordon had disappeared from the family and was presumed dead. After she died, my Great Uncle Randolph took Robert and Margot under his wing and they moved to Scotland when my Grandfather and his sister Margot were of primary school age. It would surprise me very much if Margot had been a nurse, as she was quite delicate. She later moved to Largs. After Great Uncle Randolph died in 1961, my Grandfather and his wife and kids, including my Dad, moved to the house in Uplawmoor and lived there for a while before it was later sold.
I should also tell you, that no-one in the family, from Great Uncle Randolph to my Grandad or Great Aunt, had any idea until he died in the late 1940s, that Gordon had remained alive since WW1. He died in a bomb explosion at a hotel on one of the mediteranean islands near the former Yugoslavia, where he had gone to sort out the plight of some displaced people. My Grandfather only found out, when two CIA officials came to his house in Belfast, to tell him the news.
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Margaret Jane Muir Smith was living with her brother in 1901:
Randolph Gordon Smith 26 Actuarial Clerk On Life Ass Office
Margaret J M Smith 35 sister
Elizabeth R Smith 28 sister
Marion D Smith 28 sister
Address: 257 W Campbell St, Glasgow/Blythswood
The sisters' occupations not clear on the transcription.
Monica
Coming to this very late but I thought you’d like to know that this record says that Margaret, Elizabeth and Marion are “Partners in St Vincent Typewriting Office”. I found a listing in the Post Office Directory here: https://digital.nls.uk/directories/browse/archive/85318864
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Rachel again. There were a lot of family names repeated in successive generations and when I think about it, if the Margot you first mention is of a similar age to my Great Grandfather, then she is either his sister or his cousin. Any Margot you find in the family, who was much younger than him, will be his daughter, my Great Aunt, who was one of the younger children, along with my Grandfather, Robert. Gordon worked in Paris for several years, and his first wife and kids lived there with him. The first wife, died of a broken heart at the end of WW1 as Gordon had disappeared from the family and was presumed dead. After she died, my Great Uncle Randolph took Robert and Margot under his wing and they moved to Scotland when my Grandfather and his sister Margot were of primary school age. It would surprise me very much if Margot had been a nurse, as she was quite delicate. She later moved to Largs. After Great Uncle Randolph died in 1961, my Grandfather and his wife and kids, including my Dad, moved to the house in Uplawmoor and lived there for a while before it was later sold.
I should also tell you, that no-one in the family, from Great Uncle Randolph to my Grandad or Great Aunt, had any idea until he died in the late 1940s, that Gordon had remained alive since WW1. He died in a bomb explosion at a hotel on one of the mediteranean islands near the former Yugoslavia, where he had gone to sort out the plight of some displaced people. My Grandfather only found out, when two CIA officials came to his house in Belfast, to tell him the news.
Hi Rachel
I stumbled across this thread as I’ve been researching this branch of my family tree. We are 4th cousins, Hugh Smith (grandfather of the said Gordon Gordon-Smith) and Margaret Muir were my 3rd great grandparents - and presumably yours too!
Thanks for sharing all this fascinating information. It sounds like someone needs to write a book about Gordon Gordon-Smith, he has certainly lived a fascinating life.
I’m sure I have a memory of a BBC Scotland reporter called Gordon-Smith (can’t remember his first name) - if I’m right, is/was he a relation of yours/ours?
Wishing you all the best and hoping you see this after so long.
Alison
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"He is a war correspondent of "New York Tribune" and "Manchester Guardian". He was first on the French and Italian fronts and was then with the Serbian army in 1915; made the retreat through Albania and was on the Salonica front for 7 months. He was naturalized a Yugoslavian in 1932."
Like others, struggling to find much but I thought this was interesting for family history...
https://sivenas.wordpress.com/2017/02/19/the-almopia-decauville-train/
Annie
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There’s a nice little CV here on the sample page of the book:
https://www.jstor.org/stable/20662385?seq=1
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Oops, I mean article, not book.
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Rachel again. There were a lot of family names repeated in successive generations and when I think about it, if the Margot you first mention is of a similar age to my Great Grandfather, then she is either his sister or his cousin. Any Margot you find in the family, who was much younger than him, will be his daughter, my Great Aunt, who was one of the younger children, along with my Grandfather, Robert. Gordon worked in Paris for several years, and his first wife and kids lived there with him. The first wife, died of a broken heart at the end of WW1 as Gordon had disappeared from the family and was presumed dead. After she died, my Great Uncle Randolph took Robert and Margot under his wing and they moved to Scotland when my Grandfather and his sister Margot were of primary school age. It would surprise me very much if Margot had been a nurse, as she was quite delicate. She later moved to Largs. After Great Uncle Randolph died in 1961, my Grandfather and his wife and kids, including my Dad, moved to the house in Uplawmoor and lived there for a while before it was later sold.
I should also tell you, that no-one in the family, from Great Uncle Randolph to my Grandad or Great Aunt, had any idea until he died in the late 1940s, that Gordon had remained alive since WW1. He died in a bomb explosion at a hotel on one of the mediteranean islands near the former Yugoslavia, where he had gone to sort out the plight of some displaced people. My Grandfather only found out, when two CIA officials came to his house in Belfast, to tell him the news.
Hi Rachel
I stumbled across this thread as I’ve been researching this branch of my family tree. We are 4th cousins, Hugh Smith (grandfather of the said Gordon Gordon-Smith) and Margaret Muir were my 3rd great grandparents - and presumably yours too!
Thanks for sharing all this fascinating information. It sounds like someone needs to write a book about Gordon Gordon-Smith, he has certainly lived a fascinating life.
I’m sure I have a memory of a BBC Scotland reporter called Gordon-Smith (can’t remember his first name) - if I’m right, is/was he a relation of yours/ours?
Wishing you all the best and hoping you see this after so long.
Alison
Hi Alison
Sorry not to have been near this in a long time. I think you may mean W. Gordon-Smith and he is not atleast a direct relative of mine.
Thank you again for your message.
Rachel.