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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: Chicken Nugget on Saturday 23 November 19 21:35 GMT (UK)
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My Grandfather was a DEMS gunner in WW2. I am having a lot of trouble finding his service record. The main reason for this is that I would like to apply for the Arctic Star on behalf of my father as my grandfather served on the Arctic convoys. I know a couple of ships he served on and I have his service number but nothing much else. Can anyone tell me where i can find his service record?
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Welcome to rootschat!
DEM'S Gunners are always difficult to reseach not least because they could be Royal Navy or belong to one of the Royal Artillery Maritime Regiments. Several thousand Merchant Seamen were also trained as DEMS.
First we have to establish which service your Grandad served with.
Could you give us his his full name, date and place of birth together with his Service Number and the names of any ships he may have served on and we can take it from there.
Do you know if he received any Campaign medals?
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Hi Seaweed. His name was Allan Edward Turner. Service number JX227648. I think he joined 2/10/40. I do know he served on the SS Empire Lightning and I believe he served on the Duchess of Atholl when it was sunk, but survived. He was awarded the Italy Star, Atlantic Star and the 1939-1945 Star.
Many Thanks
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Hello and welcome, Seaweed has already stated that D.E.M.S are very difficult to research and that is very true.
Firstly, you need to obtain his service record from the MoD – that has got to be your starting point.
https://www.gov.uk/get-copy-military-service-records - cost would be £30.
You should complete the application form and also tell them he was a D.E.M.S. gunner and ask specifically for a search of his Pay and Victualing record – this is important as his military record will not mention any of the merchant ships he sailed on. P & V search will probably delay the return of his full record – or you may get a partial record with the remainder to follow - but it is the way to go. P & V searching is not fool proof however so it is good to have an alternative research plan. This alternative plan would involve the search of Merchant Navy Crew Agreements because we know that D.E.M.S. gunners signed the articles of agreement therefore they will be visible on Crew Agreements. The CA will usually, but not always, show his previous ship so you do need a bit of luck using this method. The most important and crucial thing though is you need to know the name of a ship to begin with and it would be best if that known ship was nearer the end of the war so that it gives you a chance to backtrack to the beginning. Ship sinkings are a negative factor when backtracking though as the logbook would have gone down with the ship and records were completed using shore-side information and only the bear minimum would be recorded.
I believe he was born about 1902? If so, I have also found him aboard EMPIRE LIGHTNING in 1943, and probably BRITISH CHARACTER in 1944 and the Norwegian GC BROVIG in 1945. He is noted as a deck hand in all but GC BROVIG where his rating is given as PO/GL [petty officer – gun layer] – he would be the senior military gunner aboard this ship.
Do you know which ship’s he served on while on Arctic Convoys? This is where the P & V would be very useful but if that fails you can resort to searching the known Crew Agreements.
Regards
Hugh
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Hello Hugh,
I was just about to contact you on this one. Beat me to it!
Chicken Nugget. Neither EMPIRE LIGHTNING or DUCHESS OF ATHOLL and the two vessels mentioned by Hugh were involved in Arctic Convoys.
It's important to get hold of his service records.
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Hi folk, my father was in the British Merchant Navy during the war, and was trained as a gunner. I have a lot of info on him. My wife's father, on the other hand, was a DEM. His name is George Fowler Taylor, born 27 June 1916. I have his service number (JX339236), a copy of his service certificates showing he did training at Glendower and Wellesley. His accounting base was President III. He joined Glendower as an OD on 13/7/42, and paid off in 1946 (can't read the month). He has the Atlantic and Pacific stars. I want to identify the merchant ships he was on. From forum posts, I think I need to get the next of kin to request pay records (as a starting point). However, does anyone have any other advice for me? Thanks in advance.
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Apart from the advice offered by Hugh (above) theres very little to add. Get hold of his Pay and Victualling record from the MOD.
Logbooks and crew agreements of British merchant vessels, for the period of WW2 are stored in the British National Archive, mainly in the series BT380 and BT381. http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/advanced-search
You cannot see the documents online and you would need to visit in person or appoint a researcher to look for you.
These records are catalogued by the ships official number. Names and official number can be viewed on this site.
http://www.crewlist.org.uk/#Data
Glendower was a seamanship training establishment at Pwllheli and Wellesley a DEMS training Establishment at Liverpool.
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thanks seaweed, that is most helpful. I'll go down the suggested track.
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My Father was a DEMS Gunner, Maritime Regiment Royal Artillery. I know he served on the Russian Convoys, and was torpedoed, once ship was towed to Murmansk, and all survived I believe, the second time.he was rescued. He suffered from PTS after, and didnt talk that much about it. I do have his service record, and a couple of pics onboard a ship, sitting by a Bofurs. His service record says See Maritime Card, so frustratingly does not mention Ships he served on. He had 1939-45 star (says PT11 98/44 6MRA, Atlantic Star, Africa Star,North Africa Clasp,Pacific Star,France and Germany Clasp. He is listed as survivor R.C.L.J.A, which I presume is something to do with Russian Convoys. I have just applied for his medal, Russian Convoy. Would love to know whip ships he was on, but seems hard to find that detail. Any help or ideas, so much appreciated :)
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Hi,
I Remember trying to work this out years ago but nothing concrete came of it. The thinking now is that it is a draft recognition code. Which changed frequently and doesn't actually mean anything. So you cannot be sure it has anything to do with the Russian Convoy.
I have been researching DEMS for years - they are difficult to research as you have found out. Their service at sea is contained within a maritime card. These are still with the MOD and are held in files WO 435 and WO 436 and are due to be transferred to TNA Kew with the next few years. Read this especially page 2 - http://ww2talk.com/index.php?threads/medal-award-query.91301/
You can also use MN crew agreements to find him although this does need a known ship to work with.
If you wish to give his name, date and place of birth (by private message if you prefer) I can have a check of some of my sources.
Regards
Hugh
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Thank you so much Hugh.
On his service records it shows George Henry Machardie. That is spelt in other places so differenty, MacHardie, MacHardie, MacHardy, Machardy, etc ;) ::)
D.O.B is 17.1.1920 Edinburgh
regards Linda
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Hi Linda,
I am sorry that he doesn’t appear in any of my sources on or offline. I don’t suppose you have any dates for him being at Murmansk or any information that may link to a ship?
For MRA gunners who survived the war, the key is the maritime card held in WO 435 and WO 436 and those files have not been released yet. So, I would suggest you contact the MOD again and ask if they could check if he has a maritime card. As we can’t identify a ship yet, it will be difficult without another lead.
Regards
Hugh
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Thank you once again Hugh.
I don't have any information, other than a couple of photos I can remember, but that my Mother threw away, and a couple of them were in tropical uniform, so may other posting before these RC. /H spoke about that russian convoys mostly, especially Murmansk, and Archangel, and obviously talk of his PTS, tied up with the fact that he had a real anxiety disorder for quite some time, was little and far between.
I have looked at hios service records several time, tryinf to see if there are any clues, but most helpfully, all postings seem to say Abroad, apart from a couple where it says see Maritime Card .
I will take your suggestion, and contact MOD. If I get response, I will let you know, it could help others.
Have been reading some books on men that served in those convoys, and it makes me shudder to think what many went through :(
Thank you again :)
Linda
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Hi Chicken, replying to you.
I sent for my Fathers Service Record firstly, via MOD, once I had that I applied to the address given,if you look up Russian Convoy medal, and how to apply
This is fleet airarm application, but you will find information is the same
https://www.fleetairarmoa.org/news/arctic-star-application
Good Luck
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Just to update the thread re some earlier information from Hugh Mac, TNA are now saying that the WO 435 series (Ship's cards) consists of 18 boxes containg 10,000 cards, and WO 436 (Medal cards) will be made up of 38 boxes, and the "Series is accruing" which I take mean it's a work in progress.
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Cheers Andy that is correct.
The problem for me has always been the release of Army records for D.E.M.S. MRA without attaching a maritime card and frustrations with the MOD as why some do and some don't.
Just to re-emphasise: maritime cards will only be for Army gunners. For Royal Navy D.E.M.S. Pay & Victualing ledgers will need to be searched by the MOD.
Merchant Navy Crew Agreements can also be used in searches for both and Army and Navy D.E.M.S gunners as they signed on as part of the ship's crew.
For Linda, did you manage to progress your search for G.H. MacHardie?
Regards
Hugh
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Hello Hugh, not so far. I am so cross, because when my Mother married again, she threw all Dads photos out, and although I have some pics of Dad onboard ships with the Guns, the ones I really wanted were some showing ship in port, with a massive hole in it, when it was blown up and I remember Dad saying it was is ship. It may have had identification o it. I was only young and didnt think to ask questions :(
So are you thinking the cards might be available? He was GH MacHardie, a Royal Artillery Gunner.
regards
Linda
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Hi Linda,
As Andy says the series is accruing so is a work in progress - I am sure he will have cards in there when they are processed so very much a watch this space or keep asking them.
Hugh
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thanks Hugh, I will keep asking. I dont want to give up, I keep seeing that ship in my mind, and think about how bad it must have been to be torpedoed in those icy waters.
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Hi Hmac,
Has there been any updates on DEMS gunners records. I applied to TNA earlier this year but no luck. I still don`t know wether he signed up to the army, MN of Marines. Any new advice?
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Hi Hmac,
Has there been any updates on DEMS gunners records. MN of Marines.Any new advice?
Hello,
There has been updates but not to RN DEMS, recent updates are the availability of Maritime Royal Artillery maritime cards which are held at TNA Kew.
Your grandfather was in the Royal Navy - his Official Number tells me that. Also, although the thread is quite old and you were the originator my advice from #4 actually still stands. For RN personnel you need to obtain that service record from the MOD - please note not TNA Kew. There is some confusion about records moving to Kew my understanding is that this concerns some army records but not RN at the moment so please get on to the MOD as per my #4. You can fill in the form online but I am not sure how long the wait will be.
https://www.gov.uk/get-copy-military-records-of-service/apply-for-the-records-of-a-deceased-serviceperson
They will probably do a search of his P & V record anyway but it will do no harm to ask in the form. Also mention he was a DEMS gunner.
Regards
Hugh
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Hi Hugh,
Thanks for the additional advice I will complete a request to the MOD.