RootsChat.Com
Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Topic started by: Fraser178 on Friday 13 December 19 22:52 GMT (UK)
-
Hey everyone,
I recently discovered the will/dative of my relative Roderick Fraser who died in Stirling in 1792. He left behind the grand old sum of £3 to his 2 year old son, Alexander and his wife Margaret Haggart.
This however was took by the Bank of Stirling as Roderick owed them £50 to which he was loaned the year before (4.7.1791).
Now my first question, can anybody find a corresponding burial for him? I have been unable to find anything thus far. Maybe he wasn't actually buried in Stirling? the name Roderick also seems a nightmare for transcribers.
Second question, Roderick was simply listed as a Labourer. Now £50 is roughly equivalent to a years wages for a skilled labourer. Could anyone have got a loan in those days or would he have had to have had some form of collateral or insurance?
I'm unsure of his age at death, you will probably stumble across my ancestry family tree where I have put his birth as sometime in the 1760s but this is a guess and not confirmed from any burials.
Any input is appreciated!
-
@ Fraser, assuming he was possibly engaged in the droving of cattle from the Highlands to Falkirk hence a debt to the bank. Roderick is popular Muir of Ord/Beauly area.
Skoosh.
-
@ Fraser, assuming he was possibly engaged in the droving of cattle from the Highlands to Falkirk hence a debt to the bank. Roderick is popular Muir of Ord/Beauly area.
Skoosh.
Interesting, Fraser is also a common surname near Beauly I believe.
I should also mention he was married in Kincardine by Doune, Perthshire (his Wife's parish I believe) and the marriage is also in the parish books of St Ninians, Stirling so he may have been in residence there?
His son was born in Stirling in 1791, of course this doesn't rule out the Cattle Droving he may have just relocated.
-
No death record for Roderick even though there are records on SP for Stirling 1727-1854
I note the two marriage records you mention to MARGARET HALKET and the birth of their son ALEXANDER, mother HAGART.
There are three possible birth/baptism records on SP, the last one looks promising?
FRASER RODERICK DONALD FRASER/JANNET FRASER 09/05/1755 Kilmuir Easter
FRASER RODERICK CHARLES FRASER OR UIRACH JANET MC KENZIE 09/04/1769 Killearnan
FRASER RODERICK ALEXANDER FRASER/ANNE DAWSON 07/01/1765 Inverness
Colin
-
Another possible Roderick.
FRASER RODRICK ALEXR. FRASER/ANN CHISHOLM 09/05/1763 Inverness
Colin
-
No death record for Roderick even though there are records on SP for Stirling 1727-1854
I note the two marriage records you mention to MARGARET HALKET and the birth of their son ALEXANDER, mother HAGART.
There are three possible birth/baptism records on SP, the last one looks promising?
FRASER RODERICK DONALD FRASER/JANNET FRASER 09/05/1755 Kilmuir Easter
FRASER RODERICK CHARLES FRASER OR UIRACH JANET MC KENZIE 09/04/1769 Killearnan
FRASER RODERICK ALEXANDER FRASER/ANNE DAWSON 07/01/1765 Inverness
Colin
I think you're correct with either one with Alexander as the father as it's the only name connection to go from (off the sons name).
I have had a Y-DNA match with a Fraser who claims to be from the Lovat Fraser branch so for it to be up near Inverness would make sense.
-
I recently discovered the will/dative of my relative Roderick Fraser who died in Stirling in 1792. He left behind the grand old sum of £3 to his 2 year old son, Alexander and his wife Margaret Haggart.
If it was a testament dative, it specifically means that he did not make a will. If he left a will, it is a testament testamentar. Testaments dative are always a disappointment because the only name you get, other than the deceased's, is that of the person to whom confirmation was granted. What does Roderick's testament say about that? Was confirmation granted to the bank, for instance?
Second question, Roderick was simply listed as a Labourer. Now £50 is roughly equivalent to a years wages for a skilled labourer.
According to the article on Stirling in the Statistical Account of Scotland, written in 1793 https://stataccscot.edina.ac.uk/static/statacc/dist/home , the wages of a labourer were 1s to 1s 2d a day, and a manservant £4 to £5 a year (plus his keep, of course). Allowing for Sundays and an occasional day off, a labourer would work over 300 days a year. At 1s to 1s 2d per day that would add up to between £15 and £17.50 per annum, so a loan of £50 would be about three times a labourer's annual earnings. I can't imagine a bank ever lending three times the borrower's income without some sort of security.
I should also mention he was married in Kincardine by Doune, Perthshire (his Wife's parish I believe) and the marriage is also in the parish books of St Ninians, Stirling so he may have been in residence there?
That is certainly the obvious inference. You need to look at the originals of both records to see what they say.
-
Thanks for the informative response with regards to the nature of datives. The will itself lists Alexander the defunct son as decerned executor but the defunct wife Margaret Haggart being given adminstrative rights (I mean Alexander was only one year old after all).
It's not the easiest to read then but it basically says she purposefully gives the money to the Bank of Stirling for Rodericks debt and then provides some small details such as the date of the loan and the name of the cashier who provided it.
As for the original records, Alexanders baptism simply provides parent names and baptism date (April 10th 1791) which is around 2 months before Roderick secured the loan (15th June 1791 as per the testament dative).
As for the parish registers for the marriage; Kincardine by doune we get 'Roderick Fraser ?? ???????? to Margaret Halket of this parish' I'm pretty sure it says 'St.Ninians' after Roderick but its too difficult to make out.
In St.Ninians we get 'Roderick Frazer St.Ninians to Margaret Halket Kincardine by Doune, married at Kincardine'
So we get no inference that Roderick is actually from St.Ninians just that he is resident there at time of marriage.
-
Thanks for the informative response with regards to the nature of datives. The will itself lists Alexander the defunct son as decerned executor
That's extraordinary - the whole point of being an executor is that you are actually capable of acting as one.
As for the parish registers for the marriage; Kincardine by doune we get 'Roderick Fraser ?? ???????? to Margaret Halket of this parish' I'm pretty sure it says 'St.Ninians' after Roderick but its too difficult to make out.
In St.Ninians we get 'Roderick Frazer St.Ninians to Margaret Halket Kincardine by Doune, married at Kincardine'
So we get no inference that Roderick is actually from St.Ninians just that he is resident there at time of marriage.
Yes, that's right. But it's not very enlightening, really.
-
The Highland trade in black cattle was run entirely on trust for centuries, most drovers were not at all well-heeled but obtained credit with a good name as security & dealt mostly in bills of exchange. It was a risky but lucrative business & bankruptcy not unknown. Prominent drovers could raise huge sums of money on their name alone, the greatest of them Cameron of Corriechoillie, a barefooted crofters son, started by trading a few goats & at one time apparently owned 60,000 sheep.
Skoosh.
-
Certainly. But the only actual occupation Fraser178 has mentioned is labourer. Lending to a plain landless labourer with no other assets would be a different matter from lending to a drover who would use the money to buy stock and recoup it quickly by selling the stock. So if he got a loan of three times a labourer's income, it does suggest that he was not a plain labourer, but an entrepreneur of some sort.
-
It is rather extraordinary I mean if you didn't know Alexander was one years old you'd probably believe he was an adult with that reference.
yeah that is true the parish marriages give us no real information sadly.
I do agree with your assessment that he was no normal labourer, I mean if he was cattle driver surely that would of been the occupation given?
So it looks like he either managed to sell them on some idea or he had family/friends who could act as insurance?
I have attached an image from the back of the dative, is a Cautioner the surety for loan?
-
I have attached an image from the back of the dative, is a Cautioner the surety for loan?
In the context of a testament dative I think it's more that he was a person who would ensure that the executry was properly carried out, which would include seeing that the loan was repaid but not being personally liable to pay it. But I may be wrong.
-
A Cautioner in the strict sense of its meaning was a person who took responsibility for the debts/obligations of another
CAUTIONER, CAITIONER, Caishoner, n. Sc. law: one who becomes security for another
-
Interesting, so it appears that this Thomas Littlejohn was responsible for ensuring the debt was repaid.
As for the lack of burials, do you think its a case of incomplete burial records online?
-
As for the lack of burials, do you think its a case of incomplete burial records online?
No. It's probably a complete lack of burial records offline.
-
Drovers generally had no assets, the whole trade was carried on by unsecured loans & the occupation only took up half the year at most, some also dealt in cattle themselves or traded in small goods. Many with no ties at home stayed on in the low country helping with the harvest or other labouring work so a gentleman described as a labourer may also have been involved in the cattle trade. A business which supported cottars, shoemaker, tinkers & the odd duke or two! Some even apparently knitted stockings as they went, to sell at the fair at Falkirk etc! ;D
Skoosh.
-
As for the lack of burials, do you think its a case of incomplete burial records online?
No. It's probably a complete lack of burial records offline.
I would agree with Forfarian - Scottish burial records are possibly amongst the worst record set anywhere. Pre Civil registration in some areas the only records you may find are where the church has rented out a mortcloth (coffin covering) and they record the fee raised for this.
-
I would agree with Forfarian - Scottish burial records are possibly amongst the worst record set anywhere. Pre Civil registration in some areas the only records you may find are where the church has rented out a mortcloth (coffin covering) and they record the fee raised for this.
I see, that helps me gain more of an understanding that a burial probably wont be found then! Most of my family are English so I've not got too much experience with Scottish records.
His son ended up in Manchester but I've got no idea how so it is proving fun trying to track down my Scottish ancestors.
But it seems trying to track down Rodericks father is proving difficult as there seems to be an incredible amount of Alexander Frasers in the Inverness area at the time!
Thanks for all your help though people, I've got more of an idea of what could of happened in this situation.
-
Legal records on SP, I wonder if Roderick worked for Thomas?
Fraser Roderick 27/7/1792 labourer in Stirling Stirling Commissary
Littlejohn Thomas 2/6/1827 brewer in Stirling, residing at Annefield, spouse of Christian Glasfurd or Littlejohn Inventory; Settlement Stirling Sheriff Court
Thomas Littlejohn married Christian Glasfurd 14 Jun 1789 Stirling
Colin
-
Just a note, that document that you have posted appears to be the Confirmation expede (issued) after an application for same by the Executor. Not quite sure how a deceased person could be appointed as an Executor? Are you sure that the person is who you think it is rather than another relative with the same name?
Until quite recently (I believe), any Executor applying for Confirmation, where the deceased passed intestate and the Executor was not the spouse of the deceased, had to also purchase a Bond of Caution (kind of an insurance policy and pronounced cayshun) from an Insurance Company to basically insure that the money/goods etc due to those who were due to inherit was received by them. If the due persons did not receive their inheritance, the Insurance Company paid out to them and then came after the Executor!