RootsChat.Com
Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Dublin => Topic started by: npl on Saturday 14 December 19 18:08 GMT (UK)
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Hello Rootschatters,
I am wondering if anyone can advise me, please. My great grandfather was baptised in St. Thomas in 1870, but I cannot find any records for this parish.
Does anyone know if they still exist, and if so where would I find them?
Many thanks in advance.
Nora
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The St. Thomas church of Ireland records are on IrishGenealogy, but they are badly damaged and there are lots of gaps. You can even see burn marks on some of the pages e.g. this page (https://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/display-pdf.jsp?pdfName=d-80-2-5-003)
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Thank you Athacliath 62 for your reply.
From the example page you sent the link to they do indeed seem it a bad state. Such a pity they were not better looked after.
Nora
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It's not a question of them being badly looked after...they were most likely in the Four Courts when it was blown up in 1922!
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It's not a question of them being badly looked after...they were most likely in the Four Courts when it was blown up in 1922!
Close, 1922 but a fire in the church according to this
https://www.ireland.anglican.org/cmsfiles/pdf/AboutUs/library/registers/ParishRegisters/PARISHREGISTERS.pdf
Page 41.
Checked the newspapers , Thursday 6 July 1922, it was attacked by the National Army as it was occupied by Irregulars. "little remained of the building in the morning but a shell."
Depends on what paper you read, not sure the Irregulars were still in the church, another paper says embers from the fire in the Gresham Hotel was the cause.
Basically it went on fire due to the Civil War.
Think I have it now the church was damaged by bullets on Tuseday 4th while occupied by Irregulars but the fire was as a result of the embers from the Gresham on Thursday.
There was so many buildings occupied and so many on fire it gets confusing.
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Thank you Purpeller and Sinan for your replies.
It is so sad when these things happen. Valuable records are lost or in such bad condition, they are almost unusable. Family records are so important and without them we are blocked from going any further back. Frustrating to say the least.
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Is he not on Civil Reg??
As he wasn't R.C. you might even get parent's Marriage as non-RC Marriages start 1845.
as per https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/en/civil-records/help/what-civil-records-are-on-line
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Have you looked for Civil Reg Birth Reg for him or siblings on
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/civil-search.jsp ?
..follow on-screen instructions.
Adjust Search to look for Marriage etc......
Just add his name to example posted below!!
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The Civil War has a lot to be blamed for!
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Thank you Hallmark for your reply and suggestions.
I have searched for him in every different way I can think of with no results. Perhaps he was never registered for some reason. My father wasn't registered either. I have no way around this if that is the case.
Thank you all for your efforts.
Nora
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So how do you know your great grandfather was baptised in St. Thomas in 1870?
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Hi Hallmark,
It says on his army records where he was baptised plus I have it from family. I would like to see the actual record to ascertain his parents.
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8)
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If you've got his parents' names and a parish, have you considered that he may have been born in the Rotunda, and as such, may be registered as Unknown Surname?
I had a similar issue with my great grandfather & wrote about it here:
https://cbgenealogy.ie/?p=424
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Hello Purpeller,
I have to say the Rotunda never entered my head. Thank you for the tip and I enjoyed the article.
Where can I find the Rotunda birth records? Are they online?
Thanks in advance.
Nora
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birth records from 1864 onward are on the IrishGenealogy website (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/civil-search.jsp), try searching with the just the surname for a couple of years either way from your estimated year of birth, look for unknown firstname births, Rotunda births should be under Dublin North district. You have to view the registers to see exactly where each birth took place.
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Glad to be of help.
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Hello Athacliath62,
Thank you for your help. Unfortunately his birth record still eludes me. I did just as you suggested, but no luck. I am no sure I will ever find him.
Kindest regards,
Nora
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What's his name and his parents' names?
I'll have a look too.
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I tried this Search..... no John baptized in St Thomas' 1870
I know we don't know first name but it was to just see state of Bapt register for 1870 !!
Are there Bapt Registers for 1870?
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Not online - just 1886-1900 according to what's on their list.
https://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/parishes/Dublin%20(COI).pdf
But the definitive COI list shows they do exist but are badly damaged before mid-19th century
https://www.ireland.anglican.org/cmsfiles/pdf/AboutUs/library/registers/ParishRegisters/PARISHREGISTERS.pdf
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Hello Rootschatters,
I am wondering if anyone can advise me, please. My great grandfather was baptised in St. Thomas in 1870, but I cannot find any records for this parish.
Does anyone know if they still exist, and if so where would I find them?
Many thanks in advance.
Nora
Looks like one needs to visit the Library.
https://www.ireland.anglican.org/about/rcb-library
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Have you tried widening the search years, if he was born in December he may not have been registered until the following year and he may have his year of birth incorrect.
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Hello Purpeller,
The names you wanted are: Patrick MITCHELL
B: either January, February, or March 1870 (army records) in the
Parish of St. Thomas, Dublin.
Father: Peter MITCHELL
MOTHER: Mary -----? according to the marriage record.
Thank you for offering to look for me.
Kindest regards,
Nora
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Hello Sinan and Hallmark,
Thank you both for your replies and offer of help. It is much appreciated.
I have tried everything I can think of to try to find this birth record, widening the search area etc, but no luck. Unfortunately, I live in England so cannot get to the library in Dublin to find anything they may have. I think I will have to leave this as a lost cause.
Thanks to all Rootschatters for your help.
Kindest regards,
Nora
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have you allowed for him "adjusting his age" to appear older like many did??
Birth results for Mitchell of Dublin from 1870 to 1874
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01ot8/
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Father: Peter MITCHELL
MOTHER: Mary -----? according to the marriage record.
According to what marriage record....where?
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Hello Hallmark,
The marriage of Patrick MITCHELL to Margaret McAULEY took place on the 09/09/1903 in the Parish of St James, James Street, Dublin.
On the marriage entry, it states his parent's names as Peter and Mary Mitchell.
I have tried expanding the years in the in my search, but no luck.
Kindest regards,
Nora
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marriage was in the Catholic St. James
military records often gave the civil or church of Ireland parish, doesn't necessarily mean that the person was CofI.
Does Patrick's military record say he was protestant ?
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Family in Dublin in 1911?
Patrick Mitchell, 41, born Dublin City. Roman Catholic
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Usher_s_Quay/Kearn_s_Place/55618/
Birth of son George
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1908/01656/1660654.pdf
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Male Mitchell born 4 Oct 1903, Dublin. Possibly the 7 year old Peter in 1911
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1903/01851/1721547.pdf
Elizabeth Mary born 27 Sep 1911 at 2 Kearns Place
Father Patrick Mitchell a Labourer, mother Margaret Mitchell, formerly McCauley
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1911/01511/1613802.pdf
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Hello Hallmark,
The marriage of Patrick MITCHELL to Margaret McAULEY took place on the 09/09/1903 in the Parish of St James, James Street, Dublin.
On the marriage entry, it states his parent's names as Peter and Mary Mitchell.
I have tried expanding the years in the in my search, but no luck.
Kindest regards,
Nora
Yes but you didn't say they were R.C. and St Thomas' is not!!!
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Hello Hallmark,
Patrick had to get a special dispensation from the Pope to get married in a Catholic church. The children were all raised as Catholics. He never changed his religion. I hope this clears up the confusion.
Kindest regards,
Nora
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Hello jonw65
Thank you for your replies and the links to records. They are all mine and I have these records :)
It's further back I am trying to go but Patrick MITCHELLS birth in 1870 in St. Thomas is as elusive as ever.
I really appreciate everyone's time and effort in trying to help.
Kindest regards,
Nora
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Hello athacliath62
I have had a look at Patrick's military record and it doesn't ask a question about religion.
Kindest regards,
Nora
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Hi
If I've got it right, Patrick originally attested for the Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers, 10 April 1888.
Age 18 years 3 months
Born in the parish of St. Thomas Dublin
Trade or Calling - Harness Maker
Religious Denomination - Unitarian
He seems to have transferred to the Army Service Corps.
Next of kin brother William Mitchell, Ball's Bridge Forge, Dublin
and brother Charles Mitchell, in the Army Service Corps
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Hello jonw65,
Thank you so much for your reply and for all the extra information you found for me! I can't thank you enough.
On his army record (on Ancestry), I didn't find any other information except the one page. No religion, brothers etc. How can I find this so I can keep a copy?
Kindest regards,
Nora
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Hi
I found the records very confusing!
On ancestry, British Army WWI Service Records, 1914-1920
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/1219/
Patrick Mitchell, born 1870, St. Thomas Dublin
Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers
It starts with his attestation in 1888.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01oti/
Use the right arrow to move to the next image, and so on. There are just over a dozen images I think.
He is also in British Army WWI Pension Records 1914-1920
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/1114/
Patrick Mitchell, born about 1871, "Duhlin"
Residence No 2 Kearso Place, Old Kilmoirton Dublin(!)
Army Service Corps
Two pictures of the start of this papers are there to click on, one starts here with a copy of the attestation and has some of the other info already seen
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01otg/
The second picture link takes you to his subsequent record for WW1, his age here is 44. It's actually just continuing from the above.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01oth/
Again use the right arrow to get to the next image, and then the next, etc.
In here are particulars of his marriage, birth details of his children (a later one is Charles Benedict)
Do save all the images as well.
John
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Hello jonw65,
Thank you so much for all your help with these records, and for all the information you found. I don't think I would have ever found these by myself! I am very grateful.
Now all I have to do is find Unitarian birth records for Dublin and maybe even more relatives :)
I feel like that brick wall is starting to come down!
Kindest regards,
Nora
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Hi
Glad you've got them alright. Plenty to absorb there!
Looking more closely, I think it may have originally said RC for religion on that army form, but it has been crossed out and replaced with Unitarian.
When was that done? It may be that Patrick left the faith, so to speak, for a while. But he was RC in 1911!
Good luck
John
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Patrick had to get a special dispensation from the Pope to get married in a Catholic church. The children were all raised as Catholics. He never changed his religion.
Are you sure it was a papal dispensation and not one from the bishop or vicar general of the diocese? Have you seen the marriage in St. James' marriage register? What does it say about dispensation?
If Patrick was C. of I., the marriage would have been classified as a mixed marriage, "mixta religio", between a Catholic and a Christian who wasn't a Catholic. The parish priest of St. James would have applied to the diocese for a dispensation and it would have been granted by the vicar general, deputy to the bishop, who dealt with administration & matters of canon law.
Theologians disagree about whether Unitarianism is a Christian denomination. As Unitarians don't have a baptism ceremony, a marriage between a Catholic and a Unitarian may have been classified as disparity of cult, "disparitas cultus", between a Catholic and an un-baptised person. In that case, the request for a dispensation may have been sent upwards from the diocese to the Vatican.
Presumably Margaret was the Catholic. The request for a dispensation would have been made on her behalf.
Patrick's religion was recorded as R.C. on 1911 census, found by johnw65. Census return was apparently filled in and signed by him. Was he in Ireland for 1901 census?
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If I've got it right, Patrick originally attested for the Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers, 10 April 1888.
Age 18 years 3 months
Born in the parish of St. Thomas Dublin
Trade or Calling - Harness Maker
Religious Denomination - Unitarian
Next of kin brother William Mitchell, Ball's Bridge Forge, Dublin
and brother Charles Mitchell, in the Army Service Corps
Brother Charles was also in the army. Might their father have been in the army too? Patrick may not have been born in Dublin but lived there from a young age.
Were the brothers born after 1864 civil registration of births? Have you found them on a census?
As brothers were next of kin, can we presume parents were dead? Information about Patrick's birth may have come from one of the brothers or another relative. They may have remembered wrong.