RootsChat.Com
Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Aberdeenshire => Topic started by: Shand-Aberdeenshire on Saturday 04 January 20 07:17 GMT (UK)
-
Trying to find out what happened to James Shand b14 Dec 1828 in Methlick, Scotland. James Shand and Margaret Whyte.
I have him in the 1841 census in New Deer, Scotland and the 1851 census in Methlick, Scotland.
After that, he is a ghost.
Any help would be greatly appreciated!
Shand
-
1861 - Northseat Inkhorn, New Deer
SHAND James Head 35 Farmer 90 Ac Emp 2 Labs 1 Boy ABD New Deer
SHAND Margaret Wife 28 ABD Old Deer
SHAND James Son 3 ABD New Deer
SHAND John Son 1 ABD New Deer
SHAND John Brothr 29 Ploughman ABD New Deer
MANN James Servnt 15 Ploughman ABD Old Deer
AIKIN William Servnt 13 Cattle Boy ABD Ellon
INNES Elizabeth Servnt 20 Domestic Servant ABD Old Deer
DAVIDSON John Boardr 50 Mason Journeyman ABD New Pitsligo
This seems to be the place where the family were in 1841 but I'm not sure if the 1841 & 1851 are the same family?
Colin
-
I think this is James in New Deer in 1851 not in Methlick. I think the New Deer family are
JAMES SHAND/BARBARA JOHNSTON
1851 New Deer.
SHAND James Head W M 65 Farmer 75acres ABD New Deer Emplos 1 Labourer & 2 Sons.
SHAND Elizabeth Dau U F 29 ABD New Deer
SHAND James Son U M 24 Employed On Farm ABD New Deer
SHAND Barbara Dau U F 22 ABD New Deer
SHAND John Son U M 19 Employed On Farm ABD New Deer
SIMMERS John Servnt U M 16 Cattle Man/farm Labourer ABD Old Deer
Colin
-
1861 - Northseat Inkhorn, New Deer
SHAND James Head 35 Farmer 90 Ac Emp 2 Labs 1 Boy ABD New Deer
SHAND Margaret Wife 28 ABD Old Deer
SHAND James Son 3 ABD New Deer
SHAND John Son 1 ABD New Deer
SHAND John Brothr 29 Ploughman ABD New Deer
MANN James Servnt 15 Ploughman ABD Old Deer
AIKIN William Servnt 13 Cattle Boy ABD Ellon
INNES Elizabeth Servnt 20 Domestic Servant ABD Old Deer
DAVIDSON John Boardr 50 Mason Journeyman ABD New Pitsligo
This seems to be the place where the family were in 1841 but I'm not sure if the 1841 & 1851 are the same family?
James would have been 32 in 1861, and he and his siblings (who do not seem to include a John) were all born in Methlick, not New Deer, so it looks like a different family.
-
James Shand and Margaret Wh*te had
Jane, born 8 July 1820
Joseph, born 12 February 1822
Elizabeth and Barbara (twins), born 12 December 1823
James, born 14 December 1828
David, born 8 July 1830
Margaret, born 22 August 1833
Alexander, 3 April 1835
Janet, 16 March 1837
all baptised in Methlick
The family in New Deer in 1851 were all born in New Deer, not Methlick, and Elizabeth is 29 and Barbara 22. James Shand and Margaret Wh*te's twins would both have been 23 on census day 1851 and James would have been 22.
I think the 1851 and 1861 census listed above in New Deer are both the same family, but neither is the the family of James Shand and Margaret Wh*te.
The correct family is at Mill of Elrick, New Deer, in 1841, though it looks as if Margaret Wh*te must have died and James Shand has married Elizabeth Kilgour: James Shand, miller, 40; Elizabeth, 30; Jean, 20; Joseph, 18; James, 13; Margaret, 9; Alexander, 7; Jannet, 5; Mary, 3; Robert, 1.
In 1851 they are in Sesnie, Methlick: James, 56, meal miller; Elizabeth, 43; Elizabeth, 28; James, 23; David, 21; Alexander, 16; Janet, 14; Mary, 12; Robert, 10; Ann, 8; Katerine, 7; Isabel, 5; Grace, 1; George, 9 days; James King, grandson, 1.
In 1861 James sr, widower, 65, is at Auchencrieve, Sessnie, Methlick, with son Alexander and his children by Elizabeth.
There is a death of a James Shand in Methlick in 1891, but the index gives his age as 0. I suspect an indexing error. A look at the certificate will clarify things.
-
JAMES SHAND/MARGARET WHYTE – Methlick - baptism years on SP
Jane 1820, Joseph, 1822, Barbara & Elizabeth, 1824, James 1829, David 1830, Jannet 1837.
Colin
-
The family do not appear on the 1841 census for Methlick on SP?
Colin
-
Forfarian has got the correct family - James Shand senior was a miller, first (or at least, the first time he appears on the census) at Mill of Elrick, Old Deer in 1841, and afterwards at Sessnie in Methlick.
He was a busy boy, and married three times...
First, to Margaret Whyte - can’t find a marriage record, but the children are as listed above:
- Jane b 1820
- Joseph b. 1822
- Elizabeth and Barbara b. 1823
- James b. 1828
- David b. 1830
- Margaret b. 1833
- Alexander b. 1835
- Janet b. 1837
All appear to have been baptised in Methlick, but variously give their birth locations as Old Deer or Ellon in later censuses.
Margaret must have died either at or soon after the birth of Janet in March 1837. James Shand married Isabel or Elizabeth Kilgour in Old Deer in November 1837. He had a further 8 children with her:
- Mary b. 1838
- Robert b. 1840
- Ann b. 1842
- Catherine b. 1844
- Isabella b. 1846
- Grace b. 1849
- George Kilgour b. 1851
- William b. 1853
Elizabeth died in 1859 in Methlick. James then married Jane Brand in 1862 in Methlick, and had another 4 children with her:
- John b. 1863
- Peter Grant b. 1864
- Christina b. 1866
- May Kilgour b. 1869
James died in 1873 at Sessnie - he was 78...
Ruth
-
Having found the family in 1871, on the Freecen site, I see that his third wife was 35 & James was 76.There are several family members at Sessnie which will help trace the family forwards.
flst
-
For the avoidance of duplication, this thread also deals with this family: https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=176414.0
There are a couple of trees on Ancestry which seem to have succeeded in tracing all the children - with the exception of the elusive James ;)
There's also a tree on Ancestry that tries to connect this James Shand to the James Forbes Leith Shand who died in Canada in 1856 - 'engineer from Aberdeen, aged 27'. While it's not beyond the realms of possibility that James Shand changed from being a meal miller in 1851, to an engineer in 1856, it does seem a bit unlikely...
Ruth
-
Have you viewed the will & inventory of James Shand senior? You may find out the whereabouts of James (born 1828) or whether he died before his father.
flst
-
The family do not appear on the 1841 census for Methlick on SP?
No. They were in New Deer.
-
In the kirkyard at Methlick is a "plaque" with the following inscription:
SHAND. In loving memory of my mother Jean Brand d. 1 Apr. 1924 in 89th year. May Kilgour Shand d. 17 July 1954.
-
In a different part of Methlick kirkyard these four stones are next to one another:
Erected to the memory of James Shand late farmer Northseat of Inkhorn d. 5 Aug. 1878 aged 52. William Shand his son d. there 20 Apr. 1880 aged 9. Alexander his son d. 19 Sept. 1885 aged 23. His wife Margaret Stirling d. 22 Mar. 1886 aged 53. His dau. Ann Shand d. 21 June 1890 aged 11.
Erected by Ann Cassie to the memory of her affectionate husband John Shand late farmer in Mill of Inkhorn d. 14 Sept. 1830 aged 39. Their dau. Sarah d. 29 July* in 8th year. Son James d. 26 June 1852 aged 24. said Ann Cassie d. 23 Mar. 1878 aged 80.
* no year given
Erected in memory of Thomas Barclay, Gowanwell, Methlick d. 19 Oct. 1889 aged 74, his wife Jane Shand d. 19 Oct. 1874 aged 54. Their sons George d. 5 Aug. 1877 aged 33. James Walker d. 22 Jan. 1914 aged 72, Jane Barclay d. 6 June 1929 aged 72 (Heart in front) Robert Shand d. 23 May 1884 aged 22.
In memory of Alexander Shand Mill of Sessnie d. 20 July 1912 aged 77, his wife Margaret Castle d. 19 Mar. 1908 aged 69. Their family Georgina d. 27 Aug. 1900 aged 27, Maggie d. 9 Feb. 1890 aged 15, Ebenezer d. in infancy.
-
Thank you all very much for taking the time to reply!
I'll reply to all the previous here instead of one by one.
On 1851 census, the family was in the Parish of Methlick. The name, street, road they lived on was Sessnie. Per scotlandpeoples.gov.
In 1859 Elizabeth Kilgour dies.
James Shand b1794 had three wives. Margaret Whtye m1820, Elizabeth Kilgour m1837 and Jane Brand m1862.
On 1861 census, the family was in the Parish of Methlick. The name, street, road they lived on was at Auchencrieve/Sessnie. Per scotlandpeoples.gov.
James Shand is a widow.
In 1862 James Shand b1794 marries Jane Brand b1836. Interesting that she is younger than many of his children. Also, it seems it is the same Jane Brand b1836 who is right next door on the 1851 census at Goosepoole.
On the 1871 census, the family was in the Parish of Methlick. The name, street, road they lived on was at Sessnie.
The James Shand who died 1891 age 0 is correct. He died at 6 months. His parents were James Shand and looks like Jane Bannerman.
Again, I really appreciate all the help!
Shand
-
What about my query (no.10)?
flst
-
Beside one another in the kirkyard at Methlick:
In memory of John Bannerman, Burnside, Monlettie d. 3 Apr. 1864 aged 50. His grand-son Alexander Shand d. 19 Mar. 1890 aged 4, James d. 31 Oct. 1891 aged 6 mths. Isabella Mitchell, wife of above John Bannerman d. 18 Aug. 1894 aged 77.
Erected by James Shand, Burnside, Methlick, in memory of his wife Jane Bannerman d. 23 Dec. 1928 aged 66. Their family Alexander d. 19 Mar. 1890 aged 4, James d. 31 Oct. 1891 aged 6 mths, Mary d. in infancy. The above James Shand d. Newmill, Methlick 29 Mar. 1938 aged 72. Their son John d, Barnard Castle 7 Feb. 1957 aged 52.
-
I'm looking. Thank you!
What about my query (no.10)?
flst
-
Ses(s)nie has been causing me to scratch my head a bit. However light has dawned. Its is not, as claimed on whichever transcription someone was using, a 'street', but an area with several houses or crofts. See https://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NJ8737, which also shows Auchencrieve.
On the first edition of the six-inch Ordnance Survey map it is spelled Cessnie
https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=16&lat=57.4326&lon=-2.2106&layers=6&b=1
and if you go to https://scotlandsplaces.gov.uk/about and search there for Cessnie you'll see that Mr J Shand is named as one of the authorities for the spelling of the place name.
-
Hi
Just returned after some years absent. Apologies if you've tried to contact me.
Have a look on wikitree.
I've uploaded most of what I have on Shand family. James b1794 seems quite a character, his will is worth downloading particularly re his haste marrying Jane Brand. I'm also puzzled as to why he re-registered Margaret Whytes 6 children in 1854. I think his father Joseph also only registered births 'when he got round to it'. I agree with the reference to James becoming Forbes Leith Shand although have not found mention of him post 1861.
Regards
William Shand
-
Re 1854.
It is very common in 1854 to find groups of earlier family baptisms being recorded together in the parish register. The children were baptised much earlier, but the baptisms had never been noted in the register. The motive for recording them in 1854 was the coming of statutory registration of births in 1855.
-
Iv'e updated a little bit of info.
The parents are James Shand b1794 in New Deer and Margaret Whyte b1795 in Methlick.
On the 1841 census, the family was in the Parish of Methlick. The name, street, road they lived on was Sessnie. Per scotlandpeoples.gov. James Shand was 13.
On 1851 census, the family was in the Parish of Methlick. The name, street, road they lived on was Sessnie. Per scotlandpeoples.gov. James Shand was 23.
In 1859 Elizabeth Kilgour dies.
James Shand b1794 had three wives. Margaret Whyte m1820, Elizabeth Kilgour m1837 and Jane Brand m1862.
On 1861 census, the family was in the Parish of Methlick. The name, street, road they lived on was at Auchencrieve/Sessnie. Per scotlandpeoples.gov. No James Shand b1828
James Shand b1794 is a widow.
In 1862 James Shand b1794 marries Jane Brand b1836. Interesting that she is younger than many of his children. Also, it seems it is the same Jane Brand b1836 who is right next door to them on the 1851 census at Goosepoole.
On the 1871 census, the family was in the Parish of Methlick. The name, street, road they lived on was at Sessnie. Per scotlandpeoples.gov. No James Shand b1828.
I did look at the 1873 will and testaments for James Shand b1794. It does not mention his son James but all of his wives and Alexander Shand. I can't find anything on a James Shand b1828 in Scotland past 1851. Yes there is the 1854 re-Baptism records but that doesn't indicate that James is their in Scotland in 1854. There are 13 James Shand's age 32-38 on the 1861 census. I have looked at 6 of them. They don't fit the James Shand b1828 who would have been 33 in 1861.
The James Forbes Leith connection came about due to the fact I am related to the Methlick Shands. I got a DNA match from a McBride family who was married a Margaret Shand who was born in Toronto, Canada. Her father was James Forbes Leith Shand b1855 in Montreal, Quebec. His father was named J.F.L. Shand. I am assuming, it was James Forbes Leith Shand. He was born in Scotland. He died in 1856, a year after his son was born. His death date was 10 Jun 1856 in Montreal, Quebec. Same city/area as son's birth. I have his headstone. It says from Aberdeen, Scotland.
Based on the death date, there is only one James Shand born in Scotland that fits. James Shand b14 Dec 1828. Per scotlandpeoples.gov and everywhere else I could think to look. Just happens to be a family I know I'm related to.
I know the J.F.L Shand b1828 in Scotland who died in Montreal may not be the James Shand b14 Dec 1828 in Methlick. It's the best I got right now. I always try to disprove the facts so I can make sure it is an accurate connection.
That's why I need your help.
Thank you for all of you time.
Scott Shand
Re 1854.
It is very common in 1854 to find groups of earlier family baptisms being recorded together in the parish register. The children were baptised much earlier, but the baptisms had never been noted in the register. The motive for recording them in 1854 was the coming of statutory registration of births in 1855.
-
The name, street, road they lived on was Sessnie.
Sessnie (Cessnie) is not in a road or street, or in a city, town or village. It is a piece of rural land with several crofts besides the main farm. Please don't misinterpret the page headers in the enumeration book.
-
You are correct. Thank you for the earlier info. Very interesting! I spent a couple of hours looking over it.
Ses(s)nie has been causing me to scratch my head a bit. However light has dawned. Its is not, as claimed on whichever transcription someone was using, a 'street', but an area with several houses or crofts. See https://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NJ8737, which also shows Auchencrieve.
On the first edition of the six-inch Ordnance Survey map it is spelled Cessnie
https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=16&lat=57.4326&lon=-2.2106&layers=6&b=1
and if you go to https://scotlandsplaces.gov.uk/about and search there for Cessnie you'll see that Mr J Shand is named as one of the authorities for the spelling of the place name.
The name, street, road they lived on was Sessnie.
Sessnie (Cessnie) is not in a road or street, or in a city, town or village. It is a piece of rural land with several crofts besides the main farm. Please don't misinterpret the page headers in the enumeration book.
-
I think we need to remember that not all births, marriages and deaths were recorded pre 1855 and even afterwards.
I have caused myself much grief assuming that X Shand must be the one I'm looking for because nobody else fits. Then I find a marriage or death cert for him who was not registered at birth.
Regarding names of people and places, the writer of whichever record would have spelled it as he saw fit. If you look far enough back you will find couples with Schande on their birth and marriage records but the writer called their children Shand.
Regarding Sessnie / Cessnie. James shand is credited with calling it Cessnie, was this his interpretation or the writers. James's will says he was resident at Mill of Sessnie. Same question.
His father Joseph was registered at birth but not death.
We assume he died between 1841 census and 1851.
This leads me to James Shand b1828.
He is on 1851 census but not 1861 so we assume he died, or migrated.
However, there is a death record for a Shand registered at Savoch of Deer, Methlick in 1851.
The entry is after Nov 10th and simply says 13th. November or December ??
It shouldn't be Joseph if we assume he died before 1851 census.
So could it be James ???
A tip with Scots People searches.
I put no name, ticked "both" in gender and Methlick to find this record.