RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Gloucestershire => England => Gloucestershire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Carole DN on Wednesday 15 January 20 12:40 GMT (UK)
-
I am trying to find the birth registration or baptism of Joseph Ronald Clift in Minchinhampton, Gloucestershire, c1882. No entry is listed for either of the two dates I have for his birth: 15 October 1882 (shown on Baptism record at Holy Trinity. He was baptised or re-baptised at the age of 15 years), & 29 November 1882, (on 1939 Register).
The 1891 census shows Joseph age 7 years, together with his younger brother James Clift (age 5 years), in Stroud Workhouse. Then no trace of Joseph or James, until Joseph appears at the age of 15 years in the Gordon Boys Home, West End, Woking, Surrey, and at the age of 15 years he is baptised (C of E), on 30 November 1897, at Holy Trinity, West End, Surrey. I am wondering if this is because he was previously baptised into another religion as a baby.
I would add that he is known as Joseph Clift until his marriage certificate (1904) when he is shown as Joseph Ronald Clift and his father as Joseph James Clift, deceased, occupation: Coal Merchant. I can find no trace of his father either. Joseph married Alice Lilian Robinson, in Chelsea, London, and lived there until he died in 1950 (age 68 years). I would be grateful for any help or information anyone can give me to find Joseph (Ronald) Clift and his parents in Minchinhampton. Thank you. Carole
-
Since there are no birth entries for either Joseph or his brother James I would suggest they were illegitimate and births not registered.
In 1881 there are 2 females - sisters Julia Clift bc.1863 Minchinhampton and Annie Clift bc.1865 Minchinhampton - in Minchinhampton (other female Clift's either too old or too young to be considered mother of the boys).
The 2 sisters were illegitimate daughters of a Caroline Clift and both baptised in 1868 (together with a son Henry bc.1866). Caroline Clift was herself illegitimate, born 1839, daughter of a Harriet Clift.
Somewhat of a precedent going on here!
In 1887 at Rodmarton banns were read on 10/17/24 April for George Gwinnett and Julia Clift but can find no trace of a marriage actually taking place. Was Julia the mother of Joseph and James I wonder and her prospective husband refused to take on her 2 illegitimate sons hence them ending up as they did?
Or was their mother Annie? Unfortunately, I cannot see what became of her after 1881.
Annette
-
Hi Annette
Thank you for getting back to me so quickly. I had wondered about the boys being illegitimate. I agree either of the 'Clifts', you have come up with, could be their mother and its good to have someone else's opinion and help. Thank you for taking the trouble to get back to me and the search goes on. But you may have narrowed it down for me. Good wishes Carole
-
?
??
Looking at GloucestershireBMD Index
Mother's Maiden name: CLIFT
Child Surname
GOULD Joseph - 1882, Stroud, Office, Stroud, Michinhampton **
GOULD James - 1886, ditto ****
*** There is a flag by the entry - and shows a link to two mother's Former Name - but same entry number i.e. DAWN and CLIFT - (GRO INDEX just gives DAWN)
The GRO Index - is a Dec Quarter
GOULD, Joseph - Mother's Maiden Surname: DAWN
GRO Reference: 1882, D Quarter in Stroud Volume 06A Page 349
--
GRO Index -
GOULD James - mother's maiden Surname: HIND
GRO Reference: 1886, M Quarter in STROUD, Volume 06A Page 360
----
**** The one for James in 1886, gives two mother's maiden names again: i.e. CLIFT and HIND
---
There are families of GOULD and HIND in Michinhampton - but I can't find any marriage.
-
I can only call up the mother's maiden name as CLIFT on the GloucestershireBMD - not on the GRO INDEX
-
Re: Julia CLIFT
Again Gloucestershire BMD
Julia CLIFT married George GWINNETT - Cirencester, Rodmarton, St Peter 1887
and the family are there on the 1891 Census Rodmarton
Julia aged 28, born Minchinhampton
plus Son Harry aged 9 months.
-
?
There is on the 1911 Census
Ancestry has transcribed place of birth as Woodchester, Chester, England - when in fact the census says, Woodchester, Gloucestershire, which is about 2.5 miles from Michinhampton
1911, Census, Paddington,
James CLIFT - Servant aged 25 - married under one year born Woodchester, Gloucestershire
and his wife
Sarah Ann Vincent CLIFT - Servant - aged 27 born Folkstone Kent
Marriage 1910 - Canterbury Kent
James CLIFT and Sarah A V EDWARDS
- There is a WW1 Record Card for a James CLIFT.
-
There is a tree on Ancestry for James CLIFT
says he was born in 1886 in Michinhampton, Gloucestershire - father: Joseph CLIFT
goes on to say, James and his brother Joseph are both resident The Union Work House. et
Military 1903, Stroud Gloucester and he did marry Sarah Ann VINCENT etc.
-
there's a possible marriage for Annie Clift june qtr 1891 Thornbury vol 6a pg 353 with Silas Cole on the same page.
1911 census for Annie Cole shows her as 45 born Woodchester, Gloucestershire
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X71P-TVD
ignore this one, her mother was Emma - sorry
Birth reg for Julia Clift has the middle name of Evans. Her mother Caroline married Joseph Hatherall jun qtr 1871 Stroud. The 1881 census for the family has a Henry Evans aged 15 who seems to be the Henry Clift from the 1871 census.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q27J-X84Z
-
My sincere thanks to everyone who replied to my query and thank you for your help. It really helps to have fresh eyes on a problem. I had become blinkered in my perception and your information has helped move my thinking forward. Good wishes Carole
-
?
??
Looking at GloucestershireBMD Index
Mother's Maiden name: CLIFT
Child Surname
GOULD Joseph - 1882, Stroud, Office, Stroud, Michinhampton **
GOULD James - 1886, ditto ****
*** There is a flag by the entry - and shows a link to two mother's Former Name - but same entry number i.e. DAWN and CLIFT - (GRO INDEX just gives DAWN)
The GRO Index - is a Dec Quarter
GOULD, Joseph - Mother's Maiden Surname: DAWN
GRO Reference: 1882, D Quarter in Stroud Volume 06A Page 349
--
GRO Index -
GOULD James - mother's maiden Surname: HIND
GRO Reference: 1886, M Quarter in STROUD, Volume 06A Page 360
----
**** The one for James in 1886, gives two mother's maiden names again: i.e. CLIFT and HIND
---
There are families of GOULD and HIND in Michinhampton - but I can't find any marriage.
I would be very interested in looking at both of these birth certs to see if they shared the same father or mother or both. The birth of Joseph at least may be related to the Joseph GOULD and Mary CLIFF together at Minchinhampton in 1881. It looks like Joseph Snr. died in 1889.
Piece: 2549; Folio: 117; Page: 22
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q27J-XNQZ
Debra :)
-
This is the link to the census (brilliant!)
1881 Census, Minchinhampton
Joseph GOULD 56 - Widower, Wood Sawyer, born Stroud, Gloucestershire
Mary CLIFF - lodger - Widow (Flock & Shoddy Worker) 36 - born Nottingham,** England
Annie CLIFF - lodger - female - 14 Gen Servant Domestic - born Stroud
(written on census as CLIFF)
---
** sometimes, people are born in different places, because the canal system was in its hay-day.
?
Not sure whether a 'one free look-up' service is available at the Gloucestershire Records Office - this was the case a few years ago, because I used this.
Joseph - 1882 says he was born in Michinhampton, Glos
James - 1886 says he was born in Woodchester, Glos.
Using Genuki Gloucestershire - and calculating distance - this is 2 miles
and this website gives, an Extract from National Gazetter, 1868 for Minchinhampton
'On Minchinhampton Common is a very extensive entrenchment, called Amberley Camp, the site of which belongs to the poor, to whom it was granted by Mrs Alice Hampton in Henry VIII's time, when the allotment was 1,000 acres; but from the encroachments which have occasionally taken place, it has been reduced to nearly half the amount.
The entenchment stretches to the length of 3 miles from the hamlet of Littleworth to a valley on the opposite side of the town, called Woeful Danes Bottom - an appellation supposed to be derived from the sanguinary overthrow suffered by the Danes from Alfred the Great in 879.
-
On Ancestry - there is a Prison Records - 14 days
Joseph GOOLD - aged 56 birthplace: Stroud, occupation: SAWYER - dated 13 May 1882
Aged 56, 5ft 5 inches tall -
Religion : DISSENTER - so a non-conformist!
He is in Stroud 1871 - listed as GOOLD - along with his Wife.
Gloucestershirebmd
Joseph GOULD 1889 - Stroud District Age: 66 c1823
-
My apologies as I don't think I replied to your message. Thank you for your help and information. I really appreciate it. Good wishes Carole