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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Topic started by: imison on Friday 19 August 05 12:33 BST (UK)
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I wonder if someone could helpo me find my Vaughan ancestors.
I know that in the 19th century one of my forebears was cut off without a shilling when he married a girl without his family's consent. The family was VAUGHAN.
I do not know WHICH Vaughan it was. I know that the family were lords and Vaughan their name. However it is possible that MORRIS was the family name, as the young man and woman took the name MORRIS when they married.
They then had a DAUGHTER by the name of EMMA LOUISE MORRIS, my great-grandmother.
My great-grandmother married a WILLIAM LANE.
They were living in London in the late 1880s but I find nothing in the censuses about them.
Their 4 children included a son HENRY ALFRED CHARLES LANE who died at sea in the First World War, and is commemorated at Chatham.
The address there was given as TALFOURD ROAD PECKHAM in 1915.
If anyone could help me with these searches I would be most grateful.
I can find little about the family as they do not appear in the 1901 census that I can see.
IMISON
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Hi Imison,
You have psoted this in the Breconshire Look-up offers.
Is this family supposed to have been in Breconshire at some point?
Tanja :)
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Hi Imison,
I do love a good mystery and have to confess I'm feeling a bit pleased with myself for making a little bit of progress on this one.
Here's what I've found:
1891
86 Smyrks (?) Rd, Newington St Mary, London
Lane, William H, abt 1870 Brixton, London, Head, Civil Service, telegraphist
Lane, Emma L abt 1866 Woolwich, Kent, Wife
Lane, Alice E abt 1888 Southwark, London, Daughter
Lane, Henry A C abt 1890 Camberwell, London, Son
MARRIAGE REF
September q. 1887, Lambeth, Greater London 1d/648
LANE, William Henry
MORRIS, Emma Louisa
1881
Cedars Road 7 Cedar Terrace, West Ham, Essex
Henry Lane abt 1844 Ridelworth, Norfolk, Head, carpenter
Grace Lane abt 1845 Truro, Cornwall, Wife
William H. Lane abt 1870 Brixton, Surrey, Son
Alfred F. Lane abt 1872 Kentish Town, Middlesex, Son
Charles S. Lane abt 1875 Forest Gate, Essex, Son
1871
Russell Grove, Lambeth, London
Henry Lane abt 1844 Keddlesworth, Norfolk, Head, Carpenter
Grace Lane abt 1844 Truro, Cornwall, Wife
William H Lane abt 1870 Lambeth, Surrey, Son
These people appear to live in the same house - and there may be a connection (ie Truro)
William Saunders abt 1820 Dumbarton, Scotland Head
Elizabeth Saunders abt 1816 Surrey, Wife
Elizabeth Saunders abt 1841 St Georges, Surrey, Daughter
Ellen Saunders abt 1843 Truro, Cornwall, Daughter
Fanny Saunders abt 1847 Truro, Cornwall, Daughter
William Saunders abt 1849 Truro, Cornwall
Mary Ann Saunders abt 1851 Truro, Cornwall, Daughter
And here it is!
MARRIAGE
June q. 1868, Lambeth, Greater London, 1d/352
LANE, Henry
SAUNDERS, Grace
1861
7 Burgate St, Canterbury St Mary Magdalene Kent
William Saunders abt 1820 Stonehouse, Devon, Head , printer compositor
Elizabeth Saunders abt 1816 Truro, Cornwall, Wife
Elizabeth A Saunders abt 1840 Southwark, Surrey, Daughter, dressmaker
Ellen Sanders abt 1843 Truro, Cornwall, Daughter , tailoress
Grace Saunders abt 1844 Truro, Cornwall, Daughter, dressmaker
Fanny Saunders abt 1847 Truro, Cornwall, Daughter
William Saunders abt 1849 Truro, Cornwall, Son
Mary A Saunders abt 1851 Truro, Cornwall, Daughter
Great frustration, however, that I cannot find any members of the family in 1901, nor Emma Morris/Lane in any other census. With luck, though, her marriage cert should give you the name of her father at least.
Do let me know how you get on - I've become quite involved in them all!
Cheers,
Ros
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Dear Ros
Thank you so much for finding SO MANY of my great-grandparents' family - my mother is speechless and we both wish to thank you so much.
Coincidentally, her brother [sadly now dead] emigrated to New Zealand in the 1950s as I see that you are based in Christchurch.
Talk about a small world!
The mystery does indeed thicken as I now need to search the Devon and Cornwall books.
My mother can add a snippet or two of information:
WILLIAM HENRY LANE who married EMMA LOUISE/LOUISA [she thought it is with an 'e' although the marriage certificate says LOUISA, so she's interested to know this]
was left at the age of about 12 years old to support his 2 brothers [and a sister ?] because his father died after a road accident, and he had to support his widowed mother and siblings.
He went to work in the POST OFFICE so the fact that he is shown as a telegraphist ties in perfectly.
My mother also refers to the fact that her grandmother always liked to move from home to home in rented accommodation, and I wondered if this might just possibly explain why they are not shown in the 1901 census.
She does not think that they were in Scotland, although in view of the Scottish forebear maybe it is not too far fetched to consider a Scottish holiday?
Do you know WHEN in the year the 1901 census was done?
Again, so many thanks to you for all your research - I have been trying in vain for 2 years and now you have found them in hours.
Thank you.
IMISON
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Hi Imison,
I'm delighted to help - and pleased to be vaguely on track. Isn't the internet a wonderful thing!
To answer your census question:
'The 1901 Census for England was taken on the night of 31 March 1901. The following information was requested: Name of street, avenue road, etc.; house number or name; whether or not the house was inhabited; number of rooms occupied if less than five; name of each person that had spent the night in that household; relationship of person enumerated to the head of the family; each person's marital status; age at last birthday (sex is indicated by which column the age is recorded in); each person's occupation; whether they are employer or employee or neither; person's place of birth; whether deaf, dumb, blind, or lunatic.'
I don't think the rented accommodation thing would mean that people didn't turn up in the census. It is possible the name was transcribed very badly (which often happens) but I tried all the members of the family with all possible variations.
Another thought. Did you notice that William Saunders said he was from Scotland in 1871, but in 1861 (presuming this is the same person) he says he was born in Stonehouse, Devon. I'll go back and take another look to see what his occupation was in 1871 (I didn't take them too seriously at the time).
Emma's marriage cert, as I have said, will give the name and occupation of her father (and confirm Wm Lane's details - I trust!).
Someone earlier questioned why you had posted in the Breconshire board. Were the Vaughans/Morrises Welsh? With all the censuses I tried to find a Morris born in Wales, but it was all a bit too vague ...
Can I presume that your grandfather was Henry Alfred Charles? That's how I found them, actually. On Ancestry I put in a search for Henry A C Lane and just one came up. You can imagine how pleased I was when his parents turned out to be William and Emma L.!
Do let me know how you get on.
Ros
PS Nice to have a NZ connection!
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Yes, in 1871 Wm Saunders is a compositor; all the daughters are 'fancy workers' and William is a decorator.
It is now VERY LATE here, so I'm off to bed.
All the best,
Ros
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Dear Ros
I am so grateful to you for all your hard work - don't forget to ask me if there is anything I can look out for you!
I have continued searching, and, like you, find it strange about the DUMBARTON Scotland reference, as it seems strange to have the same person and family but with 2 different birthplaces. Clearly there has been a mistake.
Best wishes and many thanks
IMISON
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I have already written in the Breconshire board because I believed that that was where one of the LORD VAUGHAN families of Wales lived. However, I do not know where the other
reside.
It is like looking for a needle in a haystack.
However, Ros was brilliant and found several missing family members from the description.
Would it be possible please, Moderator, to join the Breconshire posts with a general Wales one?
Thank you very much
IMISON
Moderator Comment: Original "Breconshire" posting now merged here
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imison, 'Google' on down to "mansel 02',might give you a booster.
Best of luck,Goggy.
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Dear Goggy
Thank you very much for the advice. I did go to mansel 02 on Google.
I now see what you meant!
Perhaps my family came from south Wales in Kidwelly! I had thought that it was mid-Wales.
However, it is all so sketchy.
The Vaughan man who was cut off without a shilling had a daughter EMMA LOUISE [or perhaps LOUISA] MORRIS who was shown somewhere as having been born in WOOLWICH. And in Lambeth in 1887 there is a marriage between said EMMA LOUISE/LOUISA MORRIS with a HENRY LANE [descended from GRACE SAUNDERS of Truro and HENRY LANE of RIDDLESWORTH? Norfolk].
Maybe this will help to find out who the elusive VAUGHAN man was? He seems to have TAKEN the name MORRIS. We wondered if he actually married the mother of EMMA L MORRIS.
We know virtually nothing of the Welsh ancestry except the story already outlined.
Anyone who can help with possible leads please let us know.
Many thanks again to everyone for your help
IMISON
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Hi Imison,
A few more snippets:
Births Dec 1890 Camberwell 1d/741
LANE Henry Alfred C
1881
42 Camberwell Green, Camberwell, Surrey
William SAUNDERS Head W Male 62 Stonehouse, Devon, Compositor
Elizabeth SAUNDERS Daur U Female 40 London Borough , London, Middlesex, Infants Robe Maker (Mill) Ellen SAUNDERS Daur U Female 38 Truro, Cornwall, Infants Robe Maker (Mill)
1891
36 Grove Lane, Camberwell, London
Saunders, William abt 1819, Wid. Stonebroom, Devon, Head, Printer compositor
Saunders, Elizabeth abt 1841 Borough, London, Daughter
Lane, Grace abt 1845 Wid. Truro, Cornwall, Lodger
Lane, Alfred abt 1872 Kentish Town, London, Lodger, Lawn tennis bat maker!
Lane, Charles S abt 1874 Stratford, Essex, Lodger, app. printer compositor
Sloman, Herbert O abt 1848 Yammouth, Norfolk, Head, Able seaman seas
Sloman, Ellen abt 1843 Truro, Cornwall, Lodger’s wife
Sloman, John abt 1881 Stratford, Essex, Son
1901
66 Grove Lane, Camberwell, London
Grace Lane abt 1847 Truro, Cornwall, Head, boarding house keeper
John S Duck abt 1881 Stratford, London, Nephew, painter’s (?) apprentice
Elizabeth C E Ayshford abt 1839 Gloucestershire, Boarder
The only possible Morris family I can find:
1881 census
8 Smith St, Kingston On Thames, Surrey
Joseph MORRIS Head M Male 46 Yoxall, Stafford, Carpenter
Marth A. MORRIS Wife M Female 50 Balham, Essex,
Emma MORRIS Dau Female 13 Woolwich, Kent, Scholar
Walter MORRIS Son Male 11 Kingston, Surrey, Scholar
Mary E. MORRIS Dau Female 8 Kingston, Surrey, Scholar
Henry MORRIS Son Male 5 Kingston, Surrey, Scholar
Emily MORRIS Dau Female 3 Kingston, Surrey,
Francis MORRIS Son M Male 20 Dover, Kent, Gas Fitter
Sarah MORRIS Dau In Law M Female 22 Battersea, Surrey
Cheers,
Ros
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Dear Ros
You are a wonderful sleuth - so many more members of my family you have found - my mother is delighted and thanks you very much, as do I.
I have just been checking Emma L Lane and she is in the 1891 census AGED 25 born about 1866. She is there with her husband who is younger than her, and their family. As you correctly state, she was shown as having been born in WOOLWICH.
However, as I am sure you have queried yourself, the reference in Woolwich is to an Emma Morris who is only 13 [unless perhaps the handwriting is illegible and really should be 15 or vice versa the other enumeration has a mistake].
I am not saying this is the wrong entry, just trying to piece it together as in a jigsaw.
Also, my mother said her grandmother's father was definitely VAUGHAN but changed his name to MORRIS. Are there any ways of finding out how NAMES could be changed by deed poll or whether if he was a lord Vaughan's son, maybe the FAMILY name was MORRIS and therefore no name change was necessary. Would it be in Burke's Peerage or Debrett's? I know it seems fanciful but I am prepared to try anything to find the truth. It is just that my mother wants to know who her grandparents were and who her great-grandparents were as it has always been shrouded in mystery.
One last thing is that IF Emma Morris of Woolwich in both census records is really ONE AND THE SAME PERSON then it opens up a whole new part of the family as my mother thought that her grandmother was an only child.
Thank you again for all your kindness
Please let me know if I can repay the kindness to you by searching for you
Best wishes
IMISON
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imison,glad to see you still up+running!
Vaughan is very much on the Irish scene as well,just to keep you hopping,as is Morriss!
Have you had a wander thru' the A2A maze?
AND,I'm sure that you wouldn't forget to keep in mind the alternative spelling's?
Fun,Fun,Fun,isnt it?
Cheer's, ;D Goggy.
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Hi Imison,
I'm still ferretting away - but not getting very far. I'm so frustrated about not being able to find them in 1901. There are only so many ways you can spell Lane!
The 1881 Morris family didn't sound right to me - notice there is a son of 20 and a big gap down to Emma, which sugggests there were other children in between who had left the family home. Doesn't seem to fit the story - but this is more or less the only Emma Morris born around 1866.
My knowledge of London is so vague that I didn't appreciate that Woolwich Kent is practically in London. When I searched the 1871 census using London instead of Kent it came up with the same family!
I searched the birth regs and all I could come up with was an Emma Morris, reg Dec q Newington 1d/247 - the only one remotely in the right geographical region (as far as I can work out).
The other problem I am having is that the only Lord Vaughans I can find on the web are the three Earls of Carbery, the last one of whom died in 1713, without an heir. This seems too far back?
You didn't answer my query about the Welsh connection?
Guess we will just have to wait until you see the marriage cert. Don't forget to let me know what turns up!
Cheers,
Ros
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Dear Goggy
Yes indeed it is ffun, ffun, ffun!
I am now more confused than ever.
I am betwixt and between as it were.
You are absolutely right that it is A MAZE in the A2A - it will take me a month just to look at all of the google!
Can you suggest what ALTERNATIVE spellings there might be? Unfortunately my Welsh is limited to about 5 words.
Thank you so much
If there is anything I can look out for you on my travels, do let me know.
IMISON
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Further to postings I have both written and received, I wish to thank everyone for their great help and support. I have found more out in a 7 day period than I had in years. I even studied a genealogy course 11 years ago but found very little except a vicar in ENMORE, by the name of POOLE. He apparently was a local philanthropist and there is a school with local associations still extant I understand.
Thank you again
IMISON
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imison,delighted you've made so much progress,there is a very good guide to navigating A2A posted by "mnmilt" in Family History,on this site.
It has, up to a point,put me in the place's aimed for,the resultant S.N.A.F.U.S are totally mine!Do a print out and follow that,it worked for me.
I will get back to you when I've found the alternative's for Vaughan,ignore' Frankie',he was named by his Jewish G'Ma,he was in her eye's No 1,Vorn!!!
Regard's, Goggy. ;D
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Dear Goggy
Thank you very much for your excellent advice.
I shall indeed go to the A2A guide by mnmilt in the Family History section - I did not know it existed! Is it easy to find?
I love the idea of Frankie Vaughan! You've got a brilliant sense of humour!
Best wishes
IMISON
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imison,glad you liked the singer,if not the song!
Now then,back to the bizzo',go to the Common room,find" RE;National Archive's web site Headache",user name Wheeldon,12/8/05, and there you are!!
5Regard's,Goggy. ;D
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Dear Goggy
Thank you very much for your kind help and expertise - and keep on with the joking!
Best wishes
Imison
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imison,d'you think I could find my way back to the right page!Finally Welsh Wale's did the trick.
So, some derivative's for you.Hang on,just chasing my Dog off my immaculately scattered filing system.
VAGN,VAGHN,VAUGHON,VAUGN,VAUGNE,VAUGNH(?),VAUHGN(?)LOOK LIKE MISPRINTS.
Also in my travels in Gosport,saw,Margaret Alice of Chas+Eliz;+a Chas+Wlm Thom born later,these came froma Knights roots site,births cover 1849-1857. Enough drop's make an Ocean!
Regard's,Goggy 8)
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Dear Goggy
What a wonderful find! I don't know how you did it - Emma Morris is an absolute mystery as although we know who she married, we know nothing of her birth at all. The only bit is that her father was cut out of the family inheritance for marrying? the girl that his father ? disapproved of.
Sounds like a romantic novel of the time !
I know that Woolwich has been suggested as a place but then the dates do not add up.
The only fly in the ointment with your wonderful research is that my mother said that HER mother never knew of any other children of Emma's parents! ie she was an only child.
However, that having been said, who knows!!! The past is so shrouded in mystery it may never be revealed what really happened.
I shall now think carefully about those names - thank you so much. I am really grateful.
Best wishes to you and your lovely dog
IMISON