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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Hampshire & Isle of Wight => England => Hampshire & IOW Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Zoe44 on Tuesday 26 May 20 14:26 BST (UK)
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Hi im looking for help tracing my 3rd grandmothers birth records ...
She was born Charlotte White
about 1822-25 Winchester Hampshire.
She Married John Lamb 1842 and Thomas Browning 1862 after John passed away and had 5 children
I’m just really unsure on her birth records and hoping someone might be able to help! :)
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Who do her marriages name as her father and what was his occupation.
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There won't be any birth certificate as such that far back only a baptism record if she was baptised.
As Rosie says her fathers name is the first starting point.
Have you looked for her in 1841?
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I can see banns for a second marriage 9 Mar 1862 Newington Southwark.
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I can see banns for a second marriage 9 Mar 1862 Newington Southwark.
I found the banns but couldnt find the marriage -not even on the registers
I did find this which is a little strange
from Parish register
St Leonards Shoreditch marriage by licence
22 July 1854
Thomas Browning 50 W farmer Newton Northamptonshire father John Browning farmer
Charlotte browning 50 W St Leonards Shoreditch father Robert WHITE occ Farmer
witnesses William Browning Emily Wilton
very strange
could you give details of children and where Charlotte is living on the census
Suz
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A census entry would be really useful for her to give an idea of her place of birth. Was she consistent?
Nell
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Charlotte browning 50 W St Leonards Shoreditch father Robert WHITE occ Farmer
That is a strange one but too old to be Charlotte White born 1822-1825 if she was 50 in 1854 :-\
I was looking for her under Charlotte Lamb in 1851/1861 but nothing.
Hopefully Zoe44 can give us a bit more information.
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In the meantime found a couple of children Lamb/White born Winchester
William - Jun 1843 - baptism 26 Nov 1843 son of John & Charlotte
Eliza - Mar 1845 - baptism 29 Dec 1844 dau of John & Charlotte
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Eliza Lamb father John marriage 1868 to John Noble and in 1871
John Noble 25
Eliza Noble 25 born Winchester
Charlotte Lamb 20 step sister born Ireland
Elizabeth Browning 6 step sister born St Georges Surrey
Elizabeth Browning born Mar 1865 St George has mothers maiden name Lamb
So the right mix of names there but still rather confusing although an Irish birth may explain the lack of English census 1851/1861.
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Eliza Lamb father John marriage 1868 to John Noble and in 1871
John Noble 25
Eliza Noble 25 born Winchester
Charlotte Lamb 20 step sister born Ireland
Elizabeth Browning 6 step sister born St Georges Surrey
Elizabeth Browning born Mar 1865 St George has mothers maiden name Lamb
So the right mix of names there but still rather confusing although an Irish birth may explain the lack of English census 1851/1861.
The OP’s previous threads suggest this is the right family, and that descent is through Charlotte Lamb. She married:
1 to ?? Marshall
2 to Alfred Allen, 29 March 1875 Southwark - father John Lamb gunsmith, wits John Noble, Annie Allen
After marriage she gives her birthplace as Winchester c1851. Husband no 2 calls himself Frederick Allen.
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John & Eliza Noble are witnesses to marriage of Charlotte Lamb 25 Jul 1871 father John deceased to Henry William Marshall.
Yes you're right she doesn't put Ireland as birthplace again but can't see a Winchester birth for her.
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John & Eliza Noble are witnesses to marriage of Charlotte Lamb 25 Jul 1871 father John deceased to Henry William Marshall.
They are also looking after her son Henry Wm. Marshall, 8 in 1881 (“adopted son”).
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Thomas Browning is in Southwark & widowed by 1881: 48, bootmaker, b Newington.
He has with him 2 children:
Thomas Browning 18 b Newington
Elizabeth Browning 15 b St George Southwark (deaf & dumb)
RG11/522/119/33
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Thomas Browning is in Southwark & widowed by 1881: 48, bootmaker, b Newington.
In 1851 he is probably the Ladies Shoemaker with his parents Thomas and Eliza in Southwark.HO107;
Piece: 1563; Folio: 335; Page: 16
She Married John Lamb 1842 and Thomas Browning 1862 after John passed away
The banns were read in 1862 for the marriage to Thomas BROWNING but it doesn't look like the marriage took place.
Where do you see evidence of Charlotte being born in Winchester?
Debra :)
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He has with him 2 children:
Thomas Browning 18 b Newington
Elizabeth Browning 15 b St George Southwark (deaf & dumb)
Oh so another child, can't see his birth registration at present but I wonder if that was why the marriage banns? Little Thomas was on the way.
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They are also looking after her son Henry Wm. Marshall, 8 in 1881 (“adopted son”).
Sorry who did he belong to?
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They are also looking after her son Henry Wm. Marshall, 8 in 1881 (“adopted son”).
Sorry who did he belong to?
I think he must be a son of the first marriage of Charlotte née Lamb.
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It looks as though John Lamb may have died Sep qtr 1857 Winchester aged 36.
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Another family member?
Louisa Lamb, mmn White, birth reg Sep qtr 1856 Winchester
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So John Lamb should be around in 1851. Where was the Lamb family if daughter Charlotte really was born in Winchester and not Ireland.
This one is really puzzling.
Louisa Lamb would make 5 children which was mentioned at the beginning. So where in 1861 were all the little Lambs.
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Does OP have the marriage certificate to John Lamb, sorry if I have missed it but it does get confusing when other posts are involved.
Has anyone previously looked at this baptism
Charlett White
Baptism 06 Dec 1822
Winchester, Hampshire
Father George White
Mother Elizabeth
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A Louisa Lamb of the right age turns up in service in Liverpool in 1881, born “Ireland”. Perhaps the family shuttled between Winchester and Ireland - perhaps due to Army employment, as John was a gunsmith, and the children were later confused as to where they had been born?
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That sounds plausible and why they don't seem to be around in England 1851.
Haven't heard back about the marriage yet Rosie.
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Thanks Millie ;D.
Really that is what we need to answer OP's original question, without that we could be suggesting any baptism. We are spending a lot of time on this going round in circles and not getting the answer from OP about the marriage details.
Hi im looking for help tracing my 3rd grandmothers birth records ...
She was born Charlotte White
about 1822-25 Winchester Hampshire.
She Married John Lamb 1842 and Thomas Browning 1862 after John passed away and had 5 children
I’m just really unsure on her birth records and hoping someone might be able to help! :)
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Just noticed there is another Lamb marriage same page as John Lamb and Charlotte White.
Louisa Lamb to William Wallis Dec 1842 Winchester and they are in St George Middlesex by 1851.
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Possibly unhelpfully, there is a Charlotte White, unm, 38 b Winchester, lodging in Newington in 1861.
She may be a sister (even a twin?) of William White, 38 b Winchester, enumerated at the same address.
RG9/335/95/42
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there's an army record for John Lamb born Winchester St Maurice. He attested 22 Nov 1845 to the 55th Regiment of Foot when he was 24 and 6 months. He was an armourer, spent 3 years in Gibraltar, one in Turkey and was in Ireland in early 1851 as he was court martialled in Cork 19 Feb. Left the service 18 Sept 1855.
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there's an army record for John Lamb born Winchester St Maurice. He attested 22 Nov 1845 to the 55th Regiment of Foot when he was 24 and 6 months. He was an armourer, spent 3 years in Gibraltar, one in Turkey and was in Ireland in early 1851 as he was court martialled in Cork 19 Feb. Left the service 18 Sept 1855.
Good find. He received disabling foot injuries in the Crimea on 17 March 1855, losing portions of both feet including several toes, which led to his discharge (at Chatham) a few months later.
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Does OP have the marriage certificate to John Lamb, sorry if I have missed it but it does get confusing when other posts are involved.
Has anyone previously looked at this baptism
Charlett White
Baptism 06 Dec 1822
Winchester, Hampshire
Father George White
Mother Elizabeth
Also baptised - same date, same details - was William White. I suggest these two are likely to be the ones found in Newington, Surrey in 1861 (reply #25).
Newington was of course where Thomas Browning was from, and where the banns for him and Charlotte Lamb were read in March 1862.
If Charlotte “White” in Newington in 1861 is the right Charlotte, then it is puzzling that she is presented as unmarried rather than widowed - unless of course she had separated from the stricken John Lamb, and didn’t (yet?) know that he had died.
Frustrating that we don’t have the marriage details from 1842.
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Frustrating that we don’t have the marriage details from 1842.
I agree. They should help solve it unless there is no father named ;D
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Hi so sorry I havnt been online I’ve had WiFi problems for a few days!
Just reading all your replies now trying to take everything in, you’ve given me so much more info.
I have the index no. for Charlotte and John Lamb’s marriage 1842.
Vol 7 page 396
But not sure if that’s the correct info you were asking for?
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You’ll need the marriage certificate (which you can order from GRO Online using the reference details you have) in order to find out more. It should contain a name and occupation for Charlotte’s father which ought to help in tracing her origins further. Witness names can also be helpful, as can age at marriage.
What is the documentary source for her birthplace of Winchester and birthdate 1822-25? Has she been found in any census?
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Thank you arm I think ordering her marriage certificate will have to be my next step in tracing her.
I have Charlotte in 1841 living in Winchester high street as a servant aged 20 and birth place Winchester but I’m obviously not a 100% certain it’s the correct record for her to be honest
You’ll need the marriage certificate (which you can order from GRO Online using the reference details you have) in order to find out more. It should contain a name and occupation for Charlotte’s father which ought to help in tracing her origins further. Witness names can also be helpful, as can age at marriage.
What is the documentary source for her birthplace of Winchester and birthdate 1822-25? Has she been found in any census?
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Hi Suz
Thanks for that info,
This side of my family is so confusing...
Do you mean you think her marriage was never officially registered in 1862?
The parish register has thrown me it’s very confusing!
The only “possible” census i have for Charlotte is 1841 living in Winchester aged 20
She had 5 children, 3 by John Lamb.
William 1843
Eliza 1844
Charlotte 1851 (My GG grandmother who’ve I’ve also never traced registered birth records for!)
And 2 with Thomas Browning.
Thomas 1863
Elizabeth 1865
I can see banns for a second marriage 9 Mar 1862 Newington Southwark.
I found the banns but couldnt find the marriage -not even on the registers
I did find this which is a little strange
from Parish register
St Leonards Shoreditch marriage by licence
22 July 1854
Thomas Browning 50 W farmer Newton Northamptonshire father John Browning farmer
Charlotte browning 50 W St Leonards Shoreditch father Robert WHITE occ Farmer
witnesses William Browning Emily Wilton
very strange
could you give details of children and where Charlotte is living on the census
Suz
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It seems to be 6 children rather than 5 including Louisa Lamb b 1856 Winchester, unless you have ruled her out.
There’s no evidence that Charlotte ever went through with a marriage to Thomas Browning, although banns were called. Perhaps baby Thomas arrived and they didn’t get around to the wedding.
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Just adding for now, the 1841 entry you have for Charlotte the servant who is living in Winchester states that she is born in the County (Hampshire) so not necessarily Winchester.
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Hi just wanted to say thanks for all the help and info you found for Charlotte White and family for me .... :)
Ive received the copy of Charlottes marriage cert. to John Lamb and confirmed her father as William White so finally putting the pieces together for her!
Thanks again x
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what occupation is given for him?
who were the witnesses?
There's more than one William White in the Winchester area.
:-\
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Hi just wanted to say thanks for all the help and info you found for Charlotte White and family for me .... :)
Ive received the copy of Charlottes marriage cert. to John Lamb and confirmed her father as William White so finally putting the pieces together for her!
Thanks again x
Sorry not William...
George White i think lockdown has made my brain go to mush!
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what occupation is given for him?
who were the witnesses?
There's more than one William White in the Winchester area.
:-\
Hi Osprey
Apologies i meant to write George White not William!
Occupation: Labourer
Witnesses Thomas Naylor and Harry Hearne
I'd post a copy but not sure how to attach to this thread x
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you can't attach to a post on a look up board.
So, she does seem to be the Charlotte of the 1822 baptism found by Rosie earlier in this thread.
Not seeing an obvious entry for him in 1841. There is a George White 60 labourer not born in county in Middle Brook St with a Mary White 25 but haven't spotted a baptism that would tie in. HO107/409/6 folio 37 pg 16
:-\
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you can't attach to a post on a look up board.
So, she does seem to be the Charlotte of the 1822 baptism found by Rosie earlier in this thread.
Not seeing an obvious entry for him in 1841. There is a George White 60 labourer not born in county in Middle Brook St with a Mary White 25 but haven't spotted a baptism that would tie in. HO107/409/6 folio 37 pg 16
:-\
Hi
Yes i think she's definitely the Charlotte Rosie found :)
I did see that 1841 entry for a George White living in Middle Brook St. but wasnt 100% sure...
Although his son William is living in the same street on the 1851 census with his family.
These Whites haven't made it very easy to track them down!!