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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: Peggle on Tuesday 02 June 20 04:01 BST (UK)
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James Ralph Matthews married Lillian Tiffen in Broken Hill NSW June 1891.
They were married at The Manse ,Sth. Broken Hill according to the rights of the Baptist Church. The marriage certificate says James was a contractor and that his parents are unknown.
Hoping that James' death certificate would provide his parents names also proved fruitless.
James died in Ascot Vale in Victoria 23 May 1922,aged 61.
It says he was born in Longford Tasmania.
His wife Lillian is still living. The children listed are;
Nettie May 32 (Nettalie May)
James Robert 30 (James Robert was informant)
Ivy Lily 28
Dorothy 25 (Mary Ann Dorothy Louisa)
Herbert 23 (Herbert William)
Walter 20 (Walter Clem)
Nora 19 (Nora Ellen)
Violet 17
Olive 16
Ernest 13 (Ernest Ralph)
Elsie 11 (Elsie Elizabeth)
Tyrill 6 (Tyrill Evelyn)
James met Lillian in Wilcannia NSW. He held an Engine Drivers Certificate according to his son Walter Clem and was working on digging dams on large outback properties. It's understood that James returned to Tasmania to start work with the Emu Bay Railway, most certainly before October 1898 as Herbert William was born there.
James' son believed that his father had 6 or 7 brothers and that he didn't know where they were.
James' first 4 children were born in Wilcannia and Broken Hill NSW.
His remaining children were born in and around Emu Bay Tasmania.
The Emu Bay Estate included Ridgley which is about 15 km. south of Burnie and formed part of the Van Diemens Land Company.
Walter Clem,known as Clem and his sisters Violet and Netallie, known as Nellie were pupils at Ridgley School.
So James Ralph Matthews is our brick wall......we cannot find a record of his birth in Tasmania.
Any help would be so very much appreciated please, before I go loopy.
Kindest regards,
Peggle
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Can you give full details from the marriage cert, place of birth, age and witnesses.
Debra :)
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Hi Debra,
there were no ages recorded.
The witnesses were;
David Pinnuck
Johanna Pinnuck
Thanks
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No place of birth stated either Debra. Isn't the lack of detail a bit strange?
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You need to see the church register, see JM's post here:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,546609.0.html
Debra :)
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Are you saying that the marriage certificate...where parents' names are recorded....you see the word "unknown".
What details are recorded for Lillian.....her age?....her parents' names?.....her birthplace?
Do you see blank space....a dash "-"....the word "unknown".....
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Thanks for that link Debra, but therein lies another problem. My cousin has been in touch with the NSW Baptist Archives and received this response;
"The only Broken Hill marriage register I can find is 1939-41. Prior to the 1940's the Baptist churches were in the South Australian Baptist Union who may have the register for 1891"
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Wivenhoe, the space for Fathers name,Mothers name and maiden name are blank.
On James Ralph Matthews death certificate it said, Mother unknown, Father unknown. :o
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Hi
Thanks for that link Debra, but therein lies another problem. My cousin has been in touch with the NSW Baptist Archives and received this response;
"The only Broken Hill marriage register I can find is 1939-41. Prior to the 1940's the Baptist churches were in the South Australian Baptist Union who may have the register for 1891"
Have you contacted the Baptist Union of South Australia?
Also,
What info is recorded on the NSW birth cert of the first child to the couple after their marriage ... that should give you a possible start point, as it should give place of birth, and age for each of that baby's parents ....
JM.
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Only posting this so as not to lose it - nowhere near enough information to consider it's your man, however, the date fits, and his son was also named James.. :-\ However, the registration is at Launceston and the record states that the mother is resident in Launceston.
Births registered in the district of Launceston, 1862
Date of birth: 16 June 1862, column for the forename is blank,
Father: James MATTHEWS, letter carrier
Mother: Jane MATTHEWS, nee BOXALL, resident Launceston (Mother is the informant, and signs the record)
https://linctas.ent.sirsidynix.net.au/client/en_AU/names/search/results?qu=matthews&qu=james
Judith
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What details are recorded for Lillian.....her age?....her parents' names?.....her birthplace?
Familysearch has birth registrations for Walter Clem (1902), Violet (1904) father James 36 years, Olive (1905) father James 40 years....with father's birthplace Tasmania.
Lillian is the informant. Lillian is giving information about James.
You need to see James Ralph MATTHEWS giving information about his age and birthplace.
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Thanks judb,
We have scoured the Tas Name Indexes and come across that one, but as you say, it's hard when there's so little info. There are actually quite a few possibles that could fit within a range of 5-10 years of his apparent birth year. It gets more confusing too because his age stated on various birth documents jumps around a bit and it's almost like he himself is not sure how old he actually is....
Someone came across a James Ralph Matthews born in Emu Bay in 1870 but we can't access that one online either.
And majm, thanks.
Will have a look into that firstborn in wedlock one
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wivenhoe thanks,
yeah, James' ages are all over the place.
Lillian Tiffin was born 24 Sep 1870 in Campbell Creek, Victoria.
Her parents are;
Robert William Tiffen b.1823 Norfolk Eng.
Mary Ann Johnson b.abt 1832 Stowbridge Eng.
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Yes, what I am suggesting is that it is likely that James would go along to register his first born, and be the one who answers the oral questions about himself ... including : where were you born and how old are you....
So where he is the informant, his info could be thought to be a tad more detailed about himself... when Lillian is i informant, her info about herself could be a tad more reliable.... :)
And remember, the recorder has the ledger register book facing themselves, while the parents are on other side of counter, standing, and are not university qualified spellers or readers of bdm clerks scribble which is upside down to them.
JM
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"...What details are recorded for Lillian.....her age?....her parents' names?.....her birthplace?"
My interest is specifically what is recorded on the marriage record, 1891.
What is recorded on the marriage certificate, 1891, by Lillian, about her origins?
James Ralph MATTHEWS, engine driver....is he a locomotive engine driver....or engine operator in industry?
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James Ralph MATTHEWS.....anything I see online.....BDM.....electoral rolls.....cemetery record......name R(alph) appears. I am not seeing that name again in the next generation....sons / daughters of James MATTHEWS.
Do you see the name Ralph again in this family?
Probate file for James Ralph MATTHEWS, died 1922, Victoria, his estate includes a two storey, 8 room brick house, 203 St Leonards Rd Ascot Vale. There does not seem to be a mortgage on this property.
James Ralph MATTHEWS would seem to be a railway labourer, with a large family......and owns a rather substantial house?
When did the MATTHEWS family move to Melbourne from Tasmania? Do you know why they left Tasmania?
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LIST Tas has historic deeds (13/9680 & 9681) that show a 1916 conveyance of 100 acres of land at Emu Bay from Letitia Dean to James Ralph Matthews, and then to Melmoth Robotham.
https://www.thelist.tas.gov.au/app/content/home
James Ralph Matthews is described as 'of Ridgley in Tasmania Station Master'
M
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James Ralph Matthews moved to Victoria possibly around 1920 for cancer treatment. The cause of death was Carcinoma of the stomach.
My Grandfather Walter Clem believed his Dad James Ralph had an Engine Drivers Licence but I can't find anything to support this claim, as in a formal certificate, only that he was Station Master (as listed on Tyrell Evelyns birth certificate) at Ridgley and Engine Driver was stated as occupation on his death certificate.
Is it ok to put a pic of the marriage certificate on here? James is listed as a Contractor and Lillian as a Dressmaker.
My cousin, (whom amazingly, I've only just recently found thru beginning this search and only since March when my father died and left 4 pages of notes given to him) began searching for James Ralph's parents about 30 years ago, hit the same brick wall with trying to find James' parents then.
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wivenhoe yes, Walter Clem's son was Clem Ralph Matthews.
matthew64 thanks for that info about the land too.
We,ve only just tonight got the birth certificate of Nettalie May born 28 Nov 1889 in Hood Street, Wilcannia, NSW. The informant on this is actually JR Matthews. He's listed as being a Bootmaker, aged 25 and born in Longford, Tas.
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wivenhoe yes, Walter Clem's son was Clem Ralph Matthews.
matthew64 thanks for that info about the land too.
We,ve only just tonight got the birth certificate of Nettalie May born 28 Nov 1889 in Hood Street, Wilcannia, NSW. The informant on this is actually JR Matthews. He's listed as being a Bootmaker, aged 25 and born in Longford, Tas.
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Hi, My puter is not behaving, sorry.
But I am sure there's several related families in the 1890s with the surname MATTHEWS in the Wilcannia - Bourke district. I will get cracking on checking my own family history resources to see what I have.
In the meantime, Peggle, don't spend big dollars on the real deal certificates, there's always the official transcription services .... see this thread : https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=300394.0
JM
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1891 NSW Householders etc
Broken Hill, King, Silverton.
Damaged pages, but left hand page, part way down, at Bonanza Mine ... householder no. 375 by the enumerator
J MATTHEWS 1 male, 1 female.
Notice several householders were recorded as 'Tent removed' and notice also further down the left hand page 'Engine Room' ... and other Mines .... I wonder if J Matthews is 'Pebbles' chap, and even if not, if 'Engine Room' is for a stationary steam engine used to provide power to the various mine sites ... so the Engine Driver thoughts could turn to a stationary engine which of course requires a driver to operate (drive) the complex machine.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QKKQ-N1Z7
JM
Currently coping with a Windows 7 puter that keeps reminding me it is only a Windows 7. :D
ADD, try familysearch.org, and restrict your search to the 1891 NSW census ;D https://www.familysearch.org/search/collection/2317858
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ADD, try familysearch.org, and restrict your search to the 1891 NSW census ;D https://www.familysearch.org/search/collection/2317858
JM ;D
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Ah the challenges we have with technology ;)
I'm trying to master this touch pad while resisting the urge to drag a mouse out ;D
Interestingly while looking into the witnesses, David and Johanna Pinnuck on James and Lillian's marriage certificate and also seeing Nettalie May Matthews place of birth (1889) as being Hood Street Wilcannia , I came across this link
http://www.nzrcranes.org/genealogy/geyer2.html
In it there's reference to David and Johanna living at a Hood Street Wilcannia address. Johanna is a nurse. They are noted as later living at 42 Bonanza Street, Broken Hill.
James Ralph and Lillian's next 2 children are born in Broken Hill and a 3rd in Sturt.
We did wonder if James' engine licence might relate to the operating of steam engines of sorts as is the requirement today for the men who operate and maintain historic steam engines that still exist.
If he was also working as a contractor digging dams on large properties, he may have also operated some kind of steam powered tractor/bulldozer type machine?
There also seems to be numerous Matthews/Mathews publicans in the region that need further investigation. Perhaps there's a connection of family there with those names for James Ralph Matthews and we should possibly consider that the two 't's in our Matthews name, may originally only have been one 't'.
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The Silverton census listing is a good one, thank you and could be them.
It's so hard connecting the dots when it's just a name on paper. Iv'e spent hours scouring records on Familysearch until my eyeballs felt square...haha
In the 1887 Electoral Roll for Menindie property holders there was a James R Mathews, freehold,Momba.....another possible.
.......And it would be awesome to not have to pay $35 for a certificate for NSW
whilst Vic certificates are currently $20 ???
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Someone came across a James Ralph Matthews born in Emu Bay in 1870 but we can't access that one online either.
This could be a baptism, do you have any other details about this? It may be that he was born in Longford, but not baptised until later. I can submit a question to the archives here, but some more information would be useful to narrow it down.
M
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:D :D :D HOOD Street, Wilcannia 1902 :D :D :D
1902, NSW Electoral Roll for the electoral district of BARRIER and polling at Wilcannia. First time for females aged 21 and over... :D
Clara Matthews, Hood Street, domestic duties
NO OTHERS by that surname listed for that street. :-\
This is not the same roll as Ancestry's 1903-04 roll. ;D
JM
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NSW ER 1913 WILLYAMA, Wilcannia Polling Place
Clara MATTHEWS, Wilcannia, domestic duties
Note from JM .... no street names on the 1913 roll, and no others at Wilcannia polling place with that surname.
JM
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:D PINNUCK as a surname (witnesses to the marriage) :D
NSW ER 1902 BARRIER, Willyama polling place (as in a suburb of Broken Hill)
George PINNUCK, Argent Street, labourer
JM
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Western Grazier 19 Oct 1904 p2
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/138889048?
.......Arthur GOURLAY......paternity of girl born previous month to Grace GOODE or MATTHEWS.....mother of Grace is Clara MATTHEWS
NSW BDM marriage
3831/1884 GOODE Edward marr. MASKREY Clara @ Bathurst
7170/1903 GOODE Clara marr. MATTHEWS William @ Wilcannia
George James MATTHEWS #1680 # V16993 WW1 enlistment NOK Clara MATTHEWS
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matthewj64 that information re the 1870 Emu Bay birth was given as a possible for our James Ralph on a Facebook Genealogy page. We're still trying to pin down his real birth year as there's been so many inconsistencies with his ages as recorded on his children's birth certificates. Can't find a record tho to support that suggestion.....
James Ralph's daughter's birth certificate for Mary Ann Dorothy Louisa born 2 July 1896 at Torrowangee near Broken Hill, records his age as 30 suggesting he was born about 1866??
James is a Contractor and Lillian is the informant.
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Yeooow...... my head hurts :o :)
The Clara is interesting. Hmmmmm... There seems to be something with the Hood Street address.
There's a William J Matthews, Publican of the Miner's Arms Hotel, Silverton-Broken Hill listed for 1888,1890-1891.
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https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/collections-and-research/guides-and-indexes/criminal-depositions-deposition-books-index
- a James Ralph Matthews is in this index for 1887, false pretences at Wilcannia
If this is him it pushes the timeline back a couple years. Can't see any newspaper references - possible he was acquitted.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/64800011?searchTerm=%22James%20Matthews%22%20Ridgley
- also very interest article from 1906
James Matthews of Ridgley was in the service of the EBR (Emu Bay Railway).
James Stirling, manager of the EBR, said he had known James Matthews for 13 or 14 years, and "he was with witness before he came to Tasmania", suggesting that they had worked together in NSW.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/68081353?searchTerm=%22James%20STirling%22%20%22EBR%22&searchLimits=
- James Stirling previously managed the Tarrawingee Railway Company in NSW, which had a line running between Broken Hill and a quarry providing limestone for the smelters.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarrawingee_Tramway - this is the company.
James Stirling moved to Tasmania in 1897 which does seem to fit quite well with the movements of the Matthews - it appears that the need for limestone from the quarry ended about this time so perhaps James Stirling offered jobs in Tasmania to some of his previous employees.
Torrowangee on the birth certificate you have = Tarrawingee?
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The 1887 court action was NO BILLED image of court papers show this.
ADD
So the police discontinued the prosecution ie they notified the court that they had NO BILL ...
JM.
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"...What details are recorded for Lillian.....her age?....her parents' names?.....her birthplace?"
My interest is specifically what is recorded on the marriage record, 1891.
What is recorded on the marriage certificate, 1891, by Lillian, about her origins?
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HiThanks for that link Debra, but therein lies another problem. My cousin has been in touch with the NSW Baptist Archives and received this response;
"The only Broken Hill marriage register I can find is 1939-41. Prior to the 1940's the Baptist churches were in the South Australian Baptist Union who may have the register for 1891"
Have you contacted the Baptist Union of South Australia?
Also,
What info is recorded on the NSW birth cert of the first child to the couple after their marriage ... that should give you a possible start point, as it should give place of birth, and age for each of that baby's parents ....
JM.
The Baptist Union of South Australia dates back to the 1860s and their Archives ought to hold the registers for far western NSW circuits that were outreach from Adelaide and other churches in S.A.
Also the State Library of S.A. holds various Baptist registers in their Collections.
It is possible that all the depth of detail required by NSW legislation was NOT obtained by South Australian based clergy BUT the details should at least meet S.A. requirements so you should at least learn what James Ralph and also Lillian knew about their respective fathers.... that is vital info for your research, to either validate info you already have or as a start point as it is provided by themselves to the clergy.
JM
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jorose that's amazing and certainly could explain James Ralph's presence in NSW. It is certainly worth looking at more closely. I don't know how you all find these things.
The incidence of False Pretences is interesting and would certainly place him in NSW prior to the birth of his 1st child Nettalie May born 1889 in Wilcannia.
The place listed on Mary's 1896 birth certificate is written as' Torrowangee near Broken Hill'.
I'm a little confused as Tarrawingee as you've suggested, is in Northern Victoria near Wangaratta.
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wivenhoe I'm sorry I can't give you any more information than already given.
Frustratingly there is a disappointing lack of detail. Just their names, batchelor, spinster,contractor,dressmaker,witness names.....no names for parents, just a blank space.There are no ages and no birthplaces.
And this is the brick wall that ended my cousins' search for James Ralph's
parents 30 years ago. After no success either with is death certificate which stated, Mother and Father unknown, she posted a message 20 years ago asking for help and hoping to be able to access the church registers.
It was only after my father died recently that I began searching the Matthews line of my family.
In March a photograph of Ridgley School, Tas in 1911 with my grandfather and his 2 sisters also,and 4 pages of handwritten notes of memories from a couple of James Ralph's children, was the trigger to a curiosity that led me to encounter a 20 year old message floating around in cyberspace and meeting a cousin I never knew. Her Grandmother is Violet and my Grandfather is Walter Clem.
And so.....a journey begun in the mid 1800's has continued today with two cousins meeting and teaming up to find some answers to the mystery of who James Ralph's parents are.....
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Are you saying that the marriage certificate...where parents' names are recorded....you see the word "unknown".
What details are recorded for Lillian.....her age?....her parents' names?.....her birthplace?
Do you see blank space....a dash "-"....the word "unknown".....
The marriage certificate is very frustrating.
In the spaces for their place of birth, Ages , and their parent’s names and father’s occupation it is Just blank.
The marriage took place in the Manse if the Baptist Church, South Broken Hill.
I have contacted the Baptist church In Broken Hill, they couldn’t help, no response from Broken Hill historical society so far ( but they may be closed due to covid19 Restrictions)
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Re
1. the elusive blanks on the NSW m.c.
2. Tarrowangee, near Broken Hill.
1.
Some further links to help you fill in the elusive blanks on that NSW marriage cert or at least to support my suggestion to try South Australian resources.
https://guides.slsa.sa.gov.au/church_records and see their Fact Sheet : https://guides.slsa.sa.gov.au/ld.php?content_id=17256650 and at page 24 of 36 :
Various places SRG 465/50 1881-1936 Marriage registers kept by Rev George Hogden, Baptist minister, recording marriages at which he officiated in various places in the state. The registers give names, aged and residence of couples, names of father, place and date of marriage, and names and residence of witnesses.
So, at least one Baptist minister was on a circuit, and here we learn what information that clergyman was recording on his church register. :) So it should give you confidence that you may find your James Ralph's father noted on the church register that holds the original record. It is simply a matter of finding where that original record is held. Here is a starting point :
https://www.slsa.sa.gov.au/ask-us
Then there's:
https://www.familysearch.org/wiki/en/Australia_Church_Records
Then there's the late Nick Vine Hall :
https://catalogue.nla.gov.au/Record/1853101
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_Vine_Hall His list of parish register locations includes his research from more than 30 years ago.
2.
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=678243.0
Re Tarrowangee
It is in the Parish of Broken Hill, in the County of Farnell, and in the 'old' Land District of Willyama, and the 'old' Pastures Protection District of Broken Hill and the 'old' Local Government Authority of Western Districts.
See https://www.nswlrs.com.au/Parish-and-Historical-Maps
The (NSW) 1902 Electoral Roll for BARRIER has a polling place as Tarrowangee. Residential addresses include : Poolamacca, Mundi Mundi, Thompson's dam, Euriowie, Fowler's Gap, Trident, Umberunberka, Byferkerns, Allendale, Western Falls, Torrowangee, Hughenden, Quinyambie, Sandy Creek Bore ....
There were two police constables listed on the 1902 roll as residents at Torrowangee and also a post and telegraph master, a railway clerk, hotel keeper,
JM
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Oops, I missed including the following in my recent reply, and it has already been read several times so I will post a further reply :
https://catalogue.nla.gov.au/Record/2681166
Parish registers in Australia : a list of all known originals, transcripts, microforms & indexes of Australian parish registers / compiled & published by Nick Vine Hall
https://www.nla.gov.au/askalibrarian
JM
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Thankyou so much for your input majm. There's a lot there to check out. Awesome!
Have a few things to do before i can get back to some serious snooping today :)
But that is the plan for later.
;)
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Are you saying that the marriage certificate...where parents' names are recorded....you see the word "unknown".
What details are recorded for Lillian.....her age?....her parents' names?.....her birthplace?
Do you see blank space....a dash "-"....the word "unknown".....
The marriage certificate is very frustrating.
In the spaces for their place of birth, Ages , and their parent’s names and father’s occupation it is Just blank.
The marriage took place in the Manse if the Baptist Church, South Broken Hill.
I have contacted the Baptist church In Broken Hill, they couldn’t help, no response from Broken Hill historical society so far ( but they may be closed due to covid19 Restrictions)
Welcome to RootsChat,
It is a great place to find help on your family history quests. There are many many many rural NSW marriage certs in the years 1856 to 1895 that have those elusive blanks. If you read back through this thread you will find Debra (Dundee) posted a link to a thread I prepared quite some time ago re those elusive blanks. NSW BDM website continues to note that they have not ever completed the reconciliation process for their marriage registrations.
If you make two more posts, even just to say Hi, you will be able to access all the many aspects of this website, including sending Private Messages (PM).
JM
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The death certificate, 1922....what does it have for "years in the colony"....indication of what age James might have been when he left Victoria.
Exactly what is written for that information on the certificate please.
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Thank you very much , majm
Re the actual church register .. that’s what I am really hoping , that the very important information missing on the certificate will be on the actual church record
I have not had any success with my attempts so far but peggle and I can Work our way through your excellent suggestions
Thank you
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The death certificate, 1922....what does it have for "years in the colony"....indication of what age James might have been when he left Victoria.
Exactly what is written for that information on the certificate please.
It says
4 years in Victoria
57 years in other Australian states
He died in 1922
And his age at death says 61 years
😊
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From the NSW BDM documents
1. certified copy of the civil registration of the 1891 marriage, what is
a) name of the clergyman
b) the number in the unnamed column to the left of the first main column giving date and place? So I am asking for the number, if any, that may refer back to the original record .... So perhaps a search can seek out the couple married immediately before and after Mr and Mrs Matthews ... to check what the clergy recorded for those couples....
2. The birth certs for their children .... where the informant is James, what info is recorded about him... afterall that is first hand info. NSW bdm birth certs are usually informative, including the then age, occupation etc of each parent, and where each parent was born.
:) have you sent email enquiry to any organisation this week asking if the Nick Vine Hall book gives location for Broken Hill Baptist Church marriage register? ... if so, please share the outcomes...
JM
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Baptist Church in Beryl Street :
Barrier Miner, 25 March 1889 … https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/44041152
At a church meeting …. The local Baptist Church resolved … closed for one month … Rev Mr Coller … to Newtown, Sydney, no minister available at present … …. The local pastorate is under the control of the Baptist Association of Adelaide …. No reserve or relief supply of Baptist clergymen.
Barrier Miner, 9 May 1889 https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/44042831
Arrival of the Rev George Carter, who is to take charge of the local Baptist Church … until recently at Queenstown, near Port Adelaide. …
Baptist Church in Patton Street, South Broken Hill.
Barrier Miner 13 December 1890 https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/44060695
The opening services of the Baptist Church will be held at South Broken Hill tomorrow, followed by a tea and public meeting on Wednesday
So TWO Baptist Churches in greater Broken Hill by end of 1890
Barrier Miner, 20 December 1890 https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/44060981
The Rev G W Carter has resigned the pastorate of the Baptist Church, Broken Hill
Barrier Miner 20 Dec 1890 https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/44060962
….. The pastor, Rev E J Tuck, gave the treasurer’s report approximately “ Cost of church and land £116. A loan of £75 had been received from the S.A. Baptist Association, repayable …..
Beryl Street March 1891
Barrier Miner 28 March 1891 https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/44064965
At the Baptist Church, Beryl Street, the Rev J W Jones preaches in the morning, Rev T Allen in the afternoon, and the Rev G W Carter in the evening
A Wedding
Barrier Miner 1 April 1891 https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/44065068
Rev G W Carter of the Broken hill Baptist Church was yesterday married in Broken Hill to Miss Delaney. The couple left by the Adelaide express last night.
Honeymoon over, couple return to Beryl Street Baptist
Barrier Miner 18 April 1891 https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/44065862
A social … Beryl street Baptist Church, welcome Rev and Mrs G W Carter ….
The Baptist Church in Broken Hill South gets S.A. permission to enlarge.
Barrier Miner 7 Sept 1891 https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/44090497
The South Australian Baptist organ, Truth and Progress says “Mr E J Tuck met the committee in Adelaide last month in reference to the church at Broken Hill South being enlarged. Mr Tuck’s request was granted, and permission given him to collect subscriptions.’
So next
... I went looking at NSW BDM online index for marriages, restricting the district to ‘Broken Hill’ (so not just the municipal boundaries, nor the police district but the NSW BDM then boundaries …. Likely three very different administrative things).
Notice 1891 commences with registration no. 2863/1891 and is continuous through to 3142/1891 …. So likely the NSW BDM did not process these summary returns on the usual quarterly basis but on an annual basis.
The 1 April 1891 marriage of George W CARTER and Daisy M DELANEY/DELANY is reference number 2940. The 23 June 1891 marriage for James and Lillian is reference 2985.
Here is a link to a pdf showing that Broken Hill Patton Street (i.e. BH South) opened 1891 and closed 1940. http://www.baptisthistory.org.au/journals/listingofearlybaptistchurches
This pdf is found at the Baptist History organisation here :
http://www.baptisthistory.org.au/societies/nsw They have an extensive collection of documents, and the website notes that public access is available by contacting the Honorary Archivist. There is an email address there.
JM
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Oh, I have just noticed another thread
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=832241.0
JM
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Thank you very much for that information about the Broken Hill Baptist Church(es) , JM
I have always really hoped that it was just a matter of the transcription at the NSW BDM wasn’t complete, and that on the day of the wedding the Bride and Groom would have given the names of their parents ..
And that if we could find the record at the church, or from the church, we might manage to find the i formation that has us absolutely brick walled.
I did contact Baptisthistory.org.au
But they don’t hold those years, and said that Prior to the 1940s the Baptist churches were in the South Australian Baptist Union who may have the register for 1891.
I contacted the SA Baptist Union but the Historical record Team do not recall any documents being sent to BCSA from any of the Broken Hill churches.
They suggested I contact the Mortlock Library at SASL..
They could not find any of the records, and took my name and contact details and put my query in the list for the researchers/ archivists to have a look.
Which is why I began the separate thread re Baptist Church Records of Broken Hill, in the hope that Someone may pick up on that specific area of enquiry, rather than this thread which is also just looking for any information or suggestions re our research into James Ralph Matthews, to hell find his parents 😊
You have been such a great help JM, and Peggle and I are very grateful for everyone’s time and help.
I think I have been looking for this information for so long I feel I could easily miss something , as it Is such a roundabout , and it is easy to become confused as to what I have looked at already, and whether there are any obvious sources that I just haven’t found yet
So brain baffling ???
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And some unanswered questions :)
:) :) from the 1891 marriage, what was the name of the clergyman ? - sometimes the outback Baptist Reverends were known to transmit their records to Wesleyans back in that era .... (add, so if I have the name of the clergyman, I may be able to help further ...)
:) :) have you sought to obtain access to the Nick Vine Hall book? what does he have for any Broken Hill Wesleyan or Baptist or Congregational ceremonies in the 1890s... My copy of that book was lent to someone who has not returned it and I have phoned them, and they have not yet found it.
:) :) from the NSW BDM birth certs, when James Ralph was the informant, what information does he give about himself ... age/s, occupation/s, place/s of birth, etc ... - so not from Tas BDMs, and not when Lillian is the informant ... but when James Ralph is the informant... that will help the Tas RChatters with access to records NOT available online. At least one of the official transcription agents has $18 per registration on special this current long weekend (Queen's birthday long weekend 6-8 June 2020).
:) :) ADD ... and of course do try the State Library of South Australia and their reference SRG465/ ... etc
JM
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Hi there,
Just to clarify my earlier messages, while there is a Tarrawingee in Victoria, the Tarrawingee Tramway went to Tarrawingee, New South Wales, now a ghost town.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarrawingee,_New_South_Wales
The timing of the closure of the quarry fits very well with the movement of James Ralph Matthews (and his boss, James Stirling) to Tasmania.
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Hi Jorose,
I am sure that it is simply a spelling variation. I will snip an old map and post to show why.
JM
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And some unanswered questions :)
:) :) from the 1891 marriage, what was the name of the clergyman ? - sometimes the outback Baptist Reverends were known to transmit their records to Wesleyans back in that era .... (add, so if I have the name of the clergyman, I may be able to help further ...)
:) :) have you sought to obtain access to the Nick Vine Hall book? what does he have for any Broken Hill Wesleyan or Baptist or Congregational ceremonies in the 1890s... My copy of that book was lent to someone who has not returned it and I have phoned them, and they have not yet found it.
:) :) from the NSW BDM birth certs, when James Ralph was the informant, what information does he give about himself ... age/s, occupation/s, place/s of birth, etc ... - so not from Tas BDMs, and not when Lillian is the informant ... but when James Ralph is the informant... that will help the Tas RChatters with access to records NOT available online. At least one of the official transcription agents has $18 per registration on special this current long weekend (Queen's birthday long weekend 6-8 June 2020).
:) :) ADD ... and of course do try the State Library of South Australia and their reference SRG465/ ... etc
JM
*The clergyman was
Edward John Tayler Tuck
I am just in the midst of wrestling with my temperamental printer to consolidate the records I have, and then I can compile all of the information we have actually given by James Ralph Matthews 😊
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:) Here is an Obit for the clergyman. A careful read gives you some clues about where his registers may be, and it could be worthwhile persisting with several previous enquiries from past years, a change in the Archivist responsible for a set of records or for preparing indexes, or the development of a set of protocols for responding to enquiries can result in the re-discovery of material on their shelves or even as 'door stops' - yes, I have rescued a door stop when visiting an archive in the Sydney region ummm ... last century !
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/89644807 Chronicle, 26 June 1926.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/45940797 Barrier Miner 14 June 1926
Chronicle :
'it was as a Wesleyan home missionary that he went to Broken Hill where he labored for 37 years."
"As a result of his ministry in the Silver City, as Wesleyan, Baptist and Church of Christ minister ..... he officiated at over 3000 funerals and 2000 marriages ....
I have phoned some of my elderly rellies (one a retired NSW BDM senior officer, one a retired clergyman, one a retired Archivist) particularly re the Loyal Orange Lodge mentions (particularly in the Barrier Miner), and also to ask for his views about if it is likely that Rev Tuck kept his own 'register' across multiple denominations ... afterall, his 'licence' to marry couples in Broken Hill or elsewhere in NSW should be the authority from NSW Registrar General's Office, and not restricted to a particular denomination with the Broken Hill pastorates being part of outreach from South Australia.
It is possible that the 1891 marriage is recorded in a) Wesleyan and/or b) Churches of Christ and/or c) Baptist, registers and that the register could be archived in NSW and/or South Australia in any of those denominations or in the secular/civil resources ;) ;)
Wesleyan - Now known as Uniting Church
NSW https://directory.archivists.org.au/index.php/uniting-church-in-australia-synod-of-new-south-wales-and-the-act-archives-office
South Australia https://historicalsociety.unitingchurch.org.au/
Mr Google is your friend, so start with the Broken Hill Uniting Church, and the Broken Hill Church of Christ... and then consider asking for assistance via the Ask a Librarian services at state and federal levels as they are reliable and often are excellent.
If you are sending out email enquiries, may I suggest that you share with each of those Church organisations, a pdf of the actual copy issued by NSW BDM. The form is of course copyright to NSW BDM, but the information on that form is not copyright to NSW BDM, and it is in the layout drawn from the original summary sent to NSW BDM in the hand of the Rev Tuck so it could well be the key to a keen archivist noticing just the tiniest clue which could lead to the actual clergy register, particularly IF there is a number written in the un-named column to the left of the column headed "Date and place of marriage".
JM edited for Grammar and spelling and punctuation ::) :-[
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I have edited my recent post to correct some spelling, punctuation and grammar flaws so that it hopefully reads a tad better. It is often a worthwhile task to seek out those original clergy registers, not just for finding the elusive blanks on NSW marriages, but also to seek out baptisms and burials and to look at the entries on the same page and the one before and the one after. But if you cannot physically get to the actual register or if you are not familiar with protocol handling the fragile item, then it is sensible to seek out the Archivist who has custody of the item. In this instance, the starting line has been moved further back than it ought to be and it is very much still a hidden starting line.
::)
JM
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NSW Government Gazette 22 July 1890
Registrar General's Office, Sydney 17th July 1890
It is hereby notified that, in conformity with the provisions of the Acts of Countil, 19 Victoria Nos. 30 and 34, the undermentioned officiating Minister has been registered at this Office for the Celebration of Marriages :-
Baptist Church.
Reverend Edward John Taylor Tuck - residence, Broken Hill.
Charles Pinhey, Registrar General.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/224317269
Similiar 23 September 1892 https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/222205497
Then the full list 31 January 1893 https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/220965834/15767263 (page 994)
Baptist church (Connected with the Baptist Union)
(Name) Tuck Edward John Taylor, ***
(Residence) Broken Hill,
(Registry District) Broken Hill.
BUT
NSW Government Gazette 20 Nov 1907 page 6343 https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/226586098
It is hereby notified that in conformity with the provisions of the Registration of Births, Deaths, and Marriages Act, 1899 the undermentioned Officiating Ministers have been registered at this Office for the Celebration of Marriages:
No. 3233
Name Mr Edward John Taylor Tuck
Denomination Church of Christ (no. 1,100). Previously registered for Baptist Church (Union).
Residence Broken Hill
Date of Registration 15 Nov 1907
W.G.J-Williams
Registrar-General
JM *** Outside the Square thinking ... I wonder if someone has archived his records under 'TAYLOR' rather than 'TUCK' or mis-read TUCK for LUCK or TACK ...
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Thank you everyone for your input. The efforts that you all go to are so very much appreciated.
jorose,yes,I see that there is that place in NSW and agree with majm that it's most likely a spelling variation.The timing of the quarry closure does fit in with JRM's timeline for sure.
We've been handed a curveball from another cousin who has passed on some notes that her mother had.Some added information was shared also from another person......
The information is this;
Thomas Matthews married Mary Anne Walbey at St.David's Cathedral,Hobart,Tas 21 July 1856.
The children are;
William John Walby b.11 July 1854 Campbell Town, Tas. (Mary Anne is single, father is U Walbey).
Thomas Frederick Matthews b.23 June 1858 Campbell Town, d.1885 E. Melb
Mary Anne Matthews b.21 July 1859 Campbell Town.
James Ralph Matthews b.1861.
Francis b.11 February 1864, d.1870 Victoria.
Sarah Jane b.@8 March 1866, d.11 March 1867
Emily b.29 March 1868, d.1946 Royal Park,Vic
Thomas' occupation is brickmaker
Mary Anne was apparently a convict who was tried at the Bristol Assizes in 1 January 1852 and sentenced to 7 years for stealing. She was transported on the Duchess of Northumberland and arrived in VDL 1853.
So none of the above information is validated and is from 2 different informants.
We spent some time this week looking for a connection for James Ralph Matthews but were'nt able to find anything.
If JRM's mother was a convict, then it would be feasible that he could disown his parentage, considering the stigma and shame that went with it.
Also, Longford is not very far from Campbell Town and there were Female Factories in Campbell Town and nearby Ross.
So after a bit of searching and finding no connection, we discounted the info we'd been given....
And then again today, the list with the couple and their children was given to us again.....
Maybe we've missed something??? ::) :o ;D
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:) Here is an Obit for the clergyman. A careful read gives you some clues about where his registers may be, and it could be worthwhile persisting with several previous enquiries from past years, a change in the Archivist responsible for a set of records or for preparing indexes, or the development of a set of protocols for responding to enquiries can result in the re-discovery of material on their shelves or even as 'door stops' - yes, I have rescued a door stop when visiting an archive in the Sydney region ummm ... last century !
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/89644807 Chronicle, 26 June 1926.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/45940797 Barrier Miner 14 June 1926
Chronicle :
'it was as a Wesleyan home missionary that he went to Broken Hill where he labored for 37 years."
"As a result of his ministry in the Silver City, as Wesleyan, Baptist and Church of Christ minister ..... he officiated at over 3000 funerals and 2000 marriages ....
I have phoned some of my elderly rellies (one a retired NSW BDM senior officer, one a retired clergyman, one a retired Archivist) particularly re the Loyal Orange Lodge mentions (particularly in the Barrier Miner), and also to ask for his views about if it is likely that Rev Tuck kept his own 'register' across multiple denominations ... afterall, his 'licence' to marry couples in Broken Hill or elsewhere in NSW should be the authority from NSW Registrar General's Office, and not restricted to a particular denomination with the Broken Hill pastorates being part of outreach from South Australia.
It is possible that the 1891 marriage is recorded in a) Wesleyan and/or b) Churches of Christ and/or c) Baptist, registers and that the register could be archived in NSW and/or South Australia in any of those denominations or in the secular/civil resources ;) ;)
Wesleyan - Now known as Uniting Church
NSW https://directory.archivists.org.au/index.php/uniting-church-in-australia-synod-of-new-south-wales-and-the-act-archives-office
South Australia https://historicalsociety.unitingchurch.org.au/
Mr Google is your friend, so start with the Broken Hill Uniting Church, and the Broken Hill Church of Christ... and then consider asking for assistance via the Ask a Librarian services at state and federal levels as they are reliable and often are excellent.
If you are sending out email enquiries, may I suggest that you share with each of those Church organisations, a pdf of the actual copy issued by NSW BDM. The form is of course copyright to NSW BDM, but the information on that form is not copyright to NSW BDM, and it is in the layout drawn from the original summary sent to NSW BDM in the hand of the Rev Tuck so it could well be the key to a keen archivist noticing just the tiniest clue which could lead to the actual clergy register, particularly IF there is a number written in the un-named column to the left of the column headed "Date and place of marriage".
JM edited for Grammar and spelling and punctuation ::) :-[
Brilliant information and advice majm
I have never had a certificate that has omitted such important information
And
This marriage certificate has had me stuck for sooo long
Peggle and I can follow up your advice and see what we can find
Thank you so much 😊
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May I suggest that the concept of shame or stain in respect of convict parents/ grandparents simply did not exist in the ordinary folk in rural / regional NSW and is basically a creature of elitism developed in metropolitan Sydney post WWII.
I am 7th generation N.S. Wales born and bred. I was born 1947, western NSW. I did not hear of convict stains until I came to Sydney after completing High School. My Infants Head Mistress was proudly a grand daughter of a convict, who died in his old age and who was buried in our local cemetery.
I have discussed the origins of the concept of shame/stain with various Archivists, PhD students of NSW under Macquarie, authors of books about female convicts etc for perhaps 50 plus years. :) when I ask for historical systemic proof for mid to late 19th century .... early 20th century, I discover urban myths..... :)
JM
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From 1788 to 1853 ... females transported under sentence to the Aust colonies total abt 25,000. So abt 13,000 to VDL and 12,000 to NSW. So if you consider how many of them were still of marriageable age and residing in Tas even ten years after convictism had ceased to VDL ... far more females arrived in the colonies in the 1850s and 1860s .... suffering 'gold fever' than had arrived in the 70 plus years of convictism. :) many of those 1850s arrivals are extremely difficult to trace as so many passenger records show x number of steerage passengers, but not even the surnames, and arrivals to various ports on mainland, across in NZ need to be under consideration too. :) :) :)
But, I encourage you to seek out the original register for James' marriage, and avoid jumping back a generation in the interim. The dispute between Church and State re NSW marriage registrations raged for 4 plus decades. Many ... most .... of the marriage ceremonies for Sydney metro from that era were reconciled by NSW BDM teams in 1912-1915 ... but the project was set aside to release clerks to WWI efforts, including to AIF base records. Funding was not restored.... So many .. most remote, regional, rural NSW ceremonies ... missed out on NSWBDM reconciling their summary records with the original records. Nswbdm
senior management and also NSW Land Titles office senior management persisted for decades but no real outcomes to get the regional records reconciled. Pre internet, pre family history commercial websites, the volunteer groups formed back 'then' all understood how to seek out the original church registers. The late Nick Vine Halls efforts were not stand alone ones.
JM
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Tracking down that original marriage record is our most important task , as you say majm
😊
We will keep going with that search
It’s such a shame when an ancestor gets lost , through hard to find or destroyed records .. and when records are , as you say, very general and details like names and ages and birthplaces are simply not recorded
Lots for us to think about and try to find ..
thank you for taking the time to help us
Peggle and I really do appreciate all of the advice and assistance from everyone here 😊
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A thought !
You know that list of children to Thomas and Mary Anne ....
Well have you considered obtaining your own copy of the Vic BDM birth registration for the youngest child to that couple? You see, Vic BDM birth certs are very detailed, and like NSW and some of the other states/colonies, they include the names and ages of the older siblings ;D So James Ralph was NOT the eldest, but also he was NOT the youngest.... And Vic BDM has specials on their images at the moment.... $20 on a plastic card, and you can download immediately. :) :)
https://www.bdm.vic.gov.au/research-and-family-history/search-your-family-history
I should mention though, that your list has Sarah Jane 1866-1867 and the Vic BDM has her birth as ref 1611/1866 but mother as Mary Jane COWLEY and father as Thomas Gibbon MATHEWS and there are several Victoria births to the couple one as early 1861 ... and another for a James in 1862, but he is James Frederick MATHEWS (yes, ONE 'T' on the index) #19961/1862.
AND ....
Mary Jane COWLEY married Thomas Gibbon MATHEWS in 1860, marriage registered in Victoria, #3027/1860.
SO, I am supporting your view and simply put, I am not at all sure if your contacts have validated their sources.
JM
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The North West Post 18 Oct 1907 p3
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/199322167?
DEACON— MATTHEWS.
A quiet wedding took place at the residence of Mr J. G. MATTHEWS, Ridgley, on Wednesday morning, when Mr Arthur DEACON, son of Mr John DEACON, of St. Mary's Plains, was married to Nellie May, daughter of Mr James MATTHEWS. The Rev. J. T. Wilson officiated. The bride.....attended by Miss P. DEACON. The groomsman was Mr Ernest PEARCE......
This might be a typo error, but.....who is J G MATTHEWS?
BDM NSW
36060/1889 MATTHEWS Netallie May parents James Ralph / Lillian @ Wilcannia
(28 Nov 1889)
James and Lillian marry, 1891. Why did they not marry earlier?. Is James still married to a first wife?. No reason for them not to marry. If there is an earlier marriage, it might have just suited them to go their separate ways, both free to marry again.
What is the name Netallie about. Late 19th century is too early for Natalie as a girl's name.
Is it NETLEY / NUTLEY / NOTLEY / NODLEY.....a family name (surname) from an ancestor....family name of paternal / maternal grandmother?
Same with Tyrell, daughter born 1913. Is this a family name (surname)....TIRRELL / TERRILL / TYRELL?
To account for the possibly that these are family surnames, you need to know the names of Lillian's family. What family names do you have for Lillian's maternal and paternal grandmothers?
Forget the idea of the convict shame. Other than the socially aspirational, most folks did not try to hide a convict ancestor. They might not volunteer the information, but neither did they hide it. There was no point....so many people had a convict ancestor in Tasmania that it was not necessary.
After about the first world war people became sensitive about convict ancestry.
If you are receiving information from other researchers you need to identify the source.
And I am still interested in how he was able to own a large brick house in Melbourne. James is not a farmer so I suspect that the land he sold in Tasmania was not worth much.
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Netallie May was The name of Lillian’s eldest daughter ..
I have no idea ( yet) where the name Netallie came from
But I knew her as Aunty Net ( she was my great aunt )
As you say, Netallie and Tyrell are unusual names
We have not yet come across anything to give us an idea as to where those names are from/ who they are named after
Apart from our own research , Peggle and I are certainly taking information from family members as ‘interesting ‘ until proven by sources...
8)
We haven’t yet tracked down the family of Lillian, past her mother and father..
Another thing in our list of things to do :)
But Lillian did use a lot of her family names for her children , naming a number of them after her siblings and her father and mother
Those two unusual names, Netallie and Tyrell might very well turn up as family names 😊
We are not sure how James Ralph and Lillian were able to Afford a nice big house in Ascot Vale when they came to Victoria from Tasmania.
Our thinking was that perhaps as an engine driver he was getting a relatively good wage
And also for a time (as far as family stories tell us) The family were living at the station masters house at Ridgley..
I am really not sure at all how they would have much money, with such a large family especially..
That wedding was Netallie, as she became Mrs Deacon
And that initial is probably be a typo , as it is surely the home of Her father James Ralph Matthews ?
😊
Once again, so much fantastic help and brain storming for us to look at
Thank you
;)
We are working our way through your suggestions and finds..
It’s amazing what you are able to find
It is incredible
:)
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Netallie is a place/area west of Wilcannia on the way to Broken Hill.
https://www.exploroz.com/places/15088/nsw+netallie
M
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Netallie is a place/area west of Wilcannia on the way to Broken Hill.
https://www.exploroz.com/places/15088/nsw+netallie
M
It IS :o
It’s a Station :o
Thank you M..that is an amazing find!
Fancy, they named her after the Station ...I wonder whether they were living and working on Netallie Station?
thank goodness they didn’t name James Robert b1891 after the Station where he was born
Poolamacca Station ;D
(Being called Poolamacca Matthews would have been a conversation starter :D)
Thanks M..you have solved that question re the unusual name of Netallie
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Netallie is a place/area west of Wilcannia on the way to Broken Hill.
https://www.exploroz.com/places/15088/nsw+netallie
M
It IS :o
It’s a Station :o
Thank you M..that is an amazing find!
Fancy, they named her after the Station ...I wonder whether they were living and working on Netallie Station?
thank goodness they didn’t name James Robert b1891 after the Station where he was born
Poolamacca Station ;D
(Being called Poolamacca Matthews would have been a conversation starter :D)
Thanks M..you have solved that question re the unusual name of Netallie
7
From her NSW birth cert what info does it give about where she was born ... also about both her parents .... who was the informant, and what info is recorded on that document about when where her parents had been married.. please only provide what is actually recorded on her NSW birth registration.
Those Pastoral Leases for Western Districts are usually found in various historic records .... :) the old Rootsweb may have clues.
The digitised images of the civil parish maps should also be available on line.
Well found M, re Netallie, ;D Trove newspapers and Government Gazettes would provide info too, and the Sands Pastoral Directories too. I think I may have been researching the Grasmere Run some years ago, re Shearers strikes over NZ blades ...
JM
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I am on my e reader so cannot do live links.
Netallie ... it is on a Travelling Stock Route :) goggle H E C Robinson's NSW maps .... online via national library of Australia ... pastoral maps and find Wilcannia... look to left of Wilcannia, (west) ... no frontage to the Darling. One of my family lines has several generations from mid 1870s just upstream on eastern side of the Darling.
JM please excuse spelling, one finger typing is not my forte, especially when IT wants to predict the word ... Netallie ... ;D ;D Metallic ... yep ... backspacing in little dialogue boxes... ummm... ::)
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https://nla.gov.au/nla.obj-234025958/view
There's the excellent Zoom option ;D at that link.
JM
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One of my ancient rellies has just phoned me to remind me that Poolamacca was once held in the name of GOODE and that while it may be a co-incidence, that the Clara MATTHEWS in Hood St Wilcannia may have been a GOODE or previously married to a GOODE. If so, 'follow the money' is a good rule to consider.
https://www.terrycallaghan.com/resources-pastoral-holdings-1900/
JM
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It’s like following a ball of string , isn’t it ;D
From Netallie’s birth certificate
Netallie May
28 Nov 1889
POB Hood Street, Wilcannia :o
Informant was J R Matthews Father
father: Matthews
James Ralph
Bootmaker
Age 25 years
POB Longford, Tas
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It would probably be better to start a new thread re Lillian's parents. There seems quite a lot of info around.
Her parents probably came to Port Phillip in May, 1857, per the ship Grand Trianon, departing Southampton
The passenger list shows:
Nationality: English
Robert TIFFEN, 33, ag lab, from Norfolk
Mary A, 25
Clan?/Clem??/Clim, 2
Robert - BOB (born on board)
The disposal list shows that they were not engaged by an an employer but were "on own account" and left to Forest Creek.
Judith
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That is our great grandmothers Tiffen family, Judith.
They named their baby born on board Robert Trianon, after the ship . (Sadly, he died aged 9months)
Lillian was born near Castlemaine in 1870..
The eldest child who came to Australia with their parents was Clem, looks like Clim on the ship list, who was their daughter..Clementine.
Lillian named one of her sons after Her sister Clem, and it was a name passed down in the family for another generation . 😊
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It’s like following a ball of string , isn’t it ;D
From Netallie’s birth certificate
Netallie May
28 Nov 1889
POB Hood Street, Wilcannia :o
Informant was J R Matthews Father
father: Matthews
James Ralph
Bootmaker
Age 25 years
POB Longford, Tas
There seems to be some missing info. What info did James proviide about baby's mother, and where when they had married.... yes, what was actually recorded... yes I realise there is the actual official record .... but what does the b.c. record .... it could be helpful in any consideration as to his integrity ... or lead to finding an impediment.
PS I agree with Judith.... New thread for searching for Lillians ancestors.
:)
JM
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Also, the NSW birth cert should name the midwife and or doctor and or one other. Sometimes ... often times a Female relative is found there. Who is named in that section please on Netallies birth.
Doctor Sides may have been the Dr. :) He delivered my Great grandfather and his siblings :)
JM
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So much has happened since Mem222 and I found each other at the beginning of May last month ;D
To begin, we have had very little in validated sources, but have been very busy trying to obtain documents to verify information we've received, as we know how important it is to back up what we believe with truthful evidence.
There's so much tumbling around and trying to keep the ball of string untangled is so confusing at times.
We've shared some of the stuff thats's just been from simple hand written notes 2 of James Ralph's children had and the family memories we've gathered, hoping they will give clues to find things.
A note we have and don't know the source of this information, sorry,
is;
'House that Mr and Mrs James Ralph Matthews lived in for a time
203 St.Leonards Rd Ascot Vale
Melbourne
Brick House with 8 rooms
19 ft. 5 inches frontage x 150 foot depth.
(Possibly Terrace House)
Bought about 1922
400 pounds
Will of James consisted of
Policy for 52 pounds
Piano, Silver Watch, other furniture
Value 476 pounds 2 shillings.
I have a little difficulty trying to find things online,but will endeavour to follow up on accesssing a copy of James Will.....
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Also, the NSW birth cert should name the midwife and or doctor and or one other. Sometimes ... often times a Female relative is found there. Who is named in that section please on Netallies birth.
Doctor Sides may have been the Dr. :) He delivered my Great grandfather and his siblings :)
JM
Whoops..sorry..I thought I had included the rest of the info
Mother
Family Name TIFFIN
Family name at Birth TIFFIN
Given name LILLIAN
Age 20 years
POB Castlemaine Vic
(James and Lillian married in 1891..a Month before their 2nd child James Robert was born oat Poolamacca station )
There is no other information..apart from
Registering Authority J Mackins, District Registrar 01 December 1889
Hmmm...is what we have just an extract ?
Is is not a full birth certificate ?
It is all typed up, not handwritten like the others
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It would probably be better to start a new thread re Lillian's parents. There seems quite a lot of info around.
Her parents probably came to Port Phillip in May, 1857, per the ship Grand Trianon, departing Southampton
The passenger list shows:
Nationality: English
Robert TIFFEN, 33, ag lab, from Norfolk
Mary A, 25
Clan?/Clem??/Clim, 2
Robert - BOB (born on board)
The disposal list shows that they were not engaged by an an employer but were "on own account" and left to Forest Creek.
Judith
Yes,That is a good idea, Judith..re not confusing this thread too much with mentions of our Tiffen family.😊
I think we have included them at times to aid in filling out the info we have , as we are really mainly stuck with James Ralph Matthews ( and his parents and siblings ), so Peggle and I try to keep our brains on the Matthews track ...not very successfully ;D
:)
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No, you likely have a typed document because of either a) the NSWBDM document was issued back in 1970s or 1980s or b) the original document has become fragile and digitising it may damage it.
An extract issued by NSWBDM would not have that much detail.
BUT there is something very special to notice and to remember.
James is truthful, and a man of integrity and principles.
He knows he is baby's father, he goes along and he registers baby and he does not invent a marriage. He also knows babys mother is not yet old enough to give her own consent to marry him.
That is a very important document.
JM
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I came across the following linc in searching for more information about the 2 witnesses at the marriage of James Ralph Matthews and Lillian Tiffen.
They are David Pinnuck and Johanna Pinnuck.
(I'm not sure if this is allowed)
http://www.nzrcranes.org/genealogy/geyer.html
What I found in this article was very interesting in regards to the possible connections between
Mr and Mrs James Ralph Matthews and the Pinnucks.
Johanna had been working as a nurse, her family home was once in Hood St. (once referred to as Sth. Broken Hill) and she also lived in Wilcannia.
Interestingly, she also had a sister with the name of Victoria Netley (by her fathers second mariage), who was born at Netley Station in October 1866.
There also seems to be a suggestion there may be another odd connection to one of James Ralph's daughters, but that's quite a bit off on another tangent and just a seed of a thought at this stage.... :o
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You have a typed document for the birth record, 1889. There should be another date....when the document was created. Did someone get this document....1945...2001...when?. Who was it issued by?
When and where was the birth registered?
Meggle and Memm....
Where you have BDM certificates, and you give this information to a forum, you need to give all the information........every name, age, address, occupation, place name, date, witness, informant....everything........not just selected bits that you think are useful to know.
Can you please list the information.......not just discuss it in a sentence. As a list, you can see if you have included everything.
Any relevant comments about the presentation of the information...ie....something crossed out ...added later, written over.......should be made separately...after you have listed the information.
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I love your insight there , Jm
Re James Ralph Matthews as the informant
Very interesting
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'House that Mr and Mrs James Ralph Matthews lived in for a time
203 St.Leonards Rd Ascot Vale
Melbourne
Brick House with 8 rooms
19 ft. 5 inches frontage x 150 foot depth.
(Possibly Terrace House)
Bought about 1922
400 pounds
Will of James consisted of
Policy for 52 pounds
Piano, Silver Watch, other furniture
Value 476 pounds 2 shillings.
The electoral roll for Victoria in 1919 shows the couple James Ralph and Lillian at the 203 St Leonards Rd Ascot Vale address. So earlier than you thought.
They are there also in 1921 with others of the family
After James' death, by 1925 Lillian is at another number in the same road with family and by 1934 they appear to be at Yarra Junction.
I am happy to type up the details of the roll if of interest.
Sue
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That is excellent information , Sue
If you get time to type out those addresses we would be very grateful
No rush ;)
Just if you get the chance
Thank you :)
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majm, thanks for the link to the map of Pastoral Stations.
That is amazingly detailed! Good one to have as reference to where's what
Cheers Peg
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wivenhoe here are all the details of the Birth Certificate for Netallie May Matthews;
Registration Number 36060/1889
1. CHILD
Family Name: Matthews
Given Names: Netallie May
Sex: Female
Date of Birth: 28 November 1889
Place of Birth: Hood Street,Wilcannia
2.MOTHER
Family Name: Tiffen
Family Name at Birth: Tiffen
Given Name: Lillian
Occupation: -
Age: 20
Place of Birth: Castlemaine, Vic
3.FATHER
Family Name: Matthews
Given Names: James Ralph
Occupation: Bootmaker
Age: 25 years
Place of Birth: Longford, Tas
4. MARRIAGE OF PARENTS
Date of Marriage: Blank
Place of Marriage: Blank
5. PREVIOUS CHILDREN OF RELATIONSHIP Not Any
6. INFORMANT
Name: JR Matthews
Address: Wilcannia Father
REGISTERING AUTHORITY
Name: J Mackins ,District Registrar
Date: 01 December 1889
8.ENDORSEMENTS Not Any
I obtained this document from NSW Registry of Births, Deaths and Marriages Sydney
on 2 June 2020 via an on line down load.
Cheers,
Peg
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Here are the Victorian electoral roll particulars as mentioned.
I do not definitely see Lillian after 1934. There are more than one Lillian MATTHEWS. Others of the family are traceable.
I can follow them up if you like, but may be not relevant.
1919
Address 203 St Leonards Rd Ascot Vale
MATTHEWS, Lillian HD
MATTHEWS, James Ralph, eng. driver
1921
Address 203 St Leonards Rd Ascot Vale
MATTHEWS, Lillian HD
MATHEWS, James Ralph, eng. Driver
MATTHEWS, James Robert. Labourer
MATTHEWS, Herbert William Labourer
1925
Address 203 St Leonards Rd Ascot Vale
MATTHEWS, Walter Clem. Engineer
Address 129 St Leonards Rd Ascot Vale
MATTHEWS, Nora Ellen. HD
MATTHEWS, Lillian HD
MATTHEWS, James Robert. Labourer
MATTEWS Herbert William, Labourer
1927
Address. 73 Eglington Street Moonee Ponds.
MATTHEWS James Robert. Labourer
MATTHEWS, Herbert William. Labourer
MATTHEWS, Violet. HD
MATTHEWS, Ollie. HD
MATTHEWS, Nora Ellen HD
MATTHEWS, Lillian, HD
1934
Address, Yarrra Junction. No details.
MATTHEWS, Lillian HD,
MATTHEWS, Walter Clem. Labourer
MATTHEWS, Herbert William. Labourer
Sue
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Your James Ralph MATTHEWS describes himself as a bootmaker. Wilcannia and Broken Hill were large towns. There would be many bootmakers around, and I do not think you would compete with others if he did not have some competence in the trade. Did he start life as a bootmaker?
People in Broken Hill had better / easier contact with Adelaide than with Sydney so you find Broken Hill people.....matters....business....in the South Australian papers. It would be useful to extend your search options into South Australia.
Does any of this lead anywhere....I do not know if George, compositor....and George 99th Regiment are the same person....MATTHEWS....Wilcannia.....Tasmania....are interesting.
Evening Journal 1 Nov 1882 p2
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/197777348?
MATTHEWS—BARTHOLOMEW.—On the 30th August, at Wilcannia Hotel, by the Rev. M. Macnamara, John Henry, second son of George MATTHEWS, compositor, Richmond, Victoria, to Emily Jane, second daughter of Mr. J. J. BARTHOLOMEW, farmer, Crystal Brook, S. A.
NSW BDM
6767/1882 MATHEWS John Henry marr. BOOTHOHOUND Jane Emily @ Wilcannia
The Age 27 Jun 1894 p1
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/197468943?
MATTHEWS.— At the residence of his son, No. 135 Barkly-street, Carlton, George Matthews, compositor, the loving husband of Mary Matthews, aged 58 years. Sydney papers please copy.
The Argus 22 Jun 1900 p1
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/result?
MATTHEWS.—On the 20th June, at her residence, 209 Burnley-street, Richmond, Mary, relict of
the late George Matthews, of the 99th Regiment, aged 79 years, late of Hobart. Rest in peace.
Tasmanian papers please copy.
The Australasian 11 Feb 1911 p63
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/142939109?
MAITHEW'S,-At her residence, 209 Burnley-street Richmond, Margaret, the eldest daughter of the
late Mar and George MATTHEWS of the 99th Regiment Hobart
BDM VIC death
5231/1894 MATTHEWS Geo parents Sarah ONER / Geo
died Carl age 58
7027/1900 MATTHEWS Mary parents Bridt MCDONALD / Mccarthy Peter
died Rmond age 79
2935/1911 MATTHEWS Margt parents Mary MCCARTHY / Matthews Geo
died Rmond age 66
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There was a George MATTHEWS a Convict Exile per the Thomas Arbuthnot to Melbourne 4 May 1847. Tried 12 May 1845, sentenced to 10 years.
And that immediately reminded me of BAC3, Tony, and his research on the Exiles transported to Port Phillip from Pentonville and the Parkhurst Boys .... and the many threads where we were all helping to advance the information about those lads... :)
And so I also remember that earlier on this thread there was mention of a Thomas MATTHEWS as a possible father for James Ralph MATTHEWS .... and again RChat's own search engine has come in handy. I quote : .....
I was given some extremely invaluable help last year by two descendants of Thomas MATTHEWS in compiling his Biography as part of my research for a PhD on Parkhurst Prison 1838-1864 and the reform of juvenile offenders.
.....
JM
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Thank you for listing the information on the birth certificate, 1889.
It used to be, I not sure about now, that BDM would issue a birth extract. People would have use of such a document when they only needed to establish their identity, and the other information on the birth certificate did not need to be seen by......employer.....bank.....educational institution etc. The extract would not show details of parents' marriage. That is my interest to know what document you have.
The full record that you have has no details for marriage. It is a shame that James did not invent a marriage date. A fabricated marriage date can be are really useful, and not to be discounted entirely. It might carry a clue.
The day and month will be of significance to the informant....easy to remember now, and for next time. The year will just describe baby to be born to a mother who was not pregnant when she, supposedly, married.
You see this also with eg enlistment for WW1 / WW2. Day and month of birth are correct....year suits the purpose. It is just what people do when they have to make up something.
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Sue thankyou so much for that.
It's interesting that the only person living in the house in 1925 at 203 St.Leonards Road, Ascot Vale (after James Ralph Matthews died in 1922), was the son Walter Clem and I see his occupation as Engineer....
That's an interesting description because as my Grandfather I only ever knew him as a Motor Mechanic. And why would the other siblings not still be living there, I wonder?....The house was certainly substantial enough to contain them all.
We know that Lillian eventually settled in Yarra Junction as we found her there as indicated by the details on her daughter Olive's death notice from The Advocate (Burnie) newspaper dated Thursday 12 May 1938 which said that Olive died 'at her mother's residence, Yarra Junction.
And also from Olive's death certificate, dated 9 May 1938 and the place of death is Yarra Junction.
It would be nice to know why Lillian decided to move out into the country.......
Peg
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wivenhoe you've got an interesting thought there, thank you.
It's something that hurts my brain ??? trying to piece together what transpired in James Ralph's life before he was married as that seems to be the only validated event that we can see.
How can we possibly connect him to the 'other' Matthews people as there seems to be alot of them in and around Emu, Burnie and Broken Hill also? Not to mention Hobart of course.
Peg
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These are the details written on a copy of a certificate we were given the other day by a cousin;
Permit As Engine-Driver For Land Engines. No.257
Inspection Of Machinery Department
Tasmania
To James Ralph Matthews,
I, E.S.Ross, Chief Inspector of Machinery, being satisfied that you have the requisite
knowledge and experience to entitle you to be entrusted with the Charge and Control of
steam engines & boilers, not exceeding eight (8) (*something) H.P.
do hereby, under and by virtue of the provision of Section 12 of the "Inspection of Machinery
Act, 1902", grant you this Permit as Engine-driver.
Witness my hand..........(signature)
Chief Inspector of Machinery,Tasmania.
(over)
30/6/11
We don't know what is on the 'over' side.
Peg
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if that reads 8 horse power then is likely to be a small stationary engine ... perhaps around 6 kilowatts... :D
JM
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At the LPI website there’s the option to seek out the digitised historical parish maps.
There is a single sheet map for Pastoral Run Outer Netallie, shows some improvements to that Run, including tanks, wells etc with dates for some of those features. Note that ’89 is for 1889.
https://www.nswlrs.com.au/Parish-and-Historical-Maps
then click on the ‘Historical Land Records Viewer’ Historical Land Records Viewer. You need to scroll down and then to select Accept. Then in the search option there, type “Pastoral Run Outer Netallie’ Same for Poolamacca (it has two sheets, sheet 1 and sheet 2) The tanks and the wells on many of those Pastural Runs were actually completed in the late 1800s … so too were the irrigation channels off the Darling River.
JM
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Sue thankyou so much for that.
It's interesting that the only person living in the house in 1925 at 203 St.Leonards Road, Ascot Vale (after James Ralph Matthews died in 1922), was the son Walter Clem and I see his occupation as Engineer....
That's an interesting description because as my Grandfather I only ever knew him as a Motor Mechanic. And why would the other siblings not still be living there, I wonder?....The house was certainly substantial enough to contain them all.
We know that Lillian eventually settled in Yarra Junction as we found her there as indicated by the details on her daughter Olive's death notice from The Advocate (Burnie) newspaper dated Thursday 12 May 1938 which said that Olive died 'at her mother's residence, Yarra Junction.
And also from Olive's death certificate, dated 9 May 1938 and the place of death is Yarra Junction.
It would be nice to know why Lillian decided to move out into the country.......
Peg
Hi.
Being registered to vote at an address by no means guarantees one is living there!
Quite possibly he was the only one of the family who failed to change his address on the roll after the move.
In this death notice for Tyrell BARKER, who is sister Dorrie? She would make child number 13
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/69185194
Sue
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Here are the Victorian electoral roll particulars as mentioned.
I do not definitely see Lillian after 1934. There are more than one Lillian MATTHEWS. Others of the family are traceable.
I can follow them up if you like, but may be not relevant.
1919
Address 203 St Leonards Rd Ascot Vale
MATTHEWS, Lillian HD
MATTHEWS, James Ralph, eng. driver
1921
Address 203 St Leonards Rd Ascot Vale
MATTHEWS, Lillian HD
MATHEWS, James Ralph, eng. Driver
MATTHEWS, James Robert. Labourer
MATTHEWS, Herbert William Labourer
1925
Address 203 St Leonards Rd Ascot Vale
MATTHEWS, Walter Clem. Engineer
Address 129 St Leonards Rd Ascot Vale
MATTHEWS, Nora Ellen. HD
MATTHEWS, Lillian HD
MATTHEWS, James Robert. Labourer
MATTEWS Herbert William, Labourer
1927
Address. 73 Eglington Street Moonee Ponds.
MATTHEWS James Robert. Labourer
MATTHEWS, Herbert William. Labourer
MATTHEWS, Violet. HD
MATTHEWS, Ollie. HD
MATTHEWS, Nora Ellen HD
MATTHEWS, Lillian, HD
1934
Address, Yarrra Junction. No details.
MATTHEWS, Lillian HD,
MATTHEWS, Walter Clem. Labourer
MATTHEWS, Herbert William. Labourer
Sue
Brilliant , Sue
Thank you
We will happily add that information to our family story .. would be interesting to see whether any of those houses are still there
😊
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My interest in 203 St Leonards Rd Ascot Vale, is the possibility that someone died and left James Ralph MATTHEWS this house. That, and / or his failing health, might be the reason for this family moving to Victoria.
Who owned this house before James Ralph MATTHEWS? It probably had a house name rather than street number.
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Use Ancestry Electoral Rolls....Ascot Vale....search....203.....
1917 at 203 St Leonards Rd Ascotvale
SLOCOMBE John trainer
SLOCOMBE Kathleen home duties
SLOCOMBE William Henry boilermaker
SLOCOMBE William H jnr labourer
BDM VIC birth
23735/1882 SLOCOMBE William Henry parents Katey MATHEW / William
@ HOTH
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Sue thank you for that.
I didn't consider that the not changing the registered voting address could be the reason and it makes perfect sense. Would the house have been unoccupied for the year 1925 possibly as i would assume someone else's name would appear for that time?
Dorrie, is a little bit of a mystery ??? We believe she may be the daughter of
Ivy Lily b. 4 Jan 1894 (NSW BDM Registration Number 8010/1894)
Ivy Lily became Mrs Ivory.
All we know is that Dorrie lived with the family. She married a Paxton and had 2 children, we are told. She then had a second husband.
Sorry, if that's a bit word of mouth/ chinese whisper stuff but Dorrie is a bit of a puzzle.
Peg
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wivenhoe, that's a very smart tactic ;D
It could certainly offer something up......
but........... there is that family note that says the house was bought for 400 pounds???
Peg
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It is possible that the house was purchased from a family member.
Use Ancestry Electoral Rolls....Ascot Vale....search....203.....
1917 at 203 St Leonards Rd Ascotvale
SLOCOMBE John trainer
SLOCOMBE Kathleen home duties
SLOCOMBE William Henry boilermaker
SLOCOMBE William H jnr labourer
BDM VIC birth
23735/1882 SLOCOMBE William Henry parents Katey MATHEW / William
@ HOTH
That Vic birth cert would likely give good info about Katey including where born, where married. Then the marriage would give details of her parents. May I also suggest a good online search for the index ref for Kateys likely death .. ... and then find possible newspaper announcements.... before spending $20 per Vic bdm ....
JM
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VIC BDM marriage
2925/1873 NATHAN Catherine Mary Anne marr. SLOCOMBE, William Henry
births
16431/1877 SLOCOMBE Eleanor Jane parents Kate NEATON / William Henry
@ Hotham
9493/1880 SLOCOMBE Victoria Ethel parents Kate NATHAN / Wm Hy
@ Hotham
23735/1882 SLOCOMBE William Henry parents Katey MATHEW / William
@ Hotham
29298/1887 SLOCOMBE George parents Catherine NETON / William Henry
@ Hotham
deaths
2002/1882 SLOCOMBE Mary Ann parents Cath NEWTON / Wm Hy
@ Hotham age 8
14083/1887 SLOCOMBE
George parents Catherine NETON / William Henry
@ Hotham age 5 months
11264/1891 SLOCOMBE Virginia parents Cath NETON / Slocombe Wm
@ Melb Hosp age 2
2427/1938 SLOCOMBE William Henry parents Kathleen NEATON / SLOCOMBE William
@ Newmarkey age 56
14717/1923 SLOCOMBE Kathleen parents Mary EGAN / MATON Laurence
@ Essendon age 72 (born ~ 1851)
Herald 17 Dec 1923 p17
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/243492975?
SLOCOMBE. — On the 10th December, at 8 Normanhy street, Moonee Ponds, Kate, dearly be
loved wife of William H. SLOCOMBE, and mother of Nellie, Ethel, Willie and Jack; eldest
daughter of the late Lawrence No*ton. late of N. Melb,, and loving sister of Mrs G. Ferguson.
marriage
1766/1861 EGAN Mary marr. MATHEWS, Peter
birth
16725 / 1865 NEATON Margaret Jane parents Mary EGAN / Laurence
@ Melb
marriage
2087/1881 NEATON, Elizabeth marr. FERGUSON George
death
12247/1890 NEATON Mary Egan Jno
@ Hoth W age 61
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woops.....but now I'm totally confused, sorry. :o
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me too but I am sure wivenhoe is considering if there's dots to join up :
Herald 17 Dec 1923 p17
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/243492975? so likely that would be the death on Vic BDM indexed as registered in 1923 for a Kathleen SLOCOMBE, aged 72, died Essendon, ref 13717. That index has her parents as Mary EGAN and Laurence MATON.
and also from that same notice in the Herald of 17 Dec 1923, wivenhoe has found a possible birth for 'Willie' .... and Katy's maiden name there is recorded as MATHEW... as in :
Vic BDM has a birth registered for a William Henry SLOCOMBE at 'Hoth" in 1882 with parents as Katy MATHEW and William SLOCOMBE, ref 23735.
I wonder if 'Hoth' would be Hotham...
So wivenhoe has found the VIC BDM marriage
2925/1873 NATHAN Catherine Mary Anne marr. SLOCOMBE, William Henry
Remember that most of the 19th century bdm records are written out in long hand. So there's every possibility that the handwriting in quill and ink has a) faded or b) bled or c) been scratched or d) been scribbled or e) been creased or otherwise damaged.
If these Vic BDMs that wivenhoe has listed were for example from NSW BDM in the same years, I am absolutely sure that there would be huge variations in the index searches ... spelling mistakes will be the least issue ... you see in NSW the births would be registered by one or both parents attending the admin section of a court house or similar, standing in a long queue of people , seeking to get the attention of the 'Clerk of Petty Sessions' or the Sheriff or the paperpusher behind the tall and wide counter. When that paperpusher male person finally realises there's an 'easy' process to handle in the queue he lifts out his very large 'ledger' and turns it to face himself. So in front of all the others queued up, he speaks out loudly "You, wanting to register a birth, move here in front of me' .... and with the ledger facing himself he fills in the details (this is likely how James registered Netallie's birth in Wilcannia)... Asking each question loudly and writing the answer down in the book (no pro forma paperwork, all oral, verbal etc) ... so once he is satisfied he has all the info he wants ... he then swings the ledger book around and says "sign here"... he does not say 'read everything back aloud to confirm I wrote it all correctly' ... he doesnt even say 'check first' ...
So MATHEW could be mis-read as NEATON or MATON or NATON or vice versa.... ;D
Cheers, JM
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I think NEATON will be confirmed as the correct nee name for Kate SLOCOMBE.
Wivenhoe has posted the death notice.
Again-
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/243492975
Lawrence NEATON had several children in Victoria.
For a moment I thought there may be a connection to Dorothy (nee MATTHEWS) NEASON/NEESON daughter of James and Lillian born round 1897.
However, as it turns out, her correct married name was NEASEY.
Death
Dorothy Marion L NEASEY
Age 64
At Fitzroy, Victoria
Parents James MATHEWS & Lilian TIFFEN
Year 1961
6692
Her marriage was recorded in Victoria in 1919
Sue
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Catherine SLOCOMBE, who lives at 203 St Leonards Rd Ascot Vale, has MATTHEW origins.
Her mother, Ann EGAN, marries Peter MATHEW, 1861, which would be after the birth of Catherine, from Catherine's age indicated at her death.
By a later marriage Ann marries Laurence NEATON, and this marriage produces the several NEATONs named.
Are Catherine's MATTHEW ancestors, and the MATTHEWS ancestors of your James Ralph MATTHEWS related? Or...just a coincidence of names.
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Dorrie, is a little bit of a mystery ??? We believe she may be the daughter of
Ivy Lily b. 4 Jan 1894 (NSW BDM Registration Number 8010/1894)
Ivy Lily became Mrs Ivory.
All we know is that Dorrie lived with the family of MATTHEWS. She married a Paxton and had 2 children, we are told. She then had a second husband.
Sorry, if that's a bit word of mouth/ chinese whisper stuff but Dorrie is a bit of a puzzle.
Peg
Information about Dorrie is available.
I am just concerned that the topic you have set out to discuss is the parentage of George EDIT James Ralph MATTHEWS and that digressing on to a search for Dorrie may be a distraction from the point.
Maybe a separate topic could be started with link to this one. It could revolve around the wider family
Up to you when/if you wish.
Sue
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Thank you everyone for your input. The efforts that you all go to are so very much appreciated.
jorose,yes,I see that there is that place in NSW and agree with majm that it's most likely a spelling variation.The timing of the quarry closure does fit in with JRM's timeline for sure.
We've been handed a curveball from another cousin who has passed on some notes that her mother had.Some added information was shared also from another person......
The information is this;
Thomas Matthews married Mary Anne Walbey at St.David's Cathedral,Hobart,Tas 21 July 1856.
The children are;
William John Walby b.11 July 1854 Campbell Town, Tas. (Mary Anne is single, father is U Walbey).
Thomas Frederick Matthews b.23 June 1858 Campbell Town, d.1885 E. Melb
Mary Anne Matthews b.21 July 1859 Campbell Town.
James Ralph Matthews b.1861.
Francis b.11 February 1864, d.1870 Victoria.
Sarah Jane b.@8 March 1866, d.11 March 1867
Emily b.29 March 1868, d.1946 Royal Park,Vic
Thomas' occupation is brickmaker
Mary Anne was apparently a convict who was tried at the Bristol Assizes in 1 January 1852 and sentenced to 7 years for stealing. She was transported on the Duchess of Northumberland and arrived in VDL 1853.
So none of the above information is validated and is from 2 different informants.
We spent some time this week looking for a connection for James Ralph Matthews but were'nt able to find anything.
If JRM's mother was a convict, then it would be feasible that he could disown his parentage, considering the stigma and shame that went with it.
Also, Longford is not very far from Campbell Town and there were Female Factories in Campbell Town and nearby Ross.
So after a bit of searching and finding no connection, we discounted the info we'd been given....
And then again today, the list with the couple and their children was given to us again.....
Maybe we've missed something??? ::) :o ;D
From Tas archives (TAHO NS970 Z2389) Perth Church of England Baptism register
Two baptisms, same day Jan 4 1863
Parents - Thomas (Laborer) & Mary Ann
Abode - Perth
*note that Perth is very close to Longford
James MATTHEWS born - Feb 6 1861
Franc?s MATTHEWS born - July 28 1862
no column for godparents
I also checked the Longford and Emu Bay CoE parish registers without result
James' connection to the Anglican church is noted here
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article66594990
M
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Thank you matthewj64
We can see what we are able to find re those birth records, and the information about the church is great.
We have a family story that there Is some sort of memorial to him in the church , which seems to now be a hair salon . Peg and I will contact the owner and ask whether the memorial stone, or whatever it may be, is still there
:)
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Expanding on the children of Mary Ann WALBEY and Thomas MATTHEWS...
William John WALBY born 11 July 1854 Ross Female Factory
father not recorded; Informant Geo. Everett MD Supt. Ross
https://stors.tas.gov.au/RGD33-1-32p260j2k
Conduct record '17/6/54 Fac. Ross'
https://stors.tas.gov.au/CON41-1-37$init=CON41-1-37p208 (https://stors.tas.gov.au/CON41-1-37$init=CON41-1-37p208)
Thomas Frederick MATTHEWS born 23 June 1858 Campbell Town
f Thomas MATTHEWS brickmaker, m Mary Ann WALBY
https://stors.tas.gov.au/RGD33-1-36p154j2k
Died 1885 'E MELB H' aged 26y Vic reg 2284
f Thos., m Mary Ann WALBEY, spouse Margaret GUY
Mary Anne MATHEWS born 21 July 1859 Campbell Town
f Thomas MATHEWS brickmaker, m Mary Ann WALBEY
https://stors.tas.gov.au/RGD33-1-37p393j2k
Francis MATTHEWS born 'LAUN' died 1870 aged 6y Vic reg 1924/1870
f Thomas, m Mary Ann WALBEY
possibly Franc?s MATTHEWS born - July 28 1862 bapt. Jan 4 1863 Perth Tas (baptism record)
f Thomas MATTHEWS (laborer) m Mary Ann
Female born 11 Feb 1864 Campbell Town
f Thomas MATHEWS, m Mary Ann MATHEWS
https://stors.tas.gov.au/RGD33-1-42p074j2k
Sarah Jane MATHEWS born 28 March 1866 Launceston
f Thomas MATHEWS brickmaker, m Mary Ann WALBEY
https://stors.tas.gov.au/RGD33-1-44p511j2k
Died 11 March 1867 Launceston aged 11 months 10 days Laborer's child
https://stors.tas.gov.au/RGD35-1-36p7j2k
Emily MATTHEWS born 29 March 1868 Launceston
f Thomas MATTHEWS brickmaker, m Mary Ann WALBY
Informant W. MATTHEWS brother
https://stors.tas.gov.au/RGD33-1-46p241j2k (edit moved link)
Marriage Ada Emily MATTHEWS to Bertram Basil ARNOLD 1892 Vic reg 1505/1892
Daughter Elsie Ada ARNOLD Vic reg 30651/1892
Death Ada Emily ARNOLD 1946 76y Royal Park Vic reg 1818/1946
f Thomas MATTHEWS, m Mary Ann WALBY
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With particular reference to the death of Thomas Frederick MATTHEWS (above per matthew 64), this item show that his mother had remarried.
Inquest into the death of of Thomas Matthews
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/197043844
She was by then Mrs FRASER.
Marriage between Donald (or Daniel?) FRASER and Mary Ann MATTHEWS 1883 Reg 3346.
I wonder if this death is her?
Death
Mary Ann FRASER
Year 1886
At E Hoth,
Reg 1832
EDIT to add---Aged 46
Another inquest . Mentions a daughter ADA
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/199452394
Sue
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Another bit of very speculative guesswork ::), but this could be the death of Mary Ann's second husband Donald in March 1885.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/197032419 1
Donald FRASER
Aged 40
Year 1885
At East Melbourne
Reg 12889,
I'm not sure really. He seems young.
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Victorian certificates can be downloaded fro $18 currently.
Would the death certificate for Mary Ann FRASER I have given above be worth the expenditure?
The informant knew enough to state her age as 46 years.
Maybe the informant was Ada.
If this was the correct Mary Ann and Ada was the correct Ada (daughter of Mary Ann) she would hopefully have a good account of the children of Mary Ann including James (if ;D)
The death certificate you have for James Ralph gives age at death 61.
That gives a birth year that agrees with the baptism for James, son of Thomas MATTHEWS and Mary Ann (nee WALBEY) in Tas.
which has been given by matthewj64 above.
What a complex tangle!
Sue
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Another bit of very speculative guesswork ::), but this could be the death of Mary Ann's second husband Donald in March 1885.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/197032419 1
Donald FRASER
Aged 40
Year 1885
At East Melbourne
Reg 12889,
I'm not sure really. He seems young.
That was the attraction, apparently
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article142997166
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article198307662
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From Ancestry - Victoria, Australia, Index to the Children's Registers of State Wards, 1850 -1893
MATTHEWS James, born 1861 AUS TAS
Volume OS 8, page 301
Volume OS 10, page 22
'This is an index of Children’s Registers of State Wards in Victoria, Australia between 1850 and 1893. It is culled from the records of the Department for Neglected and Criminal Children and industrial and reformatory schools of the 19th Century in Victoria, Australia.'
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This is all making good sense.
JM
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Victoria, Australia, Police Gazettes, 1855, 1864-1924
1873 Sept 22 'Absconded from the industrial school, Sunbury on the 7th and 8th instant...James Mathews, 11 years of age, 4 feet 1 inch high, sallow complexion, dark hair, dark eyes, committed from Collingwood...'
1875 Oct 18 'Robert G Eastman, James Matthews, and Neil McKay absconded from the Industrial School, St Kilda road on the 14th instant...2nd, native of Launceston, 14 years of age 4 feet 3 inches high, dark complexion, brown eyes and hair, stout build...'
1879 Prisoners reported as discharged from penal establishments during the week ending 16th June 1879
Pentridge; Matthews, James; [where tried] Melbourne; 14th March 1879; insulting behaviour; (edit to add) 3 months; [native of] Tasmania; shoemaker; 1860; 4 81/2; fresh; brown; brown
Three cuts over left eye, woman's head, MHSK in heart lower right arm, TMMH lower left arm, several blue marks back of left hand
ADD - I think its likely he would have been taught the shoemaking trade at the industrial school
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Some of James Matthews' offences 1879
1879 'POLICE INTELLIGENCE.', The Age (Melbourne, Vic. : 1854 - 1954), 1 March, p. 6. , viewed 14 Jun 2020, http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article199363834
1879 'POLICE.', The Argus (Melbourne, Vic. : 1848 - 1957), 15 March, p. 5. , viewed 14 Jun 2020, http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article5935881
1879 'COLLINGWOOD—TUESDAY.', Mercury and Weekly Courier (Vic. : 1878 - 1903), 12 July, p. 2. , viewed 14 Jun 2020, http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article59575969
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Public Records Office Vic.
Series title: Ward Registers (known as Children's Registers 1864 - 1887)
Sub-Item title: Matthews, James [Reg. no. 9477]
Sub-Item number: page 22 bottom
Date range: 1876
Public access: Open
Format: Digital
Included on the record page the following-
From the admission record of James MATTHEWS
Parents Thomas and Mary Ann MATTHEWS.
Address 3 doors from the Lady Franklin Hotel Wellington Pde, Wellington St, Collingwood.
Discharged to mother 17th Aug 1878
Another section titled Remarks gives an account of fight between James and another using knives and forks
Sue
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Enormous thanks to you all for the efforts you are all putting in to help solve this mystery.
Mandy and I are very grateful.
I haven't been on for a couple of days and just coming back in now and having a look is like WOW!
I think my brain is spinning so fast it hurts. So much to absorb and put into context.... :o
I'm going to print off all these pages so that hopefully, it will help me to digest how all this is travelling.
Hope the ink lasts......
Once again.....a big thank you to all ;D
\ Peg and Mandy xx
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Public Records Office Vic.
Series title: Ward Registers (known as Children's Registers 1864 - 1887)
Sub-Item title: Matthews, James [Reg. no. 9477]
Sub-Item number: page 22 bottom
Date range: 1876
Public access: Open
Format: Digital
Included on the record page the following-
From the admission record of James MATTHEWS
Parents Thomas and Mary Ann MATTHEWS.
Address 3 doors from the Lady Franklin Hotel Wellington Pde, Wellington St, Collingwood.
Discharged to mother 17th Aug 1878
Another section titled Remarks gives an account of fight between James and another using knives and forks
Sue
Nice find, and fortunate that its digitised
An earlier one from 1873 can be viewed by searching Provic for Matthews James 7080
https://prov.vic.gov.au/
M
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Yes, I had a look at it . Did you?
I thought not much was there of relevance to the search.
But I'm happy to summarize and post it.
Meantime I am confident we are on the right track and await the comments and decision of our two OPs ;D
Sue
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Peg and I are just attempting to print off and read your remarkable findings
Our heads are really spinning :o
We had Previously thought We had a connection with James to Thomas And Mary Ann (Walbey ) but then had to put that aside for a time, as we could find reference to all of their other children just not James
We are very excited in what you have found..and very very grateful to you for taking the time and interest In helping us
The information you have found is just mind boggling..in more ways than one
Peg and I are trying to read through it all
:)
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Yes, I had a look at it . Did you?
I thought not much was there of relevance to the search.
But I'm happy to summarize and post it.
Meantime I am confident we are on the right track and await the comments and decision of our two OPs ;D
Sue
No need to summarise, just a note of the parents' 1873 address given as 'corner of Easy and Budd streets Collingwood', as I've found this from 1873 that may be connected.
'A child named Rosamond Matthews, aged twelve, from Budd street, East Collingwood, was carried to the hospital on Monday, suffering from severe burns...'
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article170155600
M
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Heavens! what do we make of this? ???
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/58154161
Sue
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Yikes
They had ‘colourful’ lives
:o
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And is the Daniel FRASER in the above TROVE piece (posted by Sue yesterday), living at the house of Thomas MATTHEWS and Thomas' wife in 1876, the person who married Mary Ann in 1883?
Found by Sue:
Marriage between Donald (or Daniel?) FRASER and Mary Ann MATTHEWS 1883 Reg 3346.
Judith
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Hi Judith,
Yes it is.
We have found that Thomas MATTHEWS was not well by the mid 1870’s and spent time in Melbourne Hospital- I have checked a resource, but do not see his record there--. Mary Ann had had relationship with FRASER since at least 1877, when at the time of Thomas' hospitalisation, she left her home with with the much younger FRASER and all the furniture too.
It seems she was not free to marry FRASER until 1883. I suspect this might approximately coincide with the death of Thomas. I cannot definitely find it.
The incident of the laudanum in the teapot was 1876.
Sue
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It is incredible how you find this information
It will be an interesting tale if we can tie ‘our’ great grandfather in as that James Matthews :o ;D
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It is incredible how you find this information
It will be an interesting tale if we can tie ‘our’ great grandfather in as that James Matthews :o ;D
Had you given any thought to getting the download of the death certificate of the Mary Ann MATTHEWS I have listed in Reply #114? with the unmarried daughter Ada.
Of course it is all expenditure as I do know.
I, for one, have run out of other ideas for now ;D
Sue
ADDING, as a note which I consider to be of bearing, At the birth of his daughter Netallie in 1889, James was a shoemaker as in the statement on her BC as given by himself .The engine/driver/manager occupations seem to come later.
Shoemaker was of course the occupation of the son of Thomas and Mary Anne.
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:)
The physical description for the youth, James, includes Tattoo details. Is there any passed down family history that mentions tattoos for James Ralph ?
What grand researching work from both Sue and Matthew. I think that Vic cert that Sue mentions would be very helpful. Vic BDMs should list the names of children of the marriage/s... although I am not sure if they would list just first names or if they would include middle names too.
JM
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:)
The physical description for the youth, James, includes Tattoo details. Is there any passed down family history that mentions tattoos for James Ralph ?
What grand researching work from both Sue and Matthew. I think that Vic cert that Sue mentions would be very helpful. Vic BDMs should list the names of children of the marriage/s... although I am not sure if they would list just first names or if they would include middle names too.
JM
JM.
Your pathways to finding original church records and the hard to find electoral and other information
have provided our OPs with brilliant direction.
About he second name being show on the DC, I suspect it is not likely.
The given name Ralph was not on the baptism record found by matthewj. It did not appear on any other record I have seen relating to the son of Thomas and Mary Ann MATTHEWS.
Sue
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I will have a look for that death certificate...good idea, and may very well give us a clue
The Bootmaker occupation match is certainly very telling, and we can keep that in mind in following up the James Matthews you have found for us
Funnily, I have just asked exactly that question to our family Facebook group ..whether anyone has ever heard mention of great grandpa having any tattoos, or an accent
Just in case someone may have heard of anything
One of James’s granddaughters has been an amazing source of notes and memories ..thankfully that is being shared now by a group of cousins , and those memories Are kept alive
Thank you for your help
Peg and I are working hard on what you have Found and suggested :)
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Mary Anne MATHEWS born 21 July 1859 Campbell Town
f Thomas MATHEWS brickmaker, m Mary Ann WALBEY
https://stors.tas.gov.au/RGD33-1-37p393j2k
From Campbell Town Anglican baptisms (TAHO NS1190 Z2391)
Baptised 28 Aug 1859; born 20 July 1859
Mary Hannah MATTHEWS
m Mary Ann, f Thomas brickmaker
Marriage Vic reg 1182/1880
Frederick Louis HOWES and Mary Hannah MATTHEWS
'Howes - Matthews
On the 18th March, at Fitzroy, by Mr. Kinsman, minister of the Free Church of England, Frederick Louis Howes to Maria Hannah Matthews'
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article221759270
Death Vic reg 1194/1884, place C'WOOD, aged 25y
Mary Hannah HOWES, spouse Frederick Louis HOWES
m Mary Hannah, f Thos Matthews
'The friends of Mr Frederick Louis Howes,
bricklayer, are respectfully invited to follow
the remains of his late dearly beloved wife to the
place of interment, the Melbourne General Cemetery.
The funeral is appointed to leave the residence of her
mother, Mrs Fraser, Villiers-street, Hotham, this
day (Tuesday), 16th December, 1884, at 11 o'clock.
G.H. Robson, Undertaker, 116 and 118 Bruns
-wick-street, Fitzroy'
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article191472736
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That was a good find matthewj. ;D ;D
Mary Ann really had a tough time with deaths of her children and her poor circumstances.
I came across an interesting Melbourne Gaol record for a chap dated 1872.
Thomas JONES- AKA -Daniel FRASER!!
DOB 1846. Could both read and write.
Larceny. Convicted March 1872. Released July 1872.
Occ.- sweep.
The Daniel Fraser who stole the sweeping implement from John Brown in 1874 was also a sweep
1877 item involving the house furniture mentions Daniel being stout. This is again mentioned in the description of this prisoner Thomas JONES.
So a persistent criminal I think.
Sue
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Victorian certificates can be downloaded fro $18 currently.
Would the death certificate for Mary Ann FRASER I have given above be worth the expenditure?
The informant knew enough to state her age as 46 years.
Maybe the informant was Ada.
If this was the correct Mary Ann and Ada was the correct Ada (daughter of Mary Ann) she would hopefully have a good account of the children of Mary Ann including James (if ;D)
The death certificate you have for James Ralph gives age at death 61.
That gives a birth year that agrees with the baptism for James, son of Thomas MATTHEWS and Mary Ann (nee WALBEY) in Tas.
which has been given by matthewj64 above.
What a complex tangle!
Sue
Thanks for your suggestions
We purchased the death certificate today But unfortunately it had very little information, the informant being a Constable present at the inquest
So, no children listed at all
It was well worth trying , just in case it took us either way
😊
Thanks
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The purchase is so often a gamble!
Disappointing for you.
At least we can say your query on the thread has opened some interesting new lines of thinking and research for you.
Sue
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It is Sue, but a gamble worth taking
You never know if You don’t do it !
Peg and I are still on the trail, and working our way through the findings and suggestions given so generously here
It has been an enormous help to us 😊
And
We live in hope 😉
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The ideas opened up on this thread have certainly been thought provoking and confronting at the same time. It's certainly challenged our thinking and enormous thanks to you all for your great efforts and brainstorming ideas :)
Just to add further to Mandy's comments....
Mary Ann Fraser death record from Vic BDM Reg. 1832/1886
Mary Ann was living in Blackwood St, Hotham when she died on Jan 2 1886
She was aged 46.
Marriages to
1) (hard to read but appears to be...) Thomas Matthews.
2) Donald Fraser
In the column headed, 'Signature,Description and Residence of Informant' it appears to say;
Thora ?ullock Constable present at Inquest Hotham.
It also says she was born in England and had 40 years in Victoria.
Her marriage to Thomas was in Tasmania.
Her marriage to Donald was in Hotham.
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Hi,
Does Mary Ann's d.c. give any indication of any children of those marriages and if so, what info ... names or initials and then ages of the then living children .... :)
James Ralph MATTHEWS would have been 'of age' ie at least 21 years of age, when Mary Ann died in January 1886, .... and it would have been grand to have found him listed on that d.c.
JM
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The inquest document shows the constable as Patrick Fitzpatrick
http://access.prov.vic.gov.au/public/component/daPublicBaseContainer?component=daViewItem&entityId=8131949828
M
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We also have a 13th child for James Ralph Matthews and Lillian Tiffin.......
He is Kenneth Basil Matthews who we found added to the bottom a handwritten list of the children.
There is a Family Notice from Trove;
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/64596416?searchTerm=matthews%20kenneth%20basil&searchLimits=exactPhrase|||anyWords|||notWords|||requestHandler|||dateFrom=1915-01-01|||dateTo=1916-12-31|||l-advstate=Tasmania|||l-advcategory=Family+Notices|||l-advcategory=Obituaries|||sortby#
The North Western Advocate and The Emu Bay Times (Tas,:1899-1916)
Friday 18 Aug 1916/Page2/Family Notices
In Memoriam
MATTHEWS-In loving memory of our darling little brother, Kenneth Basil (Kennie) who departed this life August 18,1915..........Inserted by his loving sisters, L and D Matthews, Romaine.
Romaine is today a suburb of Burnie, Tas.
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It most certainly would have been grand, jm to have seen James listed on Mary Ann's DC ;D
Sadly that was not the case....in fact there are no children listed at all and it also says that the deceased's parents are unknown.
I don't understand why a family member was not the informant.
The cause of death is Fatty Degeneration of the Heart.
Peg
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Matthew thank you for your amazing ability at sourcing these items :) Your detective work is brilliant!
I've just printed that Inquest Report off.
I'm only guessing but would there be more than one Constable present at the Inquest and the one listed on the DC is simply the Informant for the registry?
Peg
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:'(
As there was an Inquest, then it is logical that an officer of that Coroner's Court becomes the informant for the purposes of informing the Vic BDM about the death, and its main function is to record the actual cause of death.
:) That officer's role is to inform about the outcome of the Inquest.
:) The family history aspect is not the main role of the administrative process, as it is there to serve to help identify the deceased.
:) The Court itself needed to determine the identity of the deceased before it was able to proceed with the inquest, and so the informant had no further need to seek out those very vital details that we are all striving to find now.
:) Often, in those times and still in this current era, in NSW at least, the burial proceeds on a 'burial order' of the Coroner before the Inquest process has concluded. I am confident that Victoria in that era could well have had similar processes. (Public Hygiene issues would be a possible reason) ...
JM
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Page 6 of the inquest
'and has left two children' .... one is Ada, so who is the other?
JM
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Gee jm, I'm really struggling to actually decipher those words. :o
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Errr .... I was born 1947 in regional NSW. That is the same style of handwriting as I was taught at school. NSW Dept Education changed the style being taught in their schools in the mid 1960s... ;D
Which page/pages would you like me to type up... (on this coming weekend, I have a full workload of non family history matters for a client to finish off today and tomorrow)...
JM
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Coroner’s Inquest
page 6 of 8
Ada M FRASER on oath saith, I am a Daughter of the deceased, residing at Hotham.
The deceased was my Mother her name was Mary Ann Fraser her age was forty six years she was a Widow and has left two children. ……
Sorry, more on the weekend.
JM
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Just completing the transcript of Ada's statement ;D
The deceased was my mother. Her name was Mary Ann Fraser. Her age was forty six years. She was a widow and she leaves two children. My mother has been drinking to excess for the last weeks . She seemed in good health . I did not live with her.
Sue
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For your interest.
All the below mentioned by name are deceased.
Mary Ann MATTHEWS and Thomas MATTHEWS
Child- Ada Emily.
Ada married- Edmund ARNOLD
Child- Elsie Ada ARNOLD
Elsie Ada married Walter KNOWLES
Child - Graeme Walter KNOWLES
Graeme Walter KNOWLES married 'Kay'
They had offspring still living.
Sue
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I need some new glasses I feel, cos my specs and the magnifying glass are just not working for me....
Although I actually learn't to write with nib and ink at school, there were such variations of individual style, and as there are today, there are the neat writers and the messy ones.... ;)
Meantime....any offers of deciphering are very much appreciated.... Thank you,
Peg
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Thank you Sue and jm ;D
-
I would totally agree that it is a poor and hurried hand.
Almost seems to be written as people are speaking the words.
Sue
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Yes, it is very hurried writing, yes, likely written just the once, in response to verbal prompting, you can almost hear the prompts/ questions .... It is not written by Ada, she signs the statement. It is written in the form that the particular coroner can skim, so it is written by an official/officer of the court who knows his coroner's practices...
JM
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Hi,
Does Mary Ann's d.c. give any indication of any children of those marriages and if so, what info ... names or initials and then ages of the then living children .... :)
James Ralph MATTHEWS would have been 'of age' ie at least 21 years of age, when Mary Ann died in January 1886, .... and it would have been grand to have found him listed on that d.c.
JM
Hi JM
No, unfortunately that is all blank
The informant was a Constable present at the inquest, and none of Mary Ann’s family information was noted
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We would dearly love to claim this Mary Ann Walbey woman and James the colourful character as our own. Their stories are certainly a mix of complexities, both sad and entertaining.
But to embrace them as our own won't be possible unless we can validate a connection between them all and our Matthews people.......
Forgive me because I don't know how to insert a quote, so I'll just refer to Matthew's Reply #110
from (TAHO NS 970 Z2389)
This shows the 2 baptisms in one day of;
James b. 6 Feb1861 and Franc?s b. 28 Jul 1862
with parents Thomas Matthews and Mary Ann Matthews
Abode Perth, Tas.
In all our searchings for James, this record really jumped out at me only yesterday, and its the only one that is situated so closely to Longford where James has stated consistently on documents, as his birth place.
As a resident of Tassie, I'm familiar with the Longford and Perth area and know how closely situated they are geographically.....
Is there anyway or anywhere that any more information can be obtained for this particular James?
Does anyone have any ideas why these 2 children would be baptised so far after their births, please?
Peg
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delays after birth .... sometimes the clergy is not stationed permanently at one location, due to sparse population or lack of clergy seeking to move to a remote location. Other times, some denominations try to refrain from Christenings and other religious ceremonies (eg churchings, marriages) during various religious seasons, sometimes the family has not been regularly practicing with a particular denomination and then becomes a regular attendee at church services, so decides to have their children presented to the congregation according to the forms and rites of that denomination ...
JM
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I had look on Ancestry to see if the locateable descendants of Ada ARNOLD nee MATTHEWS had any signs of registered public interest in family history. A family tree or such
It may have provided an opportunity to make contact and suggest DNA comparisons between you and them.
However I see no signs !
Sue
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I had look on Ancestry to see if the locateable descendants of Ada ARNOLD nee MATTHEWS had any signs of registered public interest in family history. A family tree or such
It may have provided an opportunity to make contact and suggest DNA comparisons between you and them.
However I see no signs !
Sue
There is one that comes up with a search for Bertram Basil ARNOLD
ADD - and also Walter Kay KNOWLES
I agree, this is a good case for DNA
M
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As you note matthewj ,the living offspring I mentioned in reply#152 is descended from Walter Kay and Ada (nee Matthews) KNOWLES.
It is probably a matter of how keen Mem and Peg are about getting the information they have spent such time searching for.
I must say, my own family has certainly had some "interesting results" from undertaking the process through Ancestry. ;D So for us, worthwhile. It all came about from submitting the test and then a seeing the DNA matches which were charted in the subsequent feedback following analysis.
Just thoughts anyway.
Anyhow, it's possibly a big step which may not be right for everyone I guess.
Sue
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Sue and M thank you ;D
I've just decided to go with the DNA thing and plunge further down the rabbit hole...... :D
Let's see where this one leads........
Peg
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I'm sure many here will be very interested to hear of any outcomes.
I shall PM to you the name of the living person I located as descended from ADA.
Sue
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Thanks so much Sue ;D
I ordered my kit this morning.
This could be interesting........... :o :)
Peg
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Trusting my Private Message was received and wishing you all the best.
In my experience, the DNA path is always interesting even if it does not answer every question ;D
Sue
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Sue thank you for the message, your efforts are very much appreciated.
I will certainly keep you updated. Mandy has just sent hers off too.......
Lets see how we go ;D
Peg
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Hi again to you all,
We have recently come across a document which places Mary Ann Walbey in Longford, Tasmania on
3 Nov 1853. Not sure what reference details I need to give, so will just put down what I've got noted.
Record Type:Register
Ship:Bristol QS
Reference:CON22-1-9
Tasmania,Australia
Date:1/1/1852
Mary Ann Walby
Transported on the Duchess of Northumberland 25 Nov 1852
So, we are feeling a bit more positive about the possible 'Mary Ann Walbey as James Ralph's mother' connection. This is the first piece of documented information that we've seen that places Mary Ann Walbey in the town of Longford,Tas where James claimed he was born........
It appears Mary Ann's sentence was extended by 1 1/2 (years/months?)
Cheers,
Peg and Mandy
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Record Type:Register
Ship:Bristol QS
Reference:CON22-1-9
Tasmania,Australia
Date:1/1/1852
That document is here:
https://stors.tas.gov.au/CON22-1-9 (page 754)
Her conduct record:
https://stors.tas.gov.au/CON41-1-37 (image 208)
Debra :)
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1 1/2 would be years, the images that Debra kindly linked show her sentence was extended '18 months'.
The jigsaw slowly sorts.
JM
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Debra thanks for that. I really did'nt know how to do that.
And yes jm, it does appear to be another piece of our puzzle.
I live in Tassie and never have I been so excited to see the word....Longford ;D
Little by little,
Peg :D
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Hi Peggle, His Death Record suggests he was born about 1861.
Have searched the Pioneers Index, 1803-1899 for Tasmania. No mention of a Matthews birth.
There is a birth for a James SMITH 14th August 1861 at Horton ( now Circular Head near Stanley)
Parents, James SMITH and Sarah MATTHEWS. There were a number of TIFFEN's in Longford about this period. Let me know if I can help further.
Kind regards
clancam37
James Ralph Matthews married Lillian Tiffen in Broken Hill NSW June 1891.
They were married at The Manse ,Sth. Broken Hill according to the rights of the Baptist Church. The marriage certificate says James was a contractor and that his parents are unknown.
Hoping that James' death certificate would provide his parents names also proved fruitless.
James died in Ascot Vale in Victoria 23 May 1922,aged 61.
It says he was born in Longford Tasmania.
His wife Lillian is still living. The children listed are;
Nettie May 32 (Nettalie May)
James Robert 30 (James Robert was informant)
Ivy Lily 28
Dorothy 25 (Mary Ann Dorothy Louisa)
Herbert 23 (Herbert William)
Walter 20 (Walter Clem)
Nora 19 (Nora Ellen)
Violet 17
Olive 16
Ernest 13 (Ernest Ralph)
Elsie 11 (Elsie Elizabeth)
Tyrill 6 (Tyrill Evelyn)
James met Lillian in Wilcannia NSW. He held an Engine Drivers Certificate according to his son Walter Clem and was working on digging dams on large outback properties. It's understood that James returned to Tasmania to start work with the Emu Bay Railway, most certainly before October 1898 as Herbert William was born there.
James' son believed that his father had 6 or 7 brothers and that he didn't know where they were.
James' first 4 children were born in Wilcannia and Broken Hill NSW.
His remaining children were born in and around Emu Bay Tasmania.
The Emu Bay Estate included Ridgley which is about 15 km. south of Burnie and formed part of the Van Diemens Land Company.
Walter Clem,known as Clem and his sisters Violet and Netallie, known as Nellie were pupils at Ridgley School.
So James Ralph Matthews is our brick wall......we cannot find a record of his birth in Tasmania.
Any help would be so very much appreciated please, before I go loopy.
Kindest regards,
Peggle